I remember looking at the Bay Bridge for my window and I was like really sick burnt out, you know, whatever they call you being fatigued all the works. Like I went to some Doctor Who worked with me later on it and I didn't have the strength to walk over the Bay Bridge and throw myself off. Otherwise I would have and I think it was the next night or the night after that. I remember getting up and I was like, I was miserable. I was like I can't do this. I got to get out of this. I mean again, I get out of this or die trying that's it. I can't be in this space.
And I walked over to my desk and I have a journal that I write in and in there and I still don't know where I came from. I sat down and I wrote about it myself now. I do believe in the power of personal commitment. Like if I make a commitment to myself I'm going to keep it that's something I've had for a while something. I've trained myself for a while but a vow. I've never been a vow to myself. I don't know where that word came from and then it was a vow to love myself. It came in the moment. I am not a guy was
King about hey, you know what? I need we know what I really need. I think I need to love myself that never occurred to me once but yet in that moment. That's what came out. If you're ever in a place where you just need to get out of the makeup various of write it down put it somewhere we can see it every day. We are reminded of your promise to yourself and then do your best to live it you'll fail horribly every day, but you'll get better and better do your best to live it every day. It's really that simple that power of that personal commitment to yourself. That's Kamal Roth account and
This is
the Rich Roll podcast.
The Rich Roll podcast greetings Seekers. Hello and welcome to my podcast frequency. I'm rich roll good to be with you today. I hope that you are maintaining your health your sanity your immunity your Equanimity as our chaotic world is spinning off its access all good here. Can I read an email? I'm going to read an email. This one is from dr. Heidi.
So Connor and it goes like this I'm sending you this note after completing a seven-day stretch covering the ICU as a pulmonary critical care doctor in Boston, Massachusetts. Wow. How about that several years ago? I somehow stumbled upon your book Finding Ultra. I had been a three-sport athlete in high school and then continue playing two sports in college. I kept up with running during med school and was able to complete a marathon but really used running as a way for managing stress unfortunately working.
Hours during my subsequent medical training and when I became an attending physician led to reduced exercise poor diet and worsening stress over the years. I became increasingly unhappy and burned out with work and felt truly unhealthy. I read your book and it inspired me to make a change. I became predominantly plant-based and gave up eating meat. I'm a die-hard New Englander. So haven't been able to give up occasional Cape Cod seafood or Vermont cheese yet. Oh Heidi
will
work on that. Don't
worry. I bought a Peloton which has been a Saving Grace. I've gotten into hiking and took up meditation. I even got back to running from time to time. I've been able to lose the 20 pounds that I crept on over the years and actually feel I'm in as good a shape as I was in my 20s. The reason why I felt compelled to write you is that I think you have had a major impact on my life getting me in the best shape. I could be in to help take care of my patients and myself during this covid pandemic. It's been some of the most
A heart-wrenching times. I've experienced taking care of patients trying to support their families and my ICU staff and also very physically demanding. I haven't been able to do another Marathon or any other great athletic feat yet. But in some ways I think getting through the terrible times we are experiencing is my Marathon. Thanks again for all your inspiring thought-provoking and humorous podcast. Keep me company on my drive in and
home from work. You
are helping more people than you know,
take care of Heidi. Wow.
Heidi thank you for the kind words, but mostly thank you for your selfless service on the front line. So I can't imagine what you're currently enduring right now. And please set aside any kind of self flogging that you're doing over not being able to take care of yourself physically in this incredibly stressful moment. I'm sure we're going to get through this and I'm also
sure that
what you are currently enduring Dwarfs.
