I am I said, it's a little Neil Diamond impression didn't no one there.
And no one heard at all. Not even the chair. Oh, I need you to hear me now
at the moment, this altitude. I can run flat out for a half mile before my hands start shaking the millions in the personal question. Now, it is a cybernetic organism living tissue over metal endoskeleton.
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Hello boys and girls. Ladies and germs, this is Tim Ferriss. Welcome to another episode of the Tim Ferriss show. This is your host, Tim Ferriss. My guest today is Sarah Silverman, can find her on Twitter at Sarah SAR. Aah K. Silverman, sir, is a two-time Emmy. Award-winning comedian actress writer and producer. She currently hosts the Sarah Silverman podcast and stars in the HBO Max animated series, Santa ink opposite. Seth Rogen, so you will next be seen opposite.
Lopez and Owen Wilson. In the feature film, marry me other upcoming projects include tbs's stupid pet, tricks and expansion of the famous David Letterman Late Night segment in the Indie psychological Thriller viral. Starring, alongside Blair Underwood. Her Memoir called the bed wetter stories of Courage Redemption and P, which went on to become a New York Times. Bestseller is currently being adapted into a musical with the Atlantic Theater Company. To Premiere in April 20, 22 Silverman, served as Creator, executive producer, and host of the
The emmy-nominated series. I love you America, which streamed weekly on Hulu and saw her connecting with people through honesty and humor on stage. She continues to be recognized as a force in stand-up comedy. Her latest stand-up special, a speck of dust debuted on Netflix in May 2017 and culminated into Emmy Award nominations and a Grammy award nomination. Her additional film. And television work includes Battle of the Sexes. I Smile Back Wreck-It Ralph Wreck-It Ralph to Ralph breaks, the internet Masters of Sex and Bob's.
You can find her on social as mentioned earlier on Twitter apps, Erika Silverman and on Instagram at Sarah, Kate Silverman, Sarah. Welcome to the show. It's nice to finally see
you likewise,
and I thought we would start with an unfinished story from my perspective, which came about when I had covid and I was isolating and I was watching multiple episodes of Comedians in Cars, Getting Coffee and I watched your episode where you had
Coffee with Jerry. And you were beginning to tell this heartfelt story. You said I went through a terrible depression. I remember my stepfather says, what does it feel like and then Jerry jumps in to say, excuse me, to the wait staff. Can I get some half and half and you're like, really what was it that much of an emergency and then the edit cut to a different segment of the conversation. So I was wondering if it's possible for you to finish the Cliffhanger because I was actually interested.
To hear the rest of that. I went through a terrible depression. I remember my stepfather saying what does it feel like? And then you got cut off by the half and
half. Wow. Yes. I can tell you exactly and, you know, it's one of the few, like, very clear memories. I have of that time. I depression came over me when I was 13 like
I always say it's like as fast as getting the you ever get the flu and from one moment to the next, you just go, you feel fine. And then you go. Oh, oh my God. I have the flu like that fast. It just like a cloud covering the Sun and all of a sudden it's dark, you know, it lasted for a few years and it was the 80s and I was put on Xanax. That's a crazy story. And ultimately was just given more and more and more until
I was 13 and taking 16 Xanax a day for Xanax four times a day. All
right. Wow,
it just doesn't even seem possible. It Sirens can't be legal to be giving a child that much drugs. My mom and my dad were kind of trying to come up with Solutions and fix things and my stepdad was the only one who just asked me what it felt like.
And it was the first time I had to think about what it felt like and I really came up with the perfect description, which is it felt just like I was home sick, but I was home.
So there was no way to satiate it. You know, there was nothing to hope. For there was no home to go to. I
was home.
Yeah, and that was where, if we place you in time, where were you at the time?
2006, healthy room for New Hampshire. 0311
up. Can you think of or identify anything that led to that wave crashing over you at that time? Is there anything that you can point to that acted as a
trigger? I remembered the moment. It happened. What was happening. I, you know, was a chronic bed-wetter and we had the eighth grade camping trip, which was a four-day.
Camping trip up Mount cardigan and I was the student leader and I cried the whole time and I had diapers hidden in my sleeping bag and I just felt humiliated and homesick. Nobody caught me with the I just slipped diapers in my sleeping bag so that I wouldn't pee in my sleeping bag. I was 12 13, but I just was painfully homesick and I
Never enjoyed a moment of it was terrible and I probably would have loved it. Anyway, it was humiliating and we come home and I just want to go home and go into bed. And I've got my giant backpack with all my stuff and everyone's getting off the bus and my mom picks me up. She was a photographer and she just was taking pictures of me like a Paparazzi and I was begging her to stop and it was just this very young.
Combination of being photographed, and ignored at the same time. Mmm. That's when it happened. And there's a picture of it. I have a picture of the moment, depression took hold of me.
It's kind of incredible that you have that locked in the Amber. In a way you have that moment captured and part of the reason I'm asking is I do not have a clear vision of when the depressive episodes that I've experienced started. I know that it seems to be congenital. My dad has had extended depressions for as long as I can remember. I don't know when my experience of that started, right? In retrospect, the kind of seems like it was ever present, but what I'd love to,
Do is actually Flash Forward to something. I read in a piece from a few years ago in the guardian. Because I'm curious about how this has kind of Lent itself to your life. I read that your mom always said to be your own best friend. Yeah. This was at the very end of a guardian interview. I suppose and the paragraph reads. As we say our goodbyes. I'd marry the dog trots off down the corridor to pay some visits. Instrument asks, if we can hug, I
and that she seems happy glowing. In fact why this is going to sound obnoxious. But mom always said be your own best friend and I really really mastered that and it goes on. Could you just elaborate on that? Because I think this is one of my lifelong quests, his to get to that point. I would love to hear you just speak more to that and maybe just describe how your mom instilled it and also how you practiced it. If that was something that you explicitly practiced.
I kind of went from. I was serial monogamist. I wouldn't go out on a date with a guy without at least putting two years. Uh, well, I got just maybe out of politeness or I, you know, I like there was one relationship. I just completely lost myself. My partner fell in love with this independent woman and I became a completely dependent codependent, you know, I got out of that relationship. So emotionally at your feet. I forgot who I was. I forgot I remember.
just kept saying like, I don't know how to be
And that was really scary for me, and I think from then on, I really got. It became really important to me, too.
