Hey, this is the moment. I'm Brian koppelman. Thanks for listening. I am I'm truly thrilled to have said Guru here with us today. This is a big deal for me during this time of the pandemic. I came across his writings his words. I watched him speak. We don't know one another but I am a deep.
Diver, as you are in certain ways, so I read a lot and and although as you were when you were a young person. I'm by Nature. I
would it mean I'm still young. What is this? Yeah, absolutely.
But in your books you talk about when you were quite young and skeptic and I am you look great. By the way. Let me say I know every that you're concerned about making sure you appear young there. You look good.
But first of all to thank you man, your your whole bearing and being but the fact that you also drill down so hard I'm a logic of all of it is very helpful for people who come to any sort of mysticism with some skepticism. The logic seems to obtain regardless of the belief system one goes in
with
see the thing is the starting point for the human mind is always a logic anything. That's not logical. You cannot digest it. This is the nature of human intelligence unless of course your kind of Twisted in somebody has drilled it into you to believe something which doesn't make logical sense or they have battered your logic in such a way that it doesn't function. It is dysfunctional. Otherwise it
It is not that you have to be trained. It is very logical or it's very natural. Even for a child that only if it is logically correct, even a little child will accept that it is true. It is true. Otherwise, no well logic is a different levels logic can evolve from a very crude level of logic to are very sophisticated sense of logic, but even even if two people are let's say having a big argument both of them think the other person is illogical.
But within themselves each person thinks they are logically, correct because that's very important for the human intellect because the in the human intellect without logical steps, there is no power. There is no stairway anywhere
do I get in sir? And so as a Stairway it's wonderful, and and I will say I'm often torn as in my in my whole life between wanting to understand things intellectually and
Wanting to kiss the Buddha on the far head so that I understand everything right? This is the battle that we miss the battle we go through and this has been my whole life this sort of thing. That's why I find your work so appealing and fascinating because it seems to me you cover all of it. So I guess this is where I wanted to start which is
The myth of the kiss of the forehead of the Buddha and this moment of understanding Transcendence and connection what it speaks to is the idea that this can in some way be transmuted. And and the question I have is can you transmit this feeling to another and if so, obviously your judicious in when you do but must the individual attain it alone for it to last or can it even in brief moments be somehow
Transmuted so that it's understood very deeply and not merely as an as an ideal to attain to try to attain
see my Essential work is not teaching.
It is a transmission always.
All this talk which people think is the main body of work. All these books are to get the attention of people who are lost in their own Logic the logic cannot explain a thing in the world actually, but still they're clinging they're clinging on to it because that's all they have. So everybody clings onto whatever they have. That's natural. What is the significance of logic?
So logical mind is very significant in establishing a foundation without a logical Foundation. If you think you're becoming mystical you will become very dreamy and all LOL and kind of mind you will become you will lose your fundamentals. So it's important to establish a very strong Foundation of logic a very not a crude logic but evolved the logic to such a point that it is almost on the edge of it cannot go any further.
Kind of logic you establish it there from their Transcendence is possible, but you don't seek Transcendence. See if your logic is taken to such a fine level. You become very light like a feather then if you have reached a certain peak of logic, then when the wind blows you will fly away you don't try to fly away because it is not that kind because it is like love you have to fall into it.
Otherwise it doesn't happen. So if one has to fall into it, nobody can ever fall into anything logically logic will not allow you to fall. So the moment you become logical Lao vanishes mysticism vanishes vanishes spirituality vanishes, in fact, everything beautiful vanishes because you will start thinking in terms of logically. What is this? What is that? Because logic can only function between two polarities if there is no to
There is no logic but mysticism means diving into that one fantastic reality of existence. So it cannot be done logically at the same time. If you don't have a logical base, you will become very illusionary.
The hard thing about what you're saying I think is when you set out and speak so beautifully and all your books. I just read Karma and I've read in inner engineering and I've read death all three books when you set out.
What the initial moments of transcendence felt like for you it is it's so appealing. It's all it is akin to holding out water to a thirsty person in the desert right you and so when you say one shouldn't want to have this wanting of attaining it.
We're still holding it out there as the water to the Thirsty person, right and this creates a tension in being able to just go there. So how should one manage that tension because it's not as if you're not putting the ideal there you are for us. So there's this golf. How does one deal with that
golf?
See the moment you say an aspiration or a desire. You can only desire what you already know. You cannot desire something that you do not.
So if you going towards something that you know in a slightly modified way that is not called transformation.
You go towards something that you don't know something that is new. That is why always when it comes to spiritual process or mysticism. We use the word Seeker. You are a genuine Seeker only if you have realized I do not know if you know where to go. Then you are not a Seeker. You're just a traveler. Maybe you are on a journey to a destination that you know a Seeker is somebody who wants to go to your destination that he does not know whatever it
He wants to know something Beyond where he is right now. See this is not an idea or some kind of an inspiration put in by somebody. This is the natural longing of human intelligence. Whatever you are in this world, wherever you are you want to be something more than what you are right. Now if that more happens you want something more this is this is where everybody
Only the sick and the dying will say this is enough. Otherwise if there is enough energy coursing through your veins, you will say something more what something more maybe money maybe wealth maybe knowledge may be love maybe pleasure may be anything but whatever, you know best whatever may be your currency, but you want something more but if that's something more happens you want something more if we go like this suppose we make Brian koppelman the Emperor of this planet.