Hunting a marathon and I have no doubt that you will succeed in whatever you put your mind to whether it's a marathon or anything else. So thank you again for sharing that story speaking of metamorphosis. I've got nothing but love for stories of personal transformation. And that is perhaps the heart the most predominant theme of this show the underdog the every man meets unforeseen obstacles. The odds are stacked against him or her that
then is brought to his or her knees compelled to seek deep within and rather than Buckle or perish ultimately leverages that experience to evolve to evolve into something stronger something more deeply self-actualized and and authentic we call it the hero's journey and it's this irresistible archetypal narrative that speaks to that connects with
the mystical embedded deep within all of us. There's just something indelible and powerful and Universal about these stories and over the years. I've Had The Good Fortune of Hosting many flavors of this hero's journey from Olympic medalists and Arctic explorers to professional dirtbags all sharing their version of the hero's journey their story of physical Triumph, but here's the thing Life's greatest. Journey isn't physical it's not
Free soloing El Capitan or crossing Antarctica or running Ultra marathons in Patagonia. Ironically. It's learning how to love ourselves and nobody embodies this specific genus of the hero's journey better than my new friend Kamal raw pecans now to be clear Kamal has more than earned his spot as a respected Adventurer. He's a guy who was brought up from humble beginnings.
Things and has gone on to Trek to one of the highest base camps in the Himalayas. He earned his u.s. Army infantry patch. He walked five hundred and fifty miles across Spain and meditated with Tibetan Monks in the Dalai Lama's Monastery and professionally this guy's done it all to from launching successful startups to managing Venture Capital funds Kamal has spent the better part of his career working alongside some of the smartest investors and engineers in Silicon Valley all
Writing books in his free time but his most transformative experience. He would say has been the simple Act of learning how to love himself. So
why is this
so hard for us? I got a bunch more. I want to say about that and come all but first, you know what time it is.
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A hundred. Okay. So I first heard about Kamal by way of his frequent appearances on our mutual and beloved friend James all teachers podcast and I can't quite put my finger on it. But there was just something really compelling about this guy that left me wanting to know more about him. So I got a hold of his book. Love yourself like your life depends on it. And here's the thing.
I'm all about spiritual and emotional growth. But I also have a pretty deep profound aversion to schlocky self-help and despite my many fears my insecurities my profound imposter syndrome. My people-pleasing Tendencies actually never thought I had much of an issue with self love. So I freely admit to a little bit of initial skepticism about this book, but I have to say that it really
Ignited something in me. It's simple. It's very straightforward. But also profound in its Simplicity I suppose and it's led me to this realization that I actually still Harbor a lot of unhealed wounds and it sets forth all these practices that I found not just helpful but actually transformative in many ways. So today we unpack the hero's journey of Kamal rawal cons. It's conversation about his
trials and his triumphs is divine moment the path of self-discovery that followed and the near-death experience that he recently survived. It's about how we learned to love himself the simple routine. He deploys to maintain it and why this practice is essential to living in examined self-actualized life of presence and purpose and contentment for the stoics and the Skeptics out there who are listening. I implore you to set aside whatever creeping.
You may be feeling right now and really give this one a shot with an open mind and an open heart final note. This was recorded pre-pandemic. So there is no mention of coronavirus but nonetheless it's a conversation packed with Timeless wisdom that I think you're going to find it very helpful in this unique moment kamal's vulnerability is refreshing. I love this conversation. I'm enjoying my newfound friendship with him and I really hope
that this serves you
so this is me and come all the wrong times.
Yeah, I've been very very grateful Harper one. They just they really
and look they published my favorite book of all time The Alchemist.
Yeah, you know so like to walk in the office see that
poster then one day like my posters got to be Vite, you know, like it's pretty
special. It's a crazy thing when you go to the publishing offices and you see the cover of your book or you see it like on the wall with these other authors that you Revere. Yeah over the years. There's something really magical and special about
that it
The years I remember just walking into public like when I was going to you know, because I've written other books as well. I'm novel so forth and going with my agent to Simon &
Schuster Random House harpercollins. All
these like, these are I grew up reading and knowing these names had to be there and it's just offices full of nothing but
books right? It's
beautiful and as a writer to be there, you know, it's it's
what you dream of. Yeah, right. It's cool also because
You went from this self publishing phenomenon into traditional publishing rather than the other way around like a lot of people there. They'll do their initial books in a traditional Manner and then when they develop an audience, then they'll self-publish, but for you to have this kind of viral phenomenon almost 8 years ago right with that, you know, sort of truncated limited version of the book and then to develop it with a traditional publisher is
Aang yeah, it's not something I planned on. You know, like when I did the original version it was Tiny right? I mean, but I had a bit in Acts. I could have 90% what I wrote right and I put it out and I didn't think I was and I've said this enough, you know, like I really didn't think I was going to signing copies. Like I was an unknown writer, you know, I was just a Silicon Valley guy but a book called love yourself like your life depends on it,
like look I failed but look I learned to love myself. So life's great
and and it took off the thing took off insanely change.