Be alone and enjoy that. And I became, I loved it. I would come home and go. What do you want to do tonight? You me? I love hanging out with myself. But I also love television. I just had recently on my podcast. I had to kind of admit. I always say how much I love being alone and I do, but I'm constantly being kept company got the TV on. I'm listening to Port Stern and I've got I guess when I listen to music, I think that's it takes me to a new place that
That isn't just company but it's it is a Kampf trying to use that word because it's mine cops know
we brand we hurry
brand. Yeah. I did actually practice. I lived in this apartment building for 14 years. I just moved into my first house since growing up in New Hampshire, but I would walk in from the apartment building and there were Mirrors by the elevator.
ER and I made myself look in the mirror and give myself a thumbs up and even though it's silly because it's silly. I guess it always made me laugh. It just makes me laugh. So it's nice to have kind of inside jokes with yourself. I also became very comfortable talking out loud when I'm alone. When you first try it as an experiment. You really have to like, break through a wall. Like, it feels so odd. And now, I'm so comfortable doing it.
That often
times you talking to yourself or other people, the world in general. What do you what do you talk out loud?
I think just creatively just as a human I'll be saying my half of a conversation. I'm imagining or just be in conversation with myself. You know, I mean, I think when someone has a dog they feel comfortable doing that, but essentially, that isn't talking yourself, you're talking to another living thing. But remove the dog. And there's
There isn't a big difference in that
conversation and it in the
conversation. Yeah, and so I got really comfortable dug a lot of so much so that I had boyfriends that are like what. No nothing. I wasn't talking to you talking to myself, but I I feel like I get a lot out of that just talk because we are always have this kind of inner monologue going on. Do we? I don't know. I think we do, you know, we're always there.
Inking. Suffixing meditation is trying to clear that out. So we must be always have something in our heads.
Was that something that you always had that feeling of enjoyment or being at ease with yourself, and you just had to resurrect it after getting lost in that relationship, or was it something that you were kind of building from the ground
up afterwards? My friends always made fun of me because I
I have the opposite of fomo. I don't like one of my best friends job. He loves telling the story. I was living in West Hollywood and all my friends lived on the east side. And I just never saw them because I it was I couldn't even imagine getting in my car and going to a bar to hang out. I don't know what either. Just I just I like staying home. I love watching TV. It's not very intellectual but I, it's really my joy. There was a birthday party for to really
Most friends not even a block away and I didn't make it and he was just like, you're unbelievable. But when I do go out I am social and I love talking to people and meeting new people and I am a people person, but I just really love. I love being alone. And I I've had friends, especially now really annoyed with me that I'm not connecting with them and I feel busy because when I have free time,
I want to take a nap or watch TV or snuggle with my dog, and I love my friends and I do drop the ball.
A lot. I have a lot of friends and say why is it always me calling you? And I feel terrible because I love them and I think of them and I keep track of them, you know on the social media, whatever this is, these is asshole excuses. I'm really not good at staying connective.
Well, it's makes me think of friend Jason freed talking about the opposite of fomo is Jomo, the joy of missing out.
That. Yeah, that's his that's his
take. I mean, there's nothing better than someone canceling plans for me and just like
surprise gifts resin with. So you mentioned you mentioned watching TV, are there series that you have re-watched multiple times or watched multiple times, or if you had to? Is there anything that jumps to mind is something that you would absolutely
replay? One order is my safe space. I just something about this softcore murder.
You know, kind of like commedia version of things ripped from the headlines. Like, not right. Not true crime, but that
homicidal but
approachable. Yeah, you know, you know, you don't wanna see blood, you know, but it's and I it's all Broadway actors, you know, playing cops and lawyers and I love watching the same actors playing different roles, you know, and just I think it comes from this, which is when you're on the road. It's a constant Wherever You Are.
Are you can find a Law and Order and it's like my what do they call it in the my totem? It what, you
know, the movie out of. Yeah, it's totally it. Yeah, it's like a totem of sometime sometime. You know, it's something I can
always, you know, I used to bring the same like plaid blanket that I'd shove into my bag just so I could put it over the hotel blanket and just have something just consistent. Something that feels like home. So I think
Law and Order has just always been that and no, I'm it's okay, buddy. Like I'm discovering. I'm loving Colombo, went to need a, like, from the 70s and 80s the classic. It's so good and just bizarre and but um, and I tend to not watch comedies even though I really should. And when I do, I'm glad I did. But I think as a comedian, it feels stressful. I don't go, like, oh, this would be relaxing. You know, what, either it's
I don't like it or I like it and I'm Angela. Oh God. I wish I wrote that. You know, but but I do end up liking it and one show that's on that. I watch the whole first three seasons twice through is in a waiting for the fourth season, and it's a comedy, is what we do in the shadows.
What we do shines, which is it about, or
what's the effects? It is. It looks like a reality show has a very, it's because it's one of those like mockumentary style, but it's about these three vampires living together in a house in Staten Island, and it's very like, kind of show about nothing like just about everyday life getting along, but then they have unbelievable.
Effects. So to see that in a format, that's like reality TV. The contrast is so fascinating and it's just brilliant.
That's amazing. I didn't realize that I knew that name sounded familiar and I didn't realize that it was made into a TV show because it started as the New Zealand. Mockumentary. I knew that I recognized. I know
what's he and taika waititi Marae lemon.
That's right. Yeah. Yeah, that was outstanding. I had no idea that.
It had been made into
its own Magic. The movie is so great. But I have to say, I will, I love the series even more. There's just something that actors are unbelievable and it just it brings me a lot of Joy. It doesn't give me that comedy stress. For some reason. I think I'm growing out
of when you say comedy stress. What does that mean? Like yours? It's just I think analyzing analyzing it as it plays out in front of you because it's your craft. What do you mean
by comedies? I think so. And I think I've said that a lot but I think comedians
Kind of go. One of two ways. Judd, Apatow watches everything comedy that comes out podcast movie TV. He just loves consuming. He loves comedy. You know, it's like, it's like when you watch like a Scorsese film or a Tarantino film, where you go, like, oh, these movies are made by someone who loves movies, like, I think jet of what is like a vat School.
Then there are other Comedians and I am not proud that I fall into this that just it's not relaxing to watch Comedy. It's relaxing to watch order mystery or you know, like for me, I like Thrillers or murdery stuff, peaky, blinders, you know, stuff. That's just not in my world. Something that I can just get lost in
when you wrote.
Your Memoir bed-wetter stories of Courage, Redemption, and pee. Was there any part that you found?