Willie settle down
First of all, I pass on the job. Thank you. That's
too much. No.
Thanks. Goodness. Yes, I know what you mean. Yes, I know exactly what you mean. Yes. So if you even if you have the planet then you'll want the solar system. If you have that you'll need the Galaxy if you have that you'll need the cosmos because people are misunderstanding this as some kind of greed. No, this is human longing to expand there is something within you which does not like boundaries with the
Said the boundary it wants to expand the moment. You set the boundary. It wants to expand If You observe this phenomenon, you will see you want to expand limitlessly you want to become boundless. But right now you are using physical means to become boundless, but the nature of physicality is such physical exists only because of a defined boundary if there is no boundary for this body. You couldn't call it a physical body. Where is it? He sells all
Over only because of a boundary physical can exist but now through the physical means you are trying to reach of non-physical Dimension because what is boundless can only be non-physical. So when your search becomes fulfilling in the sense that you touch a dimension beyond your physical nature now, it gets labeled with the most corrupt word spiritual.
Corrupt world is corrupted corrupted word. Let me say most corrupted in the world helps both by the way, perhaps both very often right
not often bones.
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So obviously everything you're saying is true. But as you know one does get to the point, especially if someone has had enough sort of material success or some material success or Comfort or whatever it is where where the desire is actually to go deeper commer the deeper waters the and but again the desire kills you so here's the tension that I notice in in the work you mentioned in in
In the new book Karma you talked about?
How people get this idea of Detachment wrong when they think about Buddhist Detachment you talk about how that can be enervating to somebody sap them of energy and desire yet. You also talked about the difference between in inner engineering entanglement and an engagement and these things are hard to tease out for for the neophyte at all of this. So can you talk a bit about
that?
C-can you do any aspect of life.
Without involvement I'm asking.
Without involvement would you know what is the joy of food? What is the joy of breathing? What is the joy of people around you? What is the joy of Love or anything without involvement? There is no life.
Once you know this, how can you talk about Detachment if you want to detach yourself? Well, there is Hudson River.
Yes, because I believe in efficiency if you want to detach detach yourself from Life Death is the most efficient way to do it. You're alive and you want to do your aliveness without involvement. It's not going to work now essentially see because these are all in local languages in India Sanskrit language Pali language translated into English and they made it like this they are talking about
And somebody said attachment. All right, it is not about attachment and Detachment. They talking about involvement and entanglement entanglement. Is it crippling it always is crippling is involvement empowering. Yes. That is the only empowerment you have how profoundly you're involved is how profound your experience of Life Is So this whole process of Eastern teachings Buddha's and Yogi's and
Stuff going in English language has its problem where I think that is why our what I am doing is of significance. Probably this the yes why I'm one of the few people who is speaking in English language with the proper context. Otherwise, it's always been spoken in various Indian languages. And you know, India had are still has about thirteen hundred languages. So we speak in so many different ways and that being translated by Europeans in Americans become something.
It's because they are taking it word by word because in India for the same thing, we have many different words. For example, if you say love for love, we have 12 different words to win various qualities of it
yet if we just stay with this idea of desire desire, as you said if you're Desiring something it can only be something that that, you know enough to want to desire yet. We have this let's say it's
It's in co-ed and it's expression. It's not complete in its expression. But this feeling that there is the possibility of transcendence where I think most of us have somewhere in us that feeling I know I've been meditating for 10 years Transcendental Meditation, which I know isn't what you teach but I've been doing that for 10 years and and at times I I can sense or I just that's not even that you know, I'm in that place between wakefulness.
Listen sleep and it's neither and I'm I come out of it very different than I came into it. But this desire to be able to make that happen is hard to fight inside you right? You know, you shouldn't so how do you train people to to to get themselves in a place where that can happen and you're not going
for it.
See this longing to expand limitlessly is not in any one person it is there in every human being you said in most people know in every human being it's there what sort of expression does it find see if this very fundamental longing within us which wants to expand but it's going in installments it wants to become Limitless, but it's going in installments when you approach Infinity when installments
You will end up being endless counting. There is simply no other way. Yeah, so that's all that's happening. So if you if somebody is all body, let's say their main focus is their body then their idea of expansion is sexuality because sexuality means something that is not you you for a moment you you begin to experience like it's a part of you. So if it finds an emotional expression, we call it love if it finds a mental expression we can
We call it ambition conquest or simply shopping, you know, yeah, if it finds an energetic and conscious expression then we call it Yoga Yoga means Union you're in New York yoga means twisting and turning no no yoga means Union. So Union means your idea of being an individual is just a psychological idea existence really even now it is not true as you sit here. You're breathing in one part of the world.