My life like showed me just a power of my words. Well, let's
back it up a little bit because it kind of began with our mutual friend James all teacher who's actually coming here tomorrow and you saw him this morning and randomly are yeah. Yeah.
Yeah, and I promise to him that I would actually write write it and if he and if he liked to have a publisher otherwise I never would have
I was didn't it began like you you had as you say in the book like you gave
You got up on stage at a conference and had kind of an epiphany and made this decision to share openly and honestly about what was really going on with you in front of a yeah, a group of CEOs in the like Senators congresspeople Pentagon officials and
CEOs and media types and I was given two minutes to talk. Oh give a talk call if I could do anything and other people were doing this talk to and I had to you know how to talk prepared and I got up and I like right before.
I'm like this doesn't feel about this doesn't feel right. I got it. Like I don't want to do I'm going to share just share with them what changed my life this this past
summer our fall and for two minutes. I just rambled
about how I changed my life. I learned to love myself how it's a saved me changed my life how you know, like literally transforms everything and I got off the stage thinking.
Okay, dude, that was down. That was insane. What did you just do like, I was trying not to look at the faces of the people. I wasn't used to giving talks
then.
And there was a line of people waiting to talk to me afterwards. It was insane let people like this is why I came to this conference to hear you like say this
was it just that they found the vulnerability refreshing or what do you think it was specifically that connected
I'm guessing I was probably the only one who spoke that open at that conference first, but one but I think it was something about just a reminder, you know, like sometimes a reminder and I share with them like look this was this
Be over we all know we've all been told love yourself. Right? In fact, it's kind of annoying and cliche. Right what I told them was like look, I was a bottom and I figured out a practical way to do it for myself, you know, because I needed it, you know, it was the one thing that I felt something inside me said this is going to save you and I just went with it and figured out in a very practical, you know, I'm a Silicon Valley guys. It's looking for practical methodical way that just that and working for me. So it's like I got the secret it's not
Not like a lever yourself. Here's love yourself step. One, two, three, four, five Bingo, you love yourself, you know, so I think I shared briefly quickly than the steps and then they all wanted to know more and like how to do them. So that's when there was a line afterwards and then when I would share of her friends how to do it. We like all these questions so which is why I originally wrote the thing down to just okay. I'm just going to give out copies to people right right because he
wasn't it was it you gotta you got an email that you forwarded a James and James was like this. You should write a blog post.
I'll post it on my site. You were like, there's no way I'm
doing no way man. No way. I'd send an email to a friend who's going through a hard time just describing
briefly that like the Practical. Yeah aspect of
and it really helped him and James like, oh I'm going to publish this on my blog and this is before he had his podcast. Yeah. I'm like, I was like, no way all my friends read this. I'm terrified like I but he's like, he was really he's responsible for this happening cuz he's like look this you could write about entrepreneurship. You could write about Fitness all these things play.
People can but this the most important thing you writing about a you sure you know, what I'd no one else is you gotta put this out there.
He's usually right about those things. Yeah, and I think he's been proven historically correct in this case, but his sweet spot. I mean, he's basically created an entire career about, you know around Having the courage to share your, you know, your failures and your vulnerabilities and he obviously identified something special in your story and that kind of
Dovetail, you know right into the sweet spot of the kind of things that he likes to share about.
Yeah, and you know, I still didn't think I was going to do it. So I was like tell you what, you know, I've been I've been training myself to be a literary fiction writer for like over a decade was building startups, right? I wanted to write literary novels, you know, like I was just studying like crazy. I was like, well, let me write this down as a little practical almost like a primer or something and and I don't know where like we're
how we decide that if you liked it, I would self-publish it at that time, you know at Kendall was out and like, you know, they were like all these success stories happening there and I did it it took me a month and I sent it to him and I didn't hear from a few weeks and I was like, oh thank God. He hates it. I can move on like blah blah blah because like he's like, I love it. I'm gonna write a blog post about you publishing it but this day so that means I have to publish it by that day. And so and so I remember when I am friend of mine reached out to me. She's like Mom, do you remember her Terror?