Particularly or very cathartic to put down on paper. I mean you've lived so publicly shared so many stories. Was there anything that just felt different or freeing or cathartic when you put it in the book or the opposite? Extremely difficult to kind of put down
the first couple months of stuff. I wrote I had to throw away because it was
I was writing the way. I thought a writer should write instead of just. Yeah, the pros of how I talk me. However, that is using your voice, you know, it's like the first time I did Fresh Air with Terry Gross. I remember, I was like, well Terry, you know, you know, and then I was just like, who is this? I felt like I had to. I grew up. We are wanted to have that voice. I felt like I needed to. So these moments where I found myself.
Self trying to.
Do or be what I've seen before. What is normal and then I had to just throw it out. I was writing with such furrowed brow. You could see it. Then just kind of almost being an investigative reporter in my life, interviewing my parents and seeing how those stories their perspective on things were the same and where they were different and kind of be a detective in my own life to tell.
Be able to tell a story and realizing stuff. I had never realized, you know, having to deconstruct.
I always thought, oh god. Well, you know, deconstructing, comedy just ruins it, but it kind of doesn't, it's interesting. It then to me. It's fascinating. It's my, it's what I love and writing that book made me realize really see the trajectory of how I became a comedian because
I had a dad who thought it was hilarious to teach his three-year-old swears and then I wouldn't kill those swears at the market and I just I remember the feeling of yelling it out and all these grown-ups.
Giving me this wild approval, despite themselves and that
failing.
I just became addicted. I remember my like, arms itched with Glee and of course, I chased that shock became my currency at three and four and five and it just made so much sense. Looking at how I depended on that. And then after my first special, which was a stand-up movie, actually, I didn't get a special.
With anyone. But the guy from Interscope was like only go move your unit. And Jesus Is Magic, was my first special. It came out like a movie after that. I had to start over. That was my first special. So it was the best of everything I had ever done, you know, kind of assembled. Now. I had nothing. I had done it as a one, like a one-woman show for a few years and then it came out in like 2004 2005.
So I had been working with all that material for so long and then I just kept doing it a little bit and then I was like after it came out. I just didn't know what to do because I had a real identity crisis and it was it was a great moment of growth in a way because I
People didn't want to see this, a material. I had to write new material. But in order to do that, I had to disappoint audiences. I had to start over. And now, people came to see me. I wasn't just comedian number 7, at The Improv lineup. People were coming to see me, but I had to start over, but they expected was to be shocked and surprised, and I wanted to give them that. And I didn't know how to do that because they had an expectation.
mission of it now, but I had to realize was
Comedy dies in the second guessing of what your audience wants to see it was never how I had started. And now I find myself in this place where I was like, well, if they're expecting to be surprisingly to surprise them, but then then I'm giving them what they're expecting and and I just had to stop and I got very Inspired Real, you know, by watching Chris Rock, who does a special? I mean, he's such a pro. He goes out on the Roadie runs. It runs. It runs at tweaks that you know, all those things.
And then he starts at 0, and he goes to the Comedy Cellar or wherever he goes, and they bring him up in the audience Goes Bananas. And he doesn't take on that pressure of wanting to give them what they want to see you. Just what do I got? He brings it down to zero. He he bombs and maybe one or two or three things. There's something there, it's work and you have to be brave enough.
Enough to eat a bowl of shit and try, try new stuff and see where it goes. And then some stuff that bombs you cut and some stuff that bombs you still believe in and there's something here. I like this is it could be just missing a beat or an and or an article of a word or I'm setting it up too much room. So I'm not setting it up enough for but the point is, you have to be brave enough.
To bomb again and start over, even if you're famous, even if people come to see you and, you know, they're going to be disappointed because a processes, you can't avoid it. You can't write a monologue at home and memorize it as there's. Not how Comedy Works. The audience is half of it.
And there's a I would have to imagine a toughness that you develop through repetitions of that attempting to Rise From the Ashes Like a Phoenix.
X with 0 just eating shit sandwiches over and over again. I have read and I actually don't know the details on this kind of deliberately because if I knew all the answers to the questions, I was going to ask though be very boring for me. I would love to hear a bit about your Saturday Night Live experience because I've read that helped you to become tougher and I don't know if that's true. And I also don't know the details of what happened. But could you perhaps just describe what your experience
was?
I think what I meant was it really was like a boot camp. And I remember going in thinking. Oh my gosh. I have this job where I can dream things up, and then they're on television and didn't necessarily go that way, but it was a great experience and I learned so much and it was still
Very much a boys club to use that old. There were not many women around and it was just a very different time. It was about to really change but it hadn't yet. I did like it and I got along with everyone and I really shined on Thursday nights for punch up. That was like where I could really, I felt like I what is punch. Oh, uh, so Thursday night. You take the writers room, you sit around?
A big table and this is how it was 94. And yeah you go through all of the scripts that are now chosen to be on the show. And we you punch him up, you know, over there could be a joke here. Let's figure out there. Maybe there's something better for this, you know.
Just go through it and see, try to make it better as a group. Yep, and boy, I mean, it was their worst computers then but we still wrote on legal pads, and gave it to a room of typists. I remember my first day. I was put with these three guys who were hired right out of Harvard and we were all 22 but I didn't go to college. I was a stand-up and they kind of put it together because we're the kids and the newbies.
Or whatever. And I spent the whole day with these guys, and at the end of it, they, I mean, they thought I was a type, but they just assumed I was a
typist.
At the end of the
day, you know, we're hanging out. We're getting to know each other in a go. So where you would type in this dirt and I was like, what I'm a writer like you. And it was just I always think of how it was for me to be a woman in comedy.
As how it was for me to be a woman in basketball, because I played basketball growing up. But not at school. I played at the Y. And so I always played with almost all men and I still will do. I haven't played since March 20, 20 plus a pickup games with almost all men. Sometimes a woman will play in, its great. And I always demand that were on the same team because I hate how they always go. Oh, you will each take a girl you like
Played by whole life, I play, you know, but that feeling of going to pick up games and the you can feel guys rolling their eyes or the burden, they feel that they have a girl on their cameras and having to prove yourself so much. And I like using this analogy with other women in comedy or other women like basketball with or every shot has a woman that you shoot and Miss is like missing a hundred baskets.
Because you feel the weight of the guy go. Oh, and maybe I'm putting that on them. Maybe it's true. And maybe I'm putting it on them and either way it shouldn't be in my head but it is and you carry this weight and it doesn't help you and I always say sometimes especially in New York. I love just watching the pickup games and stuff and there's always maybe there's a woman playing I go.