I'm breathing in another part of the world. If we wait long enough, maybe my acceleration will come to you winds are blowing in your direction. I can see today here. I'm saying are not individual by any standards existence Ali we are not individual but psychologically very individual. This individuality is one of the greatest privileges conferred Upon Us by Nature though. We are nothing we are like a minuscule who pop-up and pop out on this.
Planet we have been given an individual experience. This is the most fantastic thing that's happened to us. We are not a group do we are trying to be groups of various kinds essentially. We have an individual experience. This is the most fantastic thing that life is offered to us. But if we stretch this too far, it becomes exclusivism that you have no engagement with life your psychological cocoon becomes a world by itself see right now.
Everything is going fine in the world today actually planet is spinning on time and no asteroids coming and hitting us all the 11 planets and not tangled up everything following the traffic lanes All galaxies in place. Nothing. Everything is just fantastic. The sun are exploding does not at all. They say it's not if but you have one nasty little thought in your head and it's a bad day.
So I am saying we have made our psychological nonsense too significant.
You we are misunderstanding our psychological space as exist anshel, we're thinking it's a reality. It is something that you make up your thought and emotion is something that you make up. If you are conscious you would make it the way you want. If you could make your thought and emotion the way you want you wouldn't be talking about the special case where there is little piece and this and that know every every space wherever you are. You would be blissed out every moment of your life. Yeah.
Your thought and emotion is happening the way you want and it must happen because it's your thought it must happen your way. Otherwise, what's the point?
Yes, I love the thing that you say which is that if you're hungry you only have one problem and when your bellies full you have a hundred problems and I understand it and of course, it's the problem of I'd say modern society. I'm sure you would say it's been there as long as there's been Society basically
this this this problem, but I do have a question about
The only time I bump on on when I read what you say and especially when I read the book death.
And I want to talk a little bit about your experience there, but when I think about my children and if anything were to befall them.
And I think about what you say about how one should manage that grief and and that we're in control of it. And it's not dissimilar from what Viktor Frankl says right in his great book Man's Search for meaning which he lived through the Holocaust but what about the idea that you would miss them like a dear friend of mine died two years ago and I think about him all the time genuinely just miss him and I'm not sure that I want do I want to not have this warm feeling about him and and and miss him.
And that's that's my question for you. Where does that go? When you master all this stuff? Where does that that's that part of
love? Go that question that you're asking is are you still human? That's a question. You asking me, right? Yeah. Well very human my in the sense. See the question is
People are in our lives so many.
Some are physically close to us some are away but this does not determine how close somebody is physical proximity and no physical proximity. So right now in your room, you're just alone there or maybe just one more person
assisting I'm alone in the room. Yeah.
Yeah. So all the others your family friends others actually don't exist in your experience. Yes, they only exist in your memory, isn't it?
Yes, sir. Yes. So the friend who ever passed away it is the same thing. They he only exists in your memory is not in your physical experience. So right now your family your friends everybody else that you know in your life none of them exist in this room. Just you you're living with their memory and your fine.
The same is true.
Even otherwise see right now, you don't know whether I exist or I'm just a computer or something.
Yes, but I do know right because we are not just Bound by the limitations of logic as you said, so I actually do I know in the same way. You know, the
question is yes, when it comes to death they significance of death to see right now your friends and family are gone somewhere. They will come back the significance.
Of death is the go somewhere and they don't come back. All right, a whole lot of your friends may not come back. They may not meet you maybe you know need to zoom and whatever else but a whole lot of us may not meet because this pandemic and whatever else so the thing is just this I am not trying to play with this thing like as if death is not a significant aspect of our life it is it is not a simple thing. They especially now
You know just yesterday my cousin brother who is one year younger to me passed away with covid. He went to the hospital and he never came out and the family his wife and child and everybody else who you know, we enquired and they said don't come no point because we are not getting the body. They're wrapping the body and sending it straight to the crematorium from the hospital. So it is not that death is not something significant in our life it is it is very significant other way.
How is it in fact, our mortality is the most significant aspect of who we are which examines everything about us. So about grief see grief means just this there are various kinds of memories within us in the sense. There are mental memories emotional memories and physical memories body has its own memory. We call this Ronan abunda in the death book. I think we've talked about this quite substantially. Yes.
If there is a physical memory in your system, and that person dies, it will leave a kind of a vacuum which will hurt physically it is not it is not a motion. It is not thought there is a pain physical pain come. Yes. So if you don't handle deal with that consciously, then it can become a wound. It can become an ailment. It can people have even died like that. You know, there is somebody they love each other so much and if it
One person dies within a few weeks. The other person dies just like that because they can't fill that vacuum within themselves. There are any number of cases like that? So it is people think they died of their emotions not necessary. It is not necessarily because of emotion because who you are right now is a collage of many experiences. You are not really an individual as such so one of the most important aspects of spiritual process is to make you an individual an individual
it means somebody who is not further divisible. That means you are one because only if you become an individual then there is transformation possible. Then there is Transcendence possible. If there are many these things collages you cannot make this transition because this is just a picture.