Are you were when you press submit and I'm Kendall like I think I was calling people's like I don't want to do this. I don't want to do that. So it does best thing I ever did was click that button. Yeah, you know
and and it was a very short kind of truncated version of what you know, ultimately you've recently published right? Well, he's kind of like a practical
manual. It was more of a primer here. Is it because I was scared. I didn't know what to expect. It was just like a little thing. I was going to give out to people to friends right who I knew needed it because like you understand
this when you find something that works that makes you better you can kind of feel a responsibility to share it, you know, you really do like if that changed my life and so you when you especially when it's yours when you come up with it you like I got to share this because I'm not you see the good impact it has on you and then you see other people struggling like wait, I think I have a solution here. Yeah, you know at least try it at work for one human being it's on the human mind the human heart. You have a human mind human heart. Try it out. Right and it's a very basic.
Thing but when I put it out, I held back a lot, you know because I was scared. I wasn't expecting it and I want to share all my stories or whatever but this exists actually not because of me this exists because of readers. So I did something I didn't think I was expecting to sell a lot of copies. So I put my email address in the book. I was like, hey, if you got questions email me guess
what people
emailed I have God knows how many emails, you know, a lot of a wonderful beautiful email saying how change people's lives saved their litter.
He saved their lives, you know, like in the moment a reading the book they decide to not kill themselves. I'm any of those and then just like how you know changing their lives any of the confidence self-esteem all this it all rises from the same thing, you know, and but there were questions and after six seven years. There's a whole, you know, because I read all the emails are respond to them is there's a pattern, you know, this themes and I was like, look I held back and I realize I need to put this book out if
I'm going to have it out. I need to have it on a real way. I need to I need those questions resolve. I know what those questions are coming up is because I held back so I gotta stop holding back. Yeah, and so that's what I set out to do
and that's why I took seven years. Yeah. Yeah to what do you attribute the virality of the original Self published version? I mean, you still like half a million copies, right? Yeah, it's crazy at that. It's start with James's blog or like how did the
word get out? Yes. Start with James is Blog then people
got on their own and started tweeting it Facebooking it. It was all over Facebook people just sharing on Facebook Tim Ferriss tweeted about it that it got him out of a funk. So they were all these people like to do it. But here's the interesting thing. You know, I've built companies in Silicon Valley. I know the online game very well. Like if you if you get a nap if like if you look in AB someone to invest in someone's app, right you look at the data now you can game metrics you can buy downloads you can game Even book.
You can buy on books and all that right but with this what happened was it was just it came out as having like this it shot up came in a little bit and then just stayed for seven years like that. Mmm, just up there consistently that is when you know, you have something special for a product. Does that whatever it is it hit something. You know what it was. It was I'm not a self up. It's a self-help book written by a guy who's not a self-help guy just a guy works on himself who's lived a bit. You know, who?
She shares his personal Journey exact and exactly how he did it
and it's very easy to read easy to digest. It's very plain spoken on purpose. Yeah. Yeah. Well, I want to I want to work our way up to getting into the nuts and bolts of the book but lets, you know, take it back a little bit because I want to better understand what got you to this point and and to kind of contextualize the whole thing. So you grew up in Queens Jamaica sleeping mom.
We're rap, Jamaica
Queens. Our rap came from uh-huh. Yeah, super from there. And and and my sense is that you're always like your own person like, oh, yeah. We'd like to be a snot not an easy person to control or Corral. Ya had a mind of your
own. Yeah. I was always a pain in the ass that way. Uh-huh. Cool came
easy.
It did it was boring.