Watch how many times these guys shoot and miss and shake it off and shoot again and shoot again and shoot? Again. That's how you get better. You cannot take on this. Oh, I'm a woman in a guy's game. And I that feeling that if I shoot and Miss, I better not shoot for a while because I better just work on setting picks and it really taught me something suddenly taking the focus off of myself, which is really a self-centered.
Centeredness and watching the guys and watching them fail. Shake It Off, shoot again. Shoot again and go. Oh, yeah. Yeah, I can keep shooting if I have a shot. I should shoot. Does that make sense at all? Is an analogy. I don't
ya know. It does make sense. It does make sense and did take you. So my understanding with the with the essence of God. I completely forgot. What got your medicine. No. No, that's what that's okay. No, it's okay, baby.
I think it ties to the basketball in the sense. That is true that you got fired by fax or Let Go by
facts. I got a call a three-way call from my agent, my manager and I it never occurred to me that I wasn't coming back. I was already writing sketches. I was like and this year's going to be better. It's going to be great, you know, and and I go on both call me follow, you know, what? Wonderful news must this be and of course I was fired and they said that.
They ain't got my fax. I mean that's fine that they got a fact, that's the business. That's how it was. Will they let go of a lot of people that were had their first year, but I remember starting out comedy and guy comics giving me advice and they go on the best woman. Comic is Paula Poundstone and there was probably true. I love her, but they go in. The reason is because a guy could do the same material and it would work.
And I bought it. I bought that. I mean, looking back. I'm just like that's so absurd. That a woman comic couldn't talk about the experience of being a woman. The conceit was yes, the audience is Half Men and half women, but the women are in dates and they only laugh as the man last, so your audience is the men.
Never thought about Paul.
It's absurd and stupid. Yeah, that was what it was.
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We'll see you mentioned. You do not taking on this burden of for lack of a better term, kind of hiding say, as a woman, taking a shot in a basketball game if you happen to miss right in in the case of SNL, because part of what's impressed me, does impress me still about, you is just your longevity in the craft. I mean, it's really, we know it's remarkable. It's really remarkable and it's not altogether. Comment at all.
And I'm curious after the SNL did, were you able to dust yourself off and just get right back to work quickly. Did it take a while to recover from us?
All right. Remember, please tell me more. I have a Polaroid picture. I took of myself and I've saw it when I was moving. I had cut my bangs, maybe an inch just insane looking bangs and I and it just says no confidence on it. I wrote and I
I just remember thinking like, am I in Show Business and he like, I didn't know where I fit in. I didn't know who I was. I didn't know how to just, you know, and eventually I just put my head down and kept doing stand-up and it led me wherever it led me. I've really never made a plan in Show Business. I've never thought, like, I want to do this, or I, I know this is maybe not, it's not advice at all, but I've never set goals for myself.
I just always kind of, I don't know. I love the stuff. I do. I think of myself as I do odd jobs and like when I couldn't do stand-up, I said, I well, I was I have to do a podcast. I'm what am I going to do with all of this? But I do think part of the longevity is just being open to be changed. What I learned after that first, special that I talked about that.
Really changed my life along with therapy, but to be brave enough to bomb to change and no longer have the same fans to disappoint people and just go on the trajectory I go on. There's a line in a song and a musical Sunday. In the park with George. It's a song called move on and she says,
The choice may be mistaken. The choosing is not you've got to move on and it it does for you. I feel like you can thinking of that. It's the whole play is quite Brilliance about art and life.
But that it doesn't matter, the choice. It doesn't make a difference. You're going to wind up where you're going to wind up, but make one because it can be so paralyzing. I think.
Do not wanting to make a mistake. And and I think what I learned from that basketball analogy as well along with a brilliant quote by Charlie Kaufman and it's being talked about a lot. Just in general is how essential failure is and what you do with it, which is not a New Concept anymore.
Is this it? I'm just pulled it up failure as a badge of honor. It means you've risked failure. If you don't risk failure, you never going to do anything. That's different than what you've already done or what someone.
Else is
done. Oh, well, I never heard the whole thing. I only knew is don't fear. Failure, failure should be a badge of honor. It means you risked failure. Look at all these, you know, that the concept of cancel culture and I can argue either side of it, passionately. But another thing is, if you think of yourself as a risk taker in comedy, for instance, the thing that makes it a risk is that there's something to lose. Is that there's consequences. Yeah. You can't just
Say I'm risky and then be angry. If there are any consequences, you don't, you got to take it and be changed by it or disagree with it. Maybe. But wonder about it. It's like when you get notes from one network, and I know there must be a I know this sounds very specific to you know, show business. But of course any job where you have a boss when you get notes from a network and you go this stupid, this is not even there's always something that they're on.
Some germ of something, the spirit of that note that you need to figure out because they're onto something. But they maybe don't know how to articulate it.
The first sentence in that quote by Charlie Kaufman that I don't have any context for words, do not simplify and then it goes on to do, not fear failure and I wonder what that refers to
find the whole thing. So, inspirational writing advice, from Charlie Kaufman, it's on YouTube. We're going to have to watch it. It's
I heard and of course, I never just Googled the whole thing. Now. I'm very excited to
watch.
Yeah, it's 41 minutes. I will link to that and there's Charlie Kaufman's. Got all sorts of good quote. See who you are really sit in your life. And in your work, tell someone out there who has lost someone, not yet born someone who won't be born for 500 years. Your writing will be a record of your time. It can't help but be that. But more importantly, if you're honest about who you are, you'll help that person be less lonely in their world because that person will recognize him or herself in you and that will give them hope. All right, Charlie Kaufman. I'm sold Charlie.
And who was as I understand it, one of modern Cinema's most celebrated writers with work, including surreal. Fantasy Being John, Malkovich cerebral sci-fi Eternal, Sunshine of the Spotless, Mind comedy, drama adaptation, and extraordinary, animation, and no ma Lisa only use. I don't know. That one. Well, alright. Well, we will put that video. Inspirational writing advice from Charlie Kaufman 41 minutes.
You know, I have spent way too much time on the internet with this kind of accidental audience or unexpected audience. After my first book in 2007 and I've seen in the last, say, four or five years some really disconcerting patterns emerge. Just watching this, this large for me. It'll are Jewish following. That's the Imagine. I've seen a lot of well intentioned in you.