What is an end this individual because the other thing you always talk about is this individual or you often talk about it in the books is this there's an individual but it's not a solipsistic existence you're looking for because it's an individual who's still incredibly connected to the world and nature and who sees as an individual that they're in fact as you say at the atomic level. They're all the same. So you are still connected to everything as this individual, right?
So that is what yoga means yoga does not mean you're trying to attain something. You're only realizing something. There is a difference between attainment and realization. So always in the East when somebody becomes enlightened we say he is realized he is realized means y something that was always true today. You saw it. It was always there but you didn't see it today. You saw it that is realization. It is not called an attainment because there is
Thing to attain just the process of Life its fundamentals and it's magnitude of what it is when you realize there is no question of asking for anything more because it to phenomenal it is to phenomenal for anybody to Crunch it in their mind and say this is it because it's not like that. It is a limitless possibility you dissolve into it in such some way that is when you realize that this is all one it is not that existence.
It becomes a part of you. You undo the psychological structure. You have created and you breathe life not just air you breathe life and you realize this is all one. So when this happens to an individual human being he sense of individuality becomes a very conscious process consciously, you set up your individual nature as it is necessary to function in the world. Everybody is doing it to some extent but when it becomes totally flexible then
Handle, your love your grief your pain your whatever in a conscious manner see a whole lot of as you are a writer. I mean, you're writing for movies and plays. I don't know if you write for place. When I come to New York. One of the things that I do is in the evenings. I am always in Broadway. Yes, that's great, sir. You write plays. Also,
I haven't written a play yet, but I right I mean I'm worked I have one but I haven't written it yet. Really I write movies and television. That's what I right.
Yeah, so,
When you when you write these things you some of them may be tragedy. All right, tragic endings and stuff. Why do people go and see those sad things? Why should they see because they want a profound experience of something
catharsis. I was going to ask you about catharsis. Yes, the value and catharsis.
Yeah. See see doesn't matter what it is human longing for deepening their experiences such that even if they have to poke themselves with a pin they
Do that, but they want something profound to happen to them. Otherwise who would bear a child who would go through all this nonsense about life if they were allergic to all those things. The reason why they going through all this is seeking profoundness of experience, whether they are drinking or drugging or praying or meditating or loving or whatever. They're doing you all in search of profoundness of experience because this is all you have with life prefer when it comes to experience of life.
Life you want the most profound experience? It doesn't matter whether it's Lovejoy grief. You want something to happen to you. If nothing happens to you. That is the most tragic life. Actually if something terrible happened to you still in America, you can write a book about it and you know run your whole life. Yes.
This idea of
dissolution that you talked about dissolving. It's funny all writers have these moments right you show up. I mean people talk to you know your show up to do your work. I mean, you are a writer obviously and and but there are these moments if you're right every day.
When you have this feeling that you've disappeared you are tethered you're barely Tethered to the Earth. You're somehow hyper present, but you're not here. You're in The Ether and these are the moments as a writer that you can't cheat you exactly you said before you can't chase it. I can't attempt that that has nothing to do with it. I am merely in the act of doing what I do and occasionally this thing happens when I then because I only know when I
Into my body if that makes sense to you. I only know when I come back and I it's the greatest thing when that happens. It's not intentional. It just
happens the greatest thing Brian that can happen to you is you lost yourself. Yes. It's true though, right? I mean
when you're in this other well as as you describe the experience on the hill. My question is though. Are you
Are you always in that state this thing? I'm describing, you know, are you always in this place of blissful Transcendence? Even as you're interacting in the to even as you grieve right because as you said you are human so you must grieve for something occasionally, but are you managing that process differently than I'm managing that process?
I'm capable of grief if I wish to but it's not nothing is compulsory for me. I just I just bleed Bliss. That's my problem. Well why so is there no value and is there no value the
genuine question really truly is there no value in grief and the catharsis that comes through grief
the when you say grief and catharsis.
Anyway, it doesn't matter how dire somebody's to you. When you lose them you go through a period of grief. And after sometime you slowly come back right after that on first day. You think the date happens you think I'm never going to eat again, but after three days you will eat then you will think I'll never going to drink again after seven days. You will drink then you'll say I'll never sing and dance again. Then after 10 days you will do this. Everything will happen after a month or maybe three months depends on who the person is. It happens.
I'm not saying there's anything wrong with this. This is perfectly fine. It is just that anyway, you will come out of it or do you are you coming out of it consciously by choice or are you coming out of it by Forget by being forgetful? The I think being forgetful is a bad thing to do to the dead. I am never forgetful. I just cherish all the people who have been in my life because I have such a large family of a few million people every
Day somebody who is dear to me is dying somewhere everyday, you know at least half a dozen people have been buried that people. I know very well.