I never felt like I fit in anywhere, you know, I never feel like I was a shy kid. I just read like crazy. You know, like I read a lot books are my refuge as a child. We went through some really rough stuff like really on point where homeless, you know how to abusive dad. There's like you want to start listing things we went with him and it was rough and books of my refuge. That's what I escape to and which if you think is amazing and
Write books, right? But yeah, that was the childhood but I always try I've always done my own thing. Like even when College had a full scholarship and after year or left and joined the army,
I know that's such a strange Choice like, you know walk me through that decision tree step one. I'm 18
step two. I'm in college for a year. It's a state school and you can get straight A's without really going to classes just partying bored out of my
My mind I want to challenge third is step 3. I'm an immigrant child. I want to serve this country you feel that, you know people often forget that about the Immigrant story. Just how much how grateful you feel to this country, you know for being a part of it and and I wanted to be challenged and I wanted to just so all that put that together and it just walking by Recruiters Office when they do decide to pop in and they had it goes good sales pitch
effective marketing.
It works man. Oh, there you are. One by one Marines Navy all of our right Air Force all of them. And that's what was what was it that put the Army over the top. Yeah. That's a great
question. Right? That's a great course they are because they offer the most money for college after because I still knew I wanted to go badge occasionally is very important to me, but I knew I didn't want to go to a state school. I wanted to go to a smaller private school and to be able to afford that also Army would give me more money because they also know that they are for money they said, okay. I'll tell you what.
You know, they give you this test called the a square which is decides what specialty you can choose I got 98 and 99 percentile so I could choose anything then like but if you choose the one that people who fail take it will give you more money. Just what does infantry your cannon fodder. I was like sweet but on top of that if you take a harder one mountain infantry will give you even more I was like sweet
that's just signed up for that the hardest thing with the most Financial upside, but
you know is great. It's like
The way I look at if you're gonna do something, you know do the do the do that all
inversion. We want to drive a truck another part of the Immigrant story. You know, I presume that, you know on some level your parents immigrated here to you know, try to try to create a better life or a different kind of life than you know, what was being experienced and in India. So what's the phone call, you know back to mom like when you tell her, you know, sexually and you besides me
think about it.
It the life in India that had was like middle class upper middle class.
But there's something about the pull of America that draws people to it because it is there's something special about it. That's it wasn't like escaping from poverty or anything like that. You know, there is a there was a draw to this country to freedom to be able to do anything go anywhere. I think that that is also part of that immigrant story. Although we didn't have that when we came here and I was pretty quite the opposite in the beginning the phone call to Mom was a very
Testing one from college Mom. I'm thinking about joining the Army.
Pause okay think carefully week later mom. I joined the army
that was and and her reaction silence or violence. That was it silence. Uh-huh. I mean I was at the age, but she couldn't do anything. Yeah that she knew me, you know, you had already established a pattern of doing your own thing. Yeah, and and she had a healthy dose of like I can't control this kid anyway, so she was like this bike is going forward with
She was actually I remember she told me a little discipline. Yeah, right. Yeah, so boot camp then
right boot camp foot Benning Georgia the middle of summer. Uh-huh. It was it was I look back at that as actually like a one of the defining experiences of my life. And I'm so glad I gave myself that gift as an 18 year old and I wasn't thinking of it that way that back then because look, you know, if you look any tribal Society any primitive Society quote unquote primitive, you know, there's
always a rite of passage you go through from going from boy to man, you know girl to woman. There's something about your challenge you tested and you welcomed into the tribe. Now, you're a man now you like you've earned this right we missed that often in our society. I don't think college and partying is that you know, there's like something about where you're challenged and you step up and you step up you realize what you're made of boot camp did that for me? And then infantry boot camp to that for me like every day your challenge does no pleasant day. There's no like, ah, man, I'm just gonna sit here and but I was
The guy and you know Troll and I have visited be like hey move because I'm standing there looking at stars, you know,
but a sense of Pride and ownership like I guess I did this hard thing this is mine. Yes at that is kind of cruising through school there probably wasn't that same, you know sense of accomplishment.
Yeah, there wasn't that at all at school and the military is good about that. I do give you that, you know, they do challenge you and and they do make you feel like you earn what you get.
Get uh-huh. Yeah, they're very good about that. And we're you
deployed. No, I was in
during Desert Shield as a storm by the time they said have you may deploy you I was light infantry Mountain infantry. The thing was over because it was an air War.