Some cases well-educated doesn't really matter, but thoughtful, people get pushed to the polar ends into these extremes or push themselves or just been led by algorithms. Who knows, you know, makes me think of and I could also be getting the facts wrong on this but it was either Fahrenheit 451 or 1984 one of those. Lovely dystopian novels. That makes me think of book burning. In one of them. I probably 40 Fahrenheit 451 and
There's this kind of Monolithic State and the firemen and so on. But the book burning started with the people, the people themselves were burning the books and the kind of righteousness porn and reputational assassination that I've seen even among people who would think to be of the same kind of tribe. This just say, listeners of. This podcast is really disconcerting to me and I'm curious to know where you think this goes. Does it burn itself?
Out in some fashion. Does it get increasingly bad with higher and higher consequences? Because you're I mean you're watching a lot of these these events unfold and you're noticing them if you had to Hazard a guess, where do you think this goes? Right? Three years from now two or three years or four or five years from now. What do you think? What do you think? It looks like
I'm gonna have to say a very solid, I don't know, but, you know, I just
I couldn't begin to guess what the future holds for us. In terms of I think the sooner people realize we're all totally connected and you're fighting with yourself. Basically the better. Yeah, but I do think there's there were at really like the pendulum is has frozen in both.
Yeah, and there are almost a mirror image of each other enough. Real fucked-up way, as much as neither side, would want to see that. Yeah, what is your answer to that? I mean, listen you, when you leave social media for a while, you realize it's not old world. It's not even most of the world or half of their friends, a very small part of the world, but it's given us this thing where we in real time can see how like almost everyone. You know, it's what
like everyone feels and it's
I don't know. I don't know where it's gonna go from here. Listen, unless Facebook and YouTube radicalize people. Bye-bye, algorithm. Hey, you know, it's not like they're set up to do it, but greed has made them do it because it inciting rage is, they found very lucrative.
Yeah, Twitter too. And so you see a headline.
And the headline is designed even reputable places. Now, their headline is clickbait. It's so,
One, small piece of a story that is the most salacious.
And maybe you, if you click on it and read it proves to not be true at all or is wildly minimal to, but who clicks on it and reads it. Very few people, they're reacting to. So it's just these. These little beams of light coming out at your face to upset you and make you angry and whoever you are. It's designed just for you.
Guest on the podcast, very bright guy who has the most endurance of any guest I've ever had Balaji srinivasan. He talks about the media, you consume having root access to your brain. Wow, the same way that you can have root access to a computer and therefore control the computer, right? So if you, if coding is scripting, the behavior was just called behavior of computers, then media is basically the code.
Code that gets installed into humans. And so when you have algorithms on Twitter or anywhere else for that matter YouTube, right? That are kind of, self-perpetuating by reinforcing to greater and greater extremes, because they're more effective for producing clicks. Of course. I'm you know, I'm not a Nostradamus. I don't know where that leads, but I do see, you know, more and more examples of the kind of hatred and vitriol online.
Halting in people getting doxxed. So having their physical addresses, and personal information, posted in the hopes that there will be some type of violent consequence, and I really do and I think it's also just my nature. I come from a long line of Warriors. So I think that I have to be aware of my predisposition to go to worst-case scenarios. I don't know. There's some part of me that maybe perversely just
Get something out of imaginative
enough people. And I think myself included and I really see it like in my stepmom. And and so many of us that worry is
Even though we don't want to be in worry, we don't want to be worried. It's our comfort zone because it's familiar.
Do you experience it yourself or you do you see that more so and
yeah, I do, I do. I mean all these things I know and talk about hers purely aspirational for me, you know, well your myself chocolate. See my mouth. Well, I mean, that in a
sense their aspirational but I'm still impressed by this sort of success story around.
The beer on best friend. I think that's very rare. I think that at least in.
You know, my kind of concentric circle of friends. I think that particularly if people are driven and I think, even though you may not have a five or ten year or 20 year plan. I mean, I think most people would consider very successful at what you do. A lot of that drive seems to translate to people being very dissatisfied with themselves or hypercritical of themselves, or at least they seem to correlate. So, what advice would you give somebody who's may be prone to self?
Modulating, would you have any advice to them if they're just, they're not yet at a place where they maybe, they, maybe they don't even know, particularly like themselves but they use work as a way to occupy their minds. So that they're distracted from
that. I think, in terms of the self-flagellation, I see it. And, and I don't mean this to add to pile on someone, who is constantly putting themselves down in their head or out loud.
But it is not modesty. It is self-obsession. Unless those thoughts turn into change that make you into the person. You would be very happy to be, then it's very masturbatory. It's, you're not seeing there's no room to observe and watch and be delighted and amused by others. It's just all self. I have friends that are Comics, that cannot be alone. They are out until 4:00 in the morning and only go home.
It. They can drop to sleep, and it worries me.
Why do you think they do that?
Because being alone is terrifying for them, being still being alone, being alone with their thoughts is terrifying. And listen. I admit to you. I, I love being along but alone with my thoughts, is a whole other thing, you know, I mean, I am often, but I still entertain myself with television and radio and
Radio, I just think there's when you accept yourself the way, you accept any schmuck on the street. There's use of a lot more room for other stuff. I had a therapist who said, look in the mirror less, and I found it to be incredibly profound because it, yeah, you know, instead of, like, just know that anyone of us looking the mirror does not see what other people see.
Not that. What other people see is? What's important. But we cognitively distort what we see in the mirror so much. I mean, look at the whole thing with selfies and I see it the same as people who Hackle and I know that sounds really weird connection, but hecklers to me whether they're saying something yelling something out, lovely or mean or whatever it is. It's interrupting, you know, like a show.
And the same with people who are constantly taking selfies. I feel like the subtext is the same for both witches.
I exist, right?
And you know, that's ultimately what it is that we're all.
Life, is this existential crisis of, like, what is it to exist? We need it to mean something.
I completely agree with you on the and I say this, as someone who I think, is pretty self-absorbed as evidenced by my depressive episodes in the past because it is because it is the sort of the me, me me, II song, when you're either suffering from depression or anxiety. You're kind of Trapped in a self-referential.
Right. So I
think I think I'm seated. It's not you know, it's awful but it's consumed to be
consumed and I think that it's been hard for me is realizing that but not being able to extricate myself from that Loop. This might be a good time to just ask.
In what ways therapy has been most helpful to you.