So if I sit here and were each person if I take 10 days to come out then I will be buried in grief all the time. So because people are like this because first of all they have kept their engagement with other life very limited only one person. They're loving what this means is. They have built walls around themselves just one little door. They opened our window. I would say they opened they even their window gets blocked then their will
And feel suffocated for a period of time. It takes a long time for them to crawl through the brickwork and come out. But if you are engaged with life in every possible way with every kind of life not just humans. Then you will see, you know not it is not that you don't value life people that we have lost our valuable to us only because when they were there there are wonderful moments that we shared in so many different ways. So should you cherish them all?
Or should you grieve them? Should they be the source of your joy or should they be blamed for your misery?
What is the technology though to and you can explain I know this is your life's work to help people have this technology. But what is the technology by which one can switch the impulse to something that serves them better right? This is the thing right instead of the impulse toward this grief because all of us would prefer to have the joy and the Bliss as you talked about and that by the way as Maharishi talked about right we're gonna try to find
Our way to if we can our mind naturally we'll go to the more peaceful better Blissful place, but it takes a long time as you said
and I initially I didn't think you said it takes a long time. No ten. You
said for the regular person? It might take could take three months could take that.
I'm saying that that is that is that is that guilt? They think okay somebody did you get to me - today tomorrow if I smile people think because there is a social construct if
Somebody dear to me or you is dead today. And if you smile people think we'll look at him no grief. So something wrong with this whole thing. No, you might have immensely loud them and especially if you allowed them their memories, you must cherish not grieve. They are the source of your joy, not the source of your misery. That's what it should be. So the social construct may make you a whole lot of people are grieving not only by some part of it is by
Themselves rest of it is imposed upon them. They are made to grieve because that is the natural way. So ignorance is the natural way. That is what we have established in the societies and that's what we need to change. So when we talk about this blissfulness is It's just something that you do within yourself. Is it a trick? Is it some kind of a philosophy easy to practice know the important thing is this see all Human Experience on one simple level there are many dimensions to this but the simplest ways to
Stan this is all human experience has a chemical basis to it. What you call a space is one kind of chemistry Joy is another kind of chemistry misery another kind of chemistry everything Agony ecstasy has its own chemistry. Now if if we can teach you a simple process with which your Chemistry becomes blissful.
Then you are always blissed out. This doesn't mean you will behave in an insensitive way. There is a serious situation somebody either dear to you or somebody else is dead. Will you go there and laugh and dance? No, you will know how to behave because you are most sensible when you are happy, isn't it? So, yeah, you do incense you do senseless things only when you're miserable unhappy angry frustrated. Otherwise most human beings.
When they are happy they do the most sensible things. So happiness or blissfulness does not mean you're going to lose your sense know it makes you very balanced and sensitive sensitive to life around you only when you are joyful, you will attend to everybody's needs isn't it when you're miserable your own needs her so much that you will never attend to anybody else's needs. So grief love pain Joy these
Are all different things that we create within ourselves. Are we creating it consciously or unconsciously is the only choice we have there is nothing else to it. It is nothing is happening to you. It is being done by you whether you do it consciously or unconsciously is the only choice if you are given a choice. Would you like to do consciously or unconsciously definitely consciously, isn't it? Well, there is a certain Foundation to see that everything happened consciously.
For that Foundation you may have to do a little work. That is very simple. Everybody can do it.
What is the work?
Well, we are right now presenting it as a technology we call this inner engineering that you engineer yourself. Well because the word engineering see in many ways today. The many Magics of modern world is because of engineering there may be a science behind it but science won't stand up and work for you. Somebody has to engineer something.
I'm all right. So we say let's say this building is well engineered or this machine or automobile is well-engineered means what it functions just the way I want. That's why I think it's well engineered. So isn't it very important this one this one life at least functions just the way I want if this function just the way I want would I keep it Blissful or miserable.
So I just did now I chose to keep it Blissful tomorrow. Let me see if I feel I didn't tell this conversation. I've taken you with I've taken it in the other
direction sadly, but right up until now.
So when you talk about this inner engineering, can you define earlier? You said, you know when in New York we talk about yoga. It's just a different stretching and poses that I guess in ela when they talk about it. It's stretching and poses. But in in the right kind of outfit that they have to wear that's the difference of Italy.
Yeah. It's right, you know selling the
Lulu Lala. It has to be the same as New York, but with Lululemon, but but when you
When you defied yoga and this technology can can you talk a little bit? And could you also please define for me when you say meditation right as I told you I've practiced every day. I don't miss a day twice a day. I do transmittal meditation. I know that's not or it seems to me that's not the same as the meditation that that you practice. I have two questions about this one. Could you talk about what the meditation practices that that you feel like helps?