Uh-huh. She's just hanging out in Georgia,
Georgia foot drum. Yeah. Just I funny enough I ran into someone who's intense modern the flight here and randomly. I never meet people and we were talking she's like, yeah, I was deployed all the time. I was like, yeah. Well you actually
Like I didn't so that you know who does to
you? So how long were you in the military then
total think little bit three years. I did some of the reserves because I went to school on the chance to go to a private school Upstate New York. So I went there. So you
took that that sweet Army money put it to work. It wasn't intentional to not to be that much it was it was all it was all marketing
fluff. Yeah. It turned out to be way less this all these stipulations. You know when you're 18 year old signing a contract you do not look at the fine print you just said
They just say this much money. You say okay sweet. It's been a when the rubber meets the road is like there's loads of fine print but I'm still you know, that's
fine. So you go back to school. What's the plan?
the plan is to
it wasn't a plan. I was studying economics at the time and I'm studying economics and biology and I thought I was going to go to med school and be a emergency pediatric person. I was working hospitals and level one Trauma Centers to get that experience, you know for med school.
What was the Allure of medicine
do something useful? Like I was like I could go anywhere in the world and be useful I could land in a random Village and
Timbuktu where you know and I could be useful that's what it was they are
and so how come that didn't happen.
I took a break I backpacked around for a while. My dad died. I went to India to his ashes there we weren't close at all. So we were estranged but I was with him when he died and I was in the hospital and he died it was being in the hospital watching The Experience kind of shook me up. I couldn't be in an I had to get.
From hospitals for a little while and when I came back end up actually wandering by the back by four by eight months through India and your Nepal and Europe with like three thousand dollars to my name, nothing more like no credit cards nothing and living I think in Europe and five dollars a day. That was my budget three dollars a day and what I came back. I knew I wanted to write what I'd experienced. I want to I knew I had stories to tell so I started
the writing and I was looking at medical school and then Silicon Valley was happening and my brother he called me said hey get the New York Times this weekend said why he said just got the New York Times said, okay, and so I'm reading the New York Times ran figure why and the Sunday magazine. This is a two-page right up on my little brother. Hmm, you know on this on this company has started as well for AngelList now, no Angeles is more Rusev that was way back in the day like, you know the
first of Corrado, so we're early
Dot-com boom early.com boom and a two-page right up. I mean, in fact Amazon reviews and all that stuff copied what he built. They didn't have that like that's and all this ratings that exists in the web exists because of what he built and I called him up and he's like look, what are you doing watching people die every day. He said come out here. We're building the future.
That's like man, you know, like I was kind of warned of watching people die of work and and I just finished the first draft of terrible terrible draft of a novel
right? You went like you went up Upstate tops in Upstate New York and hold up to try to write a novel, right?
Yeah and wrote it. It was atrocious absolute Roshan, you know, six months, you know,
but sometimes you gotta do
the atrocious to understand that look there's a path to not atrocious,
of course.
You know this this book here doesn't exist without doing a lot Rochas writing. Oh God the decades. I've done those
10,000 hours. Yeah, and when he said that I thought about it and I was at the gym at Gold's Gym most what kind of guy and I was talking to him. I was like man, I want to go out there, but I'm scared. I'm like, you know, there's what if he's like look Mal. I one piece of advice. I said what he said leap and the net will appear.
And I don't know what it was but literally that shifted for me right there. Mmm. So I got rid of everything bought a one way to take it and just moved out and leap and the net will appear. Yeah, and it's something I've learned. That's how it works.