There's Good, the Bad and the Ugly among therapist, right? So I'm wondering how has therapy most helped you. Why is it been
helpful besides that? It's another perspective on your life and how you see things and how you relate to people. Listen, there are plenty of terrible therapist out there, but it's always bizarre to me that
People will drive 10 different cars to see which one they like best. And if you're lucky enough to be able to afford therapy and it's becoming at once less and less accessible and more and more accessible because there's a lot of stuff online and there's a lot of stuff. I mean the best therapist I ever had charged $100 of session. This is recently, you know, up until very recently, but I mean, that's not nothing.
It's for therapy is pretty good, but the it's become more and more accessible. And I just think if you have the luxury to be able to find the right one for you do that. I found the right one for me and he just changed my perspective in a lot of ways and I you want some Greatest Hits. Yeah, is it
like I mean if you've got yeah definitely sounds like you have a couple locked and loaded. So
he said, um, have you ever predicted anything that's happened in your life. I felt well, yeah, your mom I guess not go.
We're looking through a
pinhole. You
don't know what's coming up. Next. We have a fear of the unknown. That's why we tend to, and I'm very ritualistic. And I it's hard to get me to try new things, actually.
And I try to break out of that, but we have a fear of the unknown. We have a fear of change, but like the truth is, you should be just on the edge of your seat. What's going to be next? You know, I don't know. So I thought that looking, we're looking through a pinhole. We don't know what's coming next. I like that. He changed my perspective in a lot of ways. And listen. I see this when I think about when I went into depression so fast.
And I think about it in beautiful wonderful ways as well. But I mean you change your perspective by one degree and the whole room looks different. The whole world looks different and that's neat to me.
How often do you when you've been in The Sweet Spot? Whatever that means from a therapy perspective. How often are you doing sessions? Is it once a week twice a week. Once every two weeks? What is your
Cadence? I'm very
Erratic with it. I'll go once a week, if I'm working through something and then I'll just sometimes I'll go like months or a month or something and be like, you know what, I need to talk this out, or I've gone for many years regularly, and I kind of go.
Starting actually with a new therapist. And I was my second session on Wednesday.
So why are you starting with the new therapist? If you had a great therapist.
He's so wonderful. Well, I could just say he's retiring but I actually left a little before he retired and I love him so much, but I'm not giving him a path to Redemption. Where would I key? Doesn't need to be redeemed. I just
We had a session after I lost my friend to covid that. I was my writing partner on this musical, the music part, and I had my first session with him since spending three months in New York. During the first three months of the pandemic and I told him the whole story if losing Adam and just seemed, it was also he texted me. Oh my God, I think I have this thing, you know and then like, oh my God, I'm still sick. I can't get a test anywhere. This is
Daisy. I'd like a really high fever, you know, and then, and then not getting any more texts, and he was in the hospital. I'm in the hall. Then I get it takes, I'm in the hospital with cool bit. Yeah, and then the text stopped and then his girlfriend was reaching out to us, and then he was done because it was so early. They put on a ventilator and he was anyway, I tell him the whole story.
And I guess I don't have to not say this because it's my therapy. It's you know, yeah, like I feel like but um, he was like, well, what did it say on his death certificate because they're calling everything covid. Now, you know because they pay hospitals, 30,000 dollars to call something covid and like he's like a covid desire and I don't care what he is.
But he didn't need to bring it there and I was pretty positive. The thing to say was, are you okay it or gee? I'm so sorry. And now I feel like someone online who he didn't say exactly what I needed him to say. And now I'm angry at him. I'm not angry at him. I love him and I'm so grateful for him. But I just needed to detach with love and I have a very close friend, who also knows him said just you know, talk to him about it or whatever and for
Reason, I just don't feel, I don't feel angry about it. I just don't, I just want to kind of move on. I had so wonderful years with him and I don't need him to say. So, you know, listen, he's gone. His own thing and I'm so grateful for what he taught me, but I just kind of moved on.
You can get a lot from someone and a lot of value, and they can do something you really disagree with. And yeah, the latter does not necessarily negate the former, right, which is hard to sometimes. See out there on social media because
it's like, yeah, it's, it's
Odd. That we seem to be living in a world where people just expect you to. If you say something that wasn't what in their mind, what you should say.
They're just so disappointed and I, you know, I've always maintains personally, I go. Hey, I'm not. Everyone's cup of tea and it's okay if you don't like what I say, it's okay. If you're not no longer a fan. Yeah.
I also think I had the author and an incredible right by me. She's just an incredible historian and historical thinker, Doris Kearns Goodwin on the podcast. And I asked her if she thought leaders like, say in Abraham Lincoln or an
Our or Churchill could exist could actually be elected in today's day and age. And she said, no, because the veneer of perfection has to be the facade. Has to be presented in such a way that you know, if any of the kind of foibles and flaws of many of these leaders had been transparent or were transparent in today's day and age, there's no way they would get elected even though in other respects are really effective. So
oh, it's
Definitely. I don't know why today is the day. I've decided to Showcase all my dystopian. Concerns about the next five to ten
years. I didn't people,
but the Sarah Silverman podcast. I think you alluded to, at least one of the reasons perhaps that you began the podcast. But why did you decide to start the
podcast? The pandemic happened and I couldn't do stand-up and I just felt like where do I put all this? And just made sense to do a podcast?
I've been resisting doing a podcast for so long and
wide. You been resisting
it.
Because like everyone was doing it. I wasn't an OG like you. Oh, you know, and I really liked the idea of being able to talk to to hear from people all over and I am shocked by the people who call from so many other countries. I didn't even occur to me, that is just so
So America, me and I didn't occur to me that this would go to other countries and how I just cross my mind. So that's been really neat. But just that people from all over, are really calling in. And it was, I was hoping that would happen. And, and, and that I get to its voicemails every once in a while. I go, I need to talk to this person more and we'll call, but it's mostly voicemails and the, but people will call in and follow up, and I've become kind of
Connected to this kind of community, but it's always changing. And it's so different from my stand-up. I would, first of all, like, sometimes I listen back to the podcast, I go. There's no evidence of a comedian. Like, who do I think I am. Like I you know, but then I try to remember Joy before I go on, I go stopped, eight years old serum, but it's so it once I take a little puff at night and then if I listen to some podcasts, I go. Who the fuck do you think you are? It's like embarrassing to me, but then I go back and do it again.
Again, and people call in with questions. And I really feel like I can help or at least, say what I'm thinking, you know, it's morphed into this thing that I didn't expect and I didn't really know what it would be. But I knew, I just wanted to talk and hear people's thoughts and opinions and then let that be the trajectory of the episode.