And get here and to can they be combined? Can I because I was very anxiety-ridden and I started doing TM and my anxiety just dropped and never came back like so I don't want to lose that but I would love to do what you recommend to can they be combined or is only one useful. I'm open to whatever you say. I really want to hear
it. Say yeah, I mean I don't wish to comment about what someone else been teaching that is. It's worked for millions of people. So there's nothing for me to
To say about it, but there are different aspects to it in the sense. The first of all, let's understand this the word meditation. The English word meditation is not saying anything specific. It is too generic. Yes. So because of that when you say meditation everything is going as meditation. So there is a little problem in understanding for example here in India. We have different words for different aspects of what you do within.
Of we said Japan tapa de Rana. Dhyana samadhi. Shoonya or samyama or one might have mastered the art of sleeping in vertical postures, you know, their various things one can do with eyes closed. So what is it that you're doing to describe what you are doing right now. It is a kind of java that is you at a mantra you wait, you are to remain throw your weight. It has a calming effect on the system for sure because the simple sound itself.
We will slowly change your Chemistry. It does no question about it. So the thing is it is one dimension of practice which is going as meditation. Now everything else is going as meditation everything else we do. So we it is best that we specify what is it. So what we are doing is called a screa shambhavi. Maha mudra is a kind of a Korea Korea means internal action. There is no external action. There is no mantra.
There is no anything else. It is just an internal action. We may use the we have to use the breath in the body because that's what we have. All right. What else do you have? This is the instruments that you have. So only problem with shambhavi Maha mudra is it's a phenomenal thing lot of studies are there if you want I'll send it to you what things it does to people is quite incredible, but you need understanding you need preparation. So normally to teach a 20-minute practice we take
32 32 hours of preparation and delivering it because without the preparation and involvement it will not work. So we have much simpler practices which are just put out on the online platforms called Isha. Kriya, which everybody can do millions of people are doing it without any training. You can just listen to something for an hour and a half after that 12-minute practice. You can just do it wherever you are whichever way you are. So does that work that also works but you need to
And in every aspect of life, you're in New York City, you will understand this without investment. There is no reward or all right. So how much you invest and how much you get is accordingly it goes. So if you want a very profound experience of life you want just relief from anxiety. What you're doing is fine or you can do is a Crea you can do it along with that. There is no problem. It will work very well. They won't fight with each other. You don't have to worry about that.
Some teachers May fight, but the instruments don't fight they will work. Ok, but the shambhavi Muhammad rise of a different dimension altogether what it does to you. Let me explain to you if you sit here and you practice summary what it creates is your body's here. Your mind is out there. What is you is little away from that see there are only two kinds of sufferings in your life physical suffering and mental suffering. You do not know any other kind of suffering, isn't it?
There's always that once there is a little space between you and your body and between you and your mind. This is the end of suffering. So when you sit for the practice with eyes closed you can clearly see there is a distance between you and what you have accumulated in the form of body and mind. But when you open your eyes again, everything is stuck one into the other every day every day morning evening. If you keep doing one day you open your eyes you will see still you are the same way.
This is the end of suffering only when the fear of suffering vanishes from your life. Will you walk full stride in your life? Otherwise, every step is only a half a step.
And so how does somebody learn this the 32 hours of is there a way to learn this without coming to the issue foundation in India? Is there a is there a way to learn exactly what you're saying?
Well, if you cannot come to Isha Foundation India, you can go to, Tennessee, but
Now we have also made it online possibility. It's taken a lot of work to make it online in terms of life. It costs much more to do online. But there is a seven session online program in engineering online. This is a preparatory program. After that. There is a weekend the shambhavi Muhammad through a program which is called as inner engineering completion together. You have a certain understanding and then you have the practice and then there are committed.
Diaz you are assisting you through the program. If you have any issues even post program, they will make sure you practice goes well by constantly being in touch with you till you get it
and so that's available to everybody now they can use
that's available to everybody they can
find that great I eager to find it and try to do it and
I will I'll ask them to send you a link you can do that in an engineering proprietary and then you can go for
completion.
Thank you. Yes, I'll do it. I really appreciate it when when you were in business before you know, it's fascinating to read about your relationship with your father because someone looking at you now might think none of this stuff ever bothered you at. All. Right and but reading about you and your dad is really I think all of us can relate in some way to expectations and the way
Chocolate even though maybe it's the way you tell it is, you know, when you went into the poultry business it was in some way in reaction to to this before you were able to move on do you at that time?
Did you ever lose your temper? Did you ever did business ever make, you annoyed or will or were you just built differently and sort of never able to never triggered at any time in your life and if so, how do you relate to the rest of us who are get triggered from time to time
from the probably from the age of 13 to 20 21?
I was not angry with anybody but I was just simply angry all the time. Ah anger kept me really intense. Yes and most people are angry and then they are okay and then they're angry and they're okay. No, I'm not like that. I'm 24 hours angry not about anything and not I'm not bursting out at anybody. I'm not yelling at anybody. I'm not picking a fight with anybody that never happened, but I'm just angry.