It does it. Absolutely I mean that's I've had many experiences with that very thing. And what I've also noticed is when I try to sidestep that by having my foot in both camps at the same time trying to do the safe and secure thing like well, I
Can't quite leave this thing yet. So I'm going to develop this on the side and when it matures then I'll take the leap when it's safe never works out. Yeah. I mean, maybe it does for other people. There's a there's a rational argument for that. But there is something I think transcend it and magical when you have the faith and the courage to completely let go of what's not serving you and and take that step into the unknown and in my experience when you do that full of heart well-intentioned and prepared to work your ass off that
That inevitably something happens to catch that fall and create a soft Landing
that is in as well. I think is one of the fundamental truths of life. It really is but there's no way to learn it. You have to experience it. You know, it's scary. Yeah, it's care each time you do it because it's a different it's a different gliffy jumping off
different scenery, but you got little bro out there killing it and we should say your brother is involved, right? Yes. He's kind of become like a guru and his own
Right. It's got an amazing thing. Right what's going on? I don't know guys. I
don't know man. Maybe it's in the blood who knows huh? But you know, he was doing his own thing. I went through do my own thing and so end up like working there and building startups and kind of fell in love with it like the ability to create these companies and no one knowing what they're doing. We just making it up at the point right figure it out and just throwing it online and
see if it works. If not you iterating and there was a there was a an energy that I hadn't experienced before there was an excitement and energy of building the future, you
know, it was this crazy moment where ideas could get funded seemingly overnight and turn the today's realities. We just had the experience that with the
cryptocurrency boom same but cryptocurrency. When was way more scammy, you know? Yeah, but yeah, it really was and people coming from all over the world from there just to like, you know,
West it was literally Go West Young Man all over again, right and it was a very special moment in time. And that's where I trained I look at that as my MBA where I trained, you know, you just get thrown in a little cup. We have to okay now be we've gone public we got to figure out how to monetize our oh, come on figure it out. Okay, I'll figure out a monetize this public company on the web, you know kids. Just no one
knew. Did you have a sense that that you're kind of multi multi disciplinary approach to life.
Served you and that regard like somebody who had a you know, a kind of variety of interests and and you know kind of a jack of all trades master of none approach came in handy for that kind of thing. You know, it's interesting you ask that because
I used to beat myself up when I was younger for having too many interests, which is why I struggle with the whole medical school thing because as much as I wanted to be a doctor, I knew would have to give everything else up. I love to travel. I love to take all this time to read and write and do do these other things, right?
And startups to be able to build a company from scratch and go take it somewhere. You basically have to do everything and it turned out to be what I thought was my greatest weakness turned out to be you take you what is you think is your weakness. You just put a different environment. It's your greatest strength. Mmm. So, yeah, it was a perfect failing that I was part of the reason why I made that choice because I was flourishing in that
we're people prior to that throughout your life telling you you need to focus
Yes,
oh my gosh,
you could be so great. Just pick a lane.
Yeah, it
makes you think about how many people are out there being fed, you know some version of that story who you know don't find that situation where suddenly the round Peg fits into the round
hole.
You know, that's probably more common than not. Yeah, I would say so I think that's the best thing is like switcher environment if that environment is not the FED, but it's hard it's hard to do. So you build
and you build a bunch of startups multiple companies over the years Rockin and Rollin off and on. Yeah, I mean it had to be pretty exciting because money and Wilson's good. I mean
most never go anywhere that's dirty little secret to startups right like 90-something percent.
Well, that's that's
what really gonna like screen writers in Hollywood projects. You know, there's so many projects that you think are going to go people toil on them for years and then they just end up in a drawer somewhere.
Yeah, but at least in Hollywood they get paid for doing those like you could be working at a start-up for years making practically nothing and it goes nowhere. Aha. No and so some went places somewhere nowhere,
but it was it was a good
gig. Yeah, no complaints. I enjoyed it and I enjoyed
yeah.
Working with some of the smartest people on the planet. You meet people who are stupidly scarily smart, you know, but everyone's smart on their own way and then to be surrounded by people are smart in this in a way that I'm not and to be able to work with them and lead them and and learn from them was was beautiful.
What are some of the biggest lessons that you learned during that tenure about life and
business, you know, what's interesting the lessons I learned were stuff. I knew
And like like for example, I developed a reputation for being able to build really great teams just be able to get really great people to come on board for my crazy ideas for be paying them nothing when they were getting massive offers
like how you know what I
went. I basically I just did what I learned in the military, you know, so I'm going to use the word men because I was in the Infantry and it was all men or boys or whatever and you take care of him. And if you're leading you take care of them you eat last, you know, they you
Show up
first you leave last you lead by example. Like when you go to Fort Benning, I remember being in that bus being taken from Atlanta airport to Fort Benning and there's a statue that very famous statue of the of an infantryman and World War II and he's got his rifle and he's got his hand up like this and he's charging forward and says follow me. That's basically leadership in a nutshell follow me. And so that's how I build stuff. Like I was the hardest worker. I was a lowest-paid guy I let Leo
All the credit always went to the team never took any credit, you know, because I don't care if we win I'll do just fine. I'd rather have their rewards to the credit and and but that came from many an 18 year old, you know, I didn't learn anything like that doing it. I learned it's very interesting now that is interesting.