How do you choose which to speak to because you use, I was looking at your Twitter feed. You, you have an enormous, New York City, plus size.
Twitter following like 12, 12 point something million and you use speakpipe, but with that sized audience, you must get an absolute Avalanche of different voice messages. How do you choose what to, or as well too?
I've got two producers on the show Raj and Diana and they go through all of them and they bring me about 20.
And you know, I just, you know, they know I want different, you know it because these becomes very we all think alike kind of. So, I'm always looking for another perspective or if you know anything and they kind of know what I would look look for and we listen to them the night before like tonight because I record on Tuesdays and it comes out on Thursday and I just go. Oh, yeah, that's good. You know, I kind of talked through like what I might say and I just yeah.
That one and I pick. I probably picked like 18 of the 20, you know, and then that night or the next morning. I'll kind of think about it more and make like an outline and just to have thoughts in my head and then we record and sometimes I respond the way I planned. And sometimes I don't at all, I go a different direction, but we I always record way more than we need and so either throw stuff.
Away, or if it's Evergreen, you know, could be used in other week. It's not about like the news of the this week or something. Well, we might save it because then, I'm when I work on the play and March March April, May, I'll probably be able to do some episodes in New York, but I like to stockpile some that are brand-new, but our could be a month from now or so. And maybe didn't want those exact details, but that's how it basically how it goes.
Them down. You
kidding. I love exact details. Yeah, I stopped. I stockpile exact detail. So you're in good shape.
So it's yeah, it's interesting because with my stand-up, I'm a very slow homeowner. I'll work on a joke for months months months, months, maybe even a year, do your and, and I own it so, slowly, even though it may sound kind of in the moment, you know, I'm working on it inch by inch. And on the podcast. It's very
A immediate, it's messy, I'm loving now, being able to now that I can do stand-up more and more less and less than more and more demanding.
They're very different. I like doing odd jobs. I like the doing different stuff. And when they converge, it's kind of neat. Where if I say something I do that could maybe be a joke
as anything from the podcast popped in an unusual way for you. Wear one topic or one episode unexpectedly. Got particular traction has anything been really surprising for you
overall? Yeah. I'm always surprised. Well, you know,
at first, I was I usually pick like three little Clips to to post on social media and
Do we go with what works best or do we go with what? You know, it's because it's a quandary because then you become,
you get you run into the same problem with second-guessing the audience on stage, right? So this is yeah. I want to, I want to dig into this because this is an important choice, right? Like do you use what you think is going to get? Kind of the cheap Applause? So to speak or like the easy layup or do you use something else? How do you make
that? But the irony is an almost as irony, but
the I would post those clips that I thought were funny and a like, what? I don't like I post something. I go like this is like, you know, that's that's opinionated thinky hippy-dippy granola, you know stuff that is so also me but and
People.
Really responded to the more serious stuff. There's some a couple communities have become like, motivational speakers and I find it incredibly obnoxious, but then I'm like, how am I different, am I doing about? You know, but I and I think maybe that's why because people always go. Why do you always say you're talking out of your ass or whatever? I go. Because I am, I am, this is me in process, trying to make sense of life. And so my answers, there's no Authority in my answer.
Other than my own life experience, and, and having not died. I've lived all along while I hope to keep living a while. And I have learned a bunch of stuff. It's a fine line and that I would be horrified. If I saw that, I was had become that and I think that's why I and I I really spot when people qualify things a lot and now I'm doing it right now and I do it. Always shows up guys Riga. Well, I don't know. I'll talk it out of my house. What do I do? But I
I feel like it needs the qualifier just to prevent me feeling like, I think I, I know best. Yeah. Well, my mother was like that, she and I've become my mother, you know, she couldn't help. But I mean, there were not enough comments cards in the world for my mother. She had so many, she felt she could correct. So many things in just in the strangers around her or like, I mean, it was almost like a horror movie like you could pick up a book.
There was a book she had that was like a guide to Santa Barbara and it had like in pain Corrections throughout like grammar, anything. You know, she but now I've found that I've become that person that I'm like, I'm helping like she would always go. I'm helping, you know, and I'll go oh oh, but you know, I was that like 7-Eleven and I kid, you know 19 year old kid or something was buying like orange soda and Doritos, and I just couldn't.
Control myself and I was like really I've almonds are the same price. IE. This is what you're feeding your body. You know, I'm just like, oh my God,
I'm helping I would love to ask you. They were there few questions. I'll tell you what, I'll give you. I'll give you a twofer and you can pick which one you want to answer first. Okay. So the first is how you chose to become involved with I smile back and the other is what you learn.
Into or any kind of lessons taken away from Garry
Shandling. I'll just do both of them in order. Yeah.
I smile back. It was a book written by Amy koppelman and she had sent it to my agent at the time who's a real character. If you ever want to interview an
agent.
I don't know why you would want to, but he's fascinating named Michael Kiedis and he sends it to me and he said she wants you to play this part and I was like she does and I read it. And and it was really interesting and them. She and her friend Paige.
Dylan wrote the screenplay and then they were very. I said I'd do it and they were really collaborative, and we worked on a lot of it together, and it was very hard. I mean, you know, I remember thinking, yeah, this is a really heavy movie, but it doesn't mean it's not going to be fun. Yeah, I'll act.
And that it's the reality of the moment and then they'll say, cut will have, you know, be fun. And it was I it was a good experience, but it was so I didn't know that.
You know, you have to have your 10,000 100,000 hours in. Tom Hanks, seems like he can just I always heard he jokes around and he's you know, what? L like the belle of the blade. Oh, he's like funny and all this and then they say action and he's Captain Phillips. I just thought out yet. I don't have the experience to be able to access everything like once. I access, those kind of things. They're just on my lap, you know, so it was so, remember, our friend would call, and say, how's it going on? And it's
I don't, this is really.
Bummer, you know, like it did. I just I wasn't able to just separate, so it was just some prize, but I'm so glad I did it and it was an incredible experience. And that movies really Relentless though. You know, I even what's the movie Gabourey? Sidibe won, the Oscar for precious, even precious had moments of relief, you know, I just know this will be just like too much but what I, it was really fun to do. And, and Amy koppelman just
Directed her next book that was made into a movies, which is really cool. Anyway, so that was
that I want to say two things, real quick. So the first is I thought you did an outstanding job. I think a lot of folks have exposure to your comedy, of course, and you as comic and so on, but less exposure to you in dramatic capacity, and I thought you did a really outstanding job and the Really nuanced job. So I wanted to say that end. I've
I've had dinner with any before, she is a very smart, very observant, fascinating woman. So I wanted to, to also encourage people to check out our work, Garry Shandling.