Because I saw everything as Injustice, you know, whether it is social structures. It is economic structures political structures religious nonsense happening around you everything look like absolute Injustice and everything is a lie. And so I am just angry boiling at everything but I never blew my top. I just kept it skipped all the steam inside so
So it kept me extremely intense. So intense all the time that if I walked into a room full of people, they would all stop talking not because of anything simply because I worked in because I was like intense always bursting like that never said a thing. Actually. I was extremely taciturn those days. I would never say a thing to anybody. It was very hard for anybody to get a word out of me. I was just quite physically very active in lot of
It's adventure all kinds of things but barely spoke. So why I'm saying this is
see in the very nature of life. If you look at everything logically, everything looks like it's absurd unjust and you know, it's just not right nothing is right. So actually what we are doing is we are trying to fit the existence into the little logical head that we have but we have to do it the other way. We have to put this head into the existence instead of that we are
Going to put the whole creation into our head. It doesn't fit.
So I was experiencing that friction in my head
and can you talk about what in fact happened when you went up chamundi hill am I saying it correctly, but can is that when it started to change for you in that moment? And could you could you describe for the you know, the audience is listening to this? Who knows you knows this but I think a lot of people who are in my audience might not and I think it's an important thing to talk about for a
moment.
I'm thinking where to start see this Mysore City many many of your audience may be familiar with this because anybody who will visit South Southern India inevitably goes to Mysore City because it's a very touristy place. It's pretty little town all that it was very pretty when I was growing up today. It's again become like any other bustling City sure. So there is this hill right inside.
Town where I have trekked in my childhood. I have tracked I have camped in the hill have lived there for two three days at a stretch and I've caught my cobras there. I've done all kinds of things. We partied there anything and everything. So the culture in Mysore City, at least at that time was for the young people if
You know if we want to test our motorcycles we go up chamundi hill we want to meet P friends we go up chamundi hill if you fall in love we go up chamundi hill if you fall out we go and chamundi Hill if we have nothing to do 70.
It was like that. So one afternoon do between two. This is a time when I'm extremely busy building various kinds of businesses and one afternoon suddenly between two meetings. I had a little time so, you know, we either have to be in at some work or naturally I will be on my motorcycle. This is myself either. I am doing something or I'm on my motorcycle. They know how to otherwise once again, I'm like that these days, you know, I wrote
Across America last year, so I got onto my motorcycle. It's like the road itself takes you to chamundi Hill. I went up to a model without any intent am saying right simply I went up because I know the place so well one of those big rocks which I like to go and sit under it's a massive rock with a very stunted kind of purple berry tree because it's rooted in the Rock between two rocks. It's not grown as it.
Should its kind of Twisted itself out and a little tree but an old tree like a dwarf tree like a natural Bonsai but much bigger than a bonsai. Yes. So I went and sat there. I have said there many times, you know, I've been there many times. Actually, I've slept there during the nights many years ago. So I simply said they're mice were still open suddenly. I did not know which is me and which is not me.
What was me was like all over the place that rock that I was sitting on the air that I breathe just everything like it's almost like I burst out and I was everywhere.
I know it sounds nuts. I also thought so but I thought this lasted maybe 10 20 minutes or something. But when I regained my natural sense of thinking it was about four and a half hours for the first time in my adult life. There were tears me and tears were just impossible.
But tears to point my shirt is all wet.
I've always been you know, I said I was angry but being happy joyful being that is not a problem for me because I am young. Everything is working out. Everybody thinks I am super successful. Everybody's clapping their hands. So I'm saying this is really nothing to bother me. So being happy is not been an issue. But this is something else every cell in my body is bursting out.
Bursting with ecstasy. It's like it's undescribable. It's like that. So after some time I shake my head and think what's happening to me. The only thing my skeptical logical mind can say maybe you're going off your rocker, right? So slowly I try to talk to some of the closest friends that I have. Something is happening to me, you know, like I'm just feeling like I'm bursting all the time.
I'm hey, come on. What did you pop? What do you drink this the kind of questions? So what happened was there was nobody around me who had any sense of what it is. So I didn't have a context all I knew was I have hit a gold mine. I don't want to lose it that much I knew but I don't know what I have hit I do not know what it is. I thought you know when I looked at the world around me, I thought I am the first human being on this planet to get to this place
had you not read about I mean you were so had you not read about the boot. I know.
You've read where you've said, you're not a study person, but had you not read about the Buddha at all or understood that this was something that had been attained a few times.
No, I had not I grew up, you know, like you won't believe I was probably more Western than the Western people at that time right
now, and I knew you ran away from school and all that stuff. But so
you had no you hadn't
even read Siddhartha yet like, you know for us we all read Siddhartha whatever it is. So at least we get that version of the story.