What did I learn from it? You know, I can't say enough about him. And really, I think anyone's any for anyone who's listening, please watch Judd, Apatow's two-part, documentary on him.
What is it? Is it the Zen Diaries of go?
Yeah,
oh, it's so good. And and but Gary was
So generous and so he we played basketball at his house every Sunday and there were stars, you know, big celebrities that played. There were need a writer's assistant Pas but play good, didn't matter. He assembled this ragtag group and they were all his friends equally, you know, like I said like they're there are m c is two scripts that a writer would show to Gary and he'd
You know, he put so much into helping writers helping actors. Everything. He learned the hard way. He really offered up to us on a silver platter and some things you gotta learn the hard way, but so many things he he really I learned about.
Silence about taking, you know, that in stand up. Even just the the moments in between the words and
the currency in that currency sounds like a veto or the specialness or that that you're saying something in those moments just as well. And and to not be afraid of them to not feel like you need to fill that empty space. And it's interesting learning that for stand up. But then in life, you know, I hear my dad when we talked on the phone now we FaceTime and it's different. But when we talked on the phone, and there would be like a dip in conversation. He'd go. Um,
Um, my mom that fear of silence or, you know, is is so real and people for, you know, and I, I learned that from him, it's very interesting and, you know, he was very, he was a studied Buddhism. He was a Buddhist. He was he, but it wasn't because he was naturally that way because he was riddled and he needed it. And that's all of us and trying to just be
Be honest and get to the core of, you know, he kept a journal but you know, I think your comedy notebook is half journal and he would say just be Garry Shandling whatever that is on stage. You know, we're like all these things and Judd helped clean out his house and stuff and and would post pictures of a lot of his journal pages that are
I don't think he would be upset about it. Worse are so revealing and so helpful. He wasn't perfect, but he was in search of and in just even learning that are watching that in him was so fortifying and
helpful. Here's a question that is sometimes directly leading to a dead end, but that's on me. So I'll try it. Just be Garry Shandling made me think of this. So if
If you could put a message, any message could be a quote, could be an image, could be anything really on a billboard metaphorically speaking just to get it out to hundreds of millions. Billions of people. What might you put on that. Oh
bird.
Two things come to mind.
One is the story about Fred Phelps. Who started the Westboro Baptist Church, you know, they
don't know this story.
Oh, so he started the Westboro Baptist Church. You've got it interview, Megan phelps-roper. Is she? Alright, do up in the Westboro Baptist Church, and her story is amazing. She's amazing her changing and the ways in which she didn't change that. She was
Was this beautiful person but to both grow up in something and believe it with your whole heart. And, and anyway her stories. Incredible Fred Phelps her grandfather started the Westboro Baptist Church. And, of course, these are the people that show up to funerals with signs that say God hates fags, and you know, the there those people and people showed up at his funeral with signs that said sorry for
Your loss. Mmm. And I just thought that was the most beautiful.
Act of protest. Remember so, and for some reason, I feel like that on a billboard would be useful for everyone in some way.
I don't want to chip too much your time, sir. I'm having a great time. Is there anything else that you would like to talk about? Is there anything else you would like to comment on any suggestions you'd like to make anything? You'd like to point people's attention to that comes to
mind. I'll say what my auntie. Martha told me, grab Joy, where you can get it, grab Joy, where you find it, I was single and I was in DC, and I was supposed to go to La for
Home to La for a friend's memorial service.
Comedians kill themselves a lot.
And I kind of wanted to go back to New York to see this guy. I was dating and I feel guilty. I because go to New York, grab Joy, where you can get it. Your friend is gone. You can honor him in your mind. You know what? I didn't other
ways. Yeah, although we can get
it. Comedian memorials are really fun.
I
can't let that sit. So tell me more what makes them fun?
Because you're easy. I find funerals to be pretty fun. Usually, you know, even if you're Sabe, right? You're with a group of people that loved this person talking about the greatest hits of who they were and how they impacted everyone. And with comedians. I mean, I mean, Gary's Garry shandling's, Memorial was amazing.
You're laughing and crying, Kevin Nealon, for lack of a better word closed, the show the memorial and he was sobbing, and he was killing. I mean, and it was just all real and true. But afterwards, when everyone goes, their separate ways and lives life is when you grief punches you in the face, you know, when you're at line at Ralph's, you know, two weeks later, but, but you're just hearing the funniest stories in the Great.
Things they wrote and said, and it's a citizen celebration. I think that's a, you know,
Sarah Kate Silverman. Where's the Kate from?
I don't know II. Think I was I was supposed to be named. Kate Sarah Silverman. And my Nana said, no, I know someone named Kate and she's, I don't like her something. So they got aren't wobbles say, Sarah Kate. And that's the Amazing Story of my life. If I was boy, if I was a boy, I know I was going to be John Robert after the Kennedys. Wow, John. Well, I
think Sarah Kate works. I like it. Yeah, Sarah Kate Silverman.
At Sarah, Kay Silverman on Twitter. Thank you so much for taking the time. People should absolutely check out the Sarah Silverman podcast, where each week, you can find Joy, where you can get it on. Bite-sized audio morsel at a time. And your book. Your first book Memoir is the bed wetter stories of Courage, Redemption and P you. It is from
2010 sickle. The musical bad weather and it's
The musical is called the bed wetter. And it comes out preview, starting April at the Atlantic theater in New York. And that is based on the book. But it's just the year. I was 10 and I'm not in it. There's a little little pint-sized of incredible me. I mean, the actors is get incredible.
Well, congratulations. I know that's been a long time in the making. I know that your dad has been counting down the days as as best I can tell.
Yes, he has. He's like how much longer do I need to stay alive?
And it's here. It's here in just a few months. Fingers crossed and thank you so much for taking the time sir. I really enjoyed the conversation and getting to know you not just through doing the homework and research with conversation. But having the conversation itself, and I hope that we get to have another conversation some time and appreciate it. Me too.
To and for everybody listening, we will put links to everything in the show notes and you can find that at Tim top log / podcast. And until next time, thank you for tuning in. Hey guys, this is Tim again. Just one more thing before you take off from that is five. Bullet. Friday. You enjoy getting a short email from me every Friday. That provides a little fun for the weekend between one and a half, and two million people. Subscribe to my free newsletter. My super short newsletter called 5:00 Friday, easy to sign up.
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