You know, I
had to let Richard Bach that's the best hat right? That's what so
so you you didn't have language for this experience that so you had to create it for yourself the language
C. I think that is what that is. The reason why in many ways I'm standing out as a unique expression today because I had no traditional language in my head amazing. So I had to figure out every little thing so when I saw when I observed this phenomenon like if
Sit here. I think it's two minutes and seven eight hours have gone by Ike if I sit here. I don't know whether it's day or night. It just just goes away. I'm not unconscious. I'm fully conscious very alert, but time just poof like that. It was gone. So when I really paid attention, what is happening to then? I just if I can sit here without messing with my mind, I will burst into ecstasy. I realized this much
when I realized this then I made a plan because I was full of plans. I was into construction and where I Do by then I was in about half a dozen small businesses and growing them. So I made a plan that in two and a half years Sam on that day world's population was five point six billion people I made up a plan in two and a half years time. I will make everybody ecstatic because I couldn't imagine who will not want it.
Who would not want it but 40 years look at this funny and I mean, obviously you helped millions and millions of
people fight. I this is I guess the where we're almost out of our time and we didn't really get to talk about the book coughs. I have read the book Karma and one of the great things about it is you Define karma differently than the way we've always heard it said and you say in the book. It's okay if you don't
Stand and try to memorize all this stuff. You can just read it like the eight different kinds of karmic memory. But if one has ever wondered about this book is it's really just gave me so much to think about and I'm going to read it a second time. It requires. I think a second reading actually to try to get all of it. But how often does it happen?
That people who have the opportunity to hear it directly from you and then learn this technology from you.
Actually get to this place of transcendence meaning I have no doubt that you really walk around in this state of bliss, but I haven't met very many people in life who are truly able to master their inner being Viktor Frankl was probably another from all different traditions. And for me, I don't think it has anything to do with a God either. I love what you say about what the god up above which way is up.
Ken regular people really attain this is it really attainable.
So essentially you calling me a freak, huh?
Yes.
Let me just look at yourself. As you said I look at yourself. You have the best sense of humor you do that best never Thailand and whenever I land in United States, I am made to stand in that, you know in the line for the immigration where it says resident alien,
that's funny. Yeah,
sir.
I stand there and look at everybody else in the line. Nobody else fits the description except me. That's what
it well if I do too, I like like your throw jokes all the time, but the the little code to people if he says it happened that means it's a jokes coming but in the books, but but it's a long story that's going to get you somewhere. I particularly like the one about the cow dung but here but really
Is it is it as you say without Desiring it without going after it. I love what you say about. Is it possible for everybody really? Is it
possible? Well, I think you must visit issue Yoga Center for that.
And they're not just hear you say Yoga Center is not just a physical space. There are millions of people around see today. People ask me sad Guru. What is the you know, what is the greatest achievement in your life? So I said here is what tears I said. Yes, because Wherever I Go, whichever part of the world I go not a single day passes for me without me witnessing tears of Love around me.
Tears of ecstasy are on me. Yes, so I don't think there's any greater blessing than that. So there are millions of people like that. I can very proudly say today there are millions of people if they close their eyes and sit in the morning tears of ecstasy will wash their cheeks every day Millions. So it does it work. First of all, why would I invest my life into something? That doesn't work? I can do any number of things. Of course. I am I doing this because it works. All right, it is not because
Of anything else simply because it works it works for everybody. Only thing is you must be willing to do it. Somebody else cannot do it you I cannot do it to you. I can offer it to you. I can guide you I can hold your hand, but you have to do it because it can never be done to you because it's an internal process.
Yes,
well, alright, you can hold my hand. I accept and I will I can't wait I've as I say.
the promise of this is exactly what everybody wants and it certainly as a you know, the few moments of my life that I've sort of had moments like this afterwards you try to hold on and of course you can't hold on the moment you try to hold on you go
the other let me say this Brian she almost every human being
At some moment, they would have at least touch something close to that. Yes. Only problem is they don't have a system in the process to stay. There. It is like you're on a trampoline and you went up in the air fantastic, but the thing is next moment. You'll be falling down and again you may jump but if you build a staircase you go there and you stay there. So what is considered as yogic system is just this that it is a very unromantic.
Unromantic process of building staircases for yourself that if you go up there is no coming down. It's very romantic to jump up leap up in the sky and fall down.
But you fall down we must understand that because there is no process to support that. So we building a process is most important that you build a system through which you can stay
Thank you so much for this. I'm as I said at the beginning I'm deeply grateful that I came across your work during this strange year and it's been a true Comfort to me in so many different ways and I'm really glad that I got to have this conversation with you. So
People can hear the Lucidity of your thoughts the your heart and that they can go find your work. The new book is called karma. It's out in a week. I think here. I got an early copy got to read it death is all I will say we wrote a line in our TV series a couple years ago where a character says in the great expanse of time. We're already dead. And I know that's something you understand incredibly well from reading the book death and our
Impermanence and inner engineering to I'd say I've read all three books and I highly recommend them to the people listening. They are whether you don't believe in the idea of gurus or Yogi's or spirituality their practical guides and worth reading for that reason, so I'm very grateful to you for this time.
Thank you, Brian and being a yogi is not an idea. We are real. Okay. Well, I don't know you might just be computer. You said I might just be looking at
A computer image. Thank you. Thank you
so much. I hope when you come to New York. I'll get to meet you in person. Thanks.