So there's a good chance that
You know short of some experiences that you that you have that we're working our way towards this could have just gone on ad infinitum iterating on you know, startups going from startup to start up
and then writing novels on the side and collected
rejection letters. Did you keep the writing up for guide me throughout
all of this? Yeah. That's what I did in my free time obsessively studying the greats. Like I did certain Hemingway books. I read on our 20-30-40 times underlining see how he did what he did.
Was
obsessed uh-huh, but never the thought that this that that would become your vocation. This was something you did purely for the
love for the love and people like what are you doing wasting your time? You're not getting one you're getting rejection letters. Like what are you doing? Right but it was like, I knew I wanted to put books out there. I just didn't know if it was going to happen. In fact by the time I wrote the original love yourself. I'd given up on writing for a couple years. I haven't written for a couple of years, but man that training that I thought I've been useless, you know.
I came out and it's been amazing. Yeah, so
talk to me about the precipitating event that Chris catalyzed this whole this whole thing that you may be like. Well, here's the thing like like all great, you know personal Evolutions begin with some, you know, Act of Destruction and you know, it lends itself to the belief that you know these amazing epiphanies about The Human Condition.
They emanate out of the ashes of you know, just you know various forms of disaster. Well, you know to be if those opportunities exist there they're there for the taking for anybody. You can read your book and and get a sense of you know, what led you to this point that set you on a new trajectory, but the opportunity exists for anybody to take advantage of these tools for personal growth and evolution shy of having to you know, meet your
or so to speak but unfortunately pain is the ultimate motivator.
It does get your attention to tell you that you know, but it's like I've thought about this it's like to be a phoenix. You got a burn.
Yeah, it's like the whole process of rebirth. It's not it's not easy. It's not painless, you know, like so so the pursuit of precipitating event for what
led to love reciting instance as it incidents of what is it be calling chemistry. Yeah, you know when the reaction happens
I was I'd built a company at self-funded it for this was going to be my Fu money company, right and it's doing very well. I was taking hours actually.
She taken away real business from Google Yahoo in a vertical no one ever done before I was pulling it off, but the great team got the deals and no one could get it was like a I was obsessed right and and I was built three and a half years and then I ran out of money, you know building a tech company three and half years. You've
earned himself found itself on yeah, right pretty much everyone's so for a couple. Yeah, and I took investment
and it was doing well in the whole thing blew up and I lost everything. You know, I was
My company but along with it. I lost my my sense of self-worth if to put it mildly because my company was my complete identity. You know, what I was doing was my identity. I've I was depressed beyond belief. I had no money. I was living off credit cards. I remember having to make some payroll on the side to some of my employees of credit cards of like look man. You bought him a crazy dream. I can't have your wife and kids survive because you know, wow and it was a it was a rough time.
Real understatement. They were times where I was like look, I remember looking at the Bay Bridge for my window and really like I was so exhausted. I was burnt out I was like, I was like really sick burnt out, you know, whatever they call it a dream or fatigued all the works. Like I went to some Doctor Who worked on me later on it and I didn't have the strength to walk over the Bay Bridge and throw myself off. Otherwise, I would have you know, I was literally like that and I think it was the next night or the night after that. I remember getting up and I was like I was miserable.
As I can't do this I got to get out of this. I mean again, I get out of this or die trying that's it. I can't be in this space and I walked over to my desk and I have a journal that I write in and in there and I still don't know where I came from. I sat down and I wrote about it myself now, I do believe in the power of personal commitment. Like if I make a commitment to myself I'm going to keep it that's something I've had for a while something. I've trained myself for a while but a vow. I've never written a vow to myself.
If that I don't know where that word came from and then it was a vow to love myself. It came in the moment. I am not a guy who was thinking about hey, you know what? I need to know what I really need. I think I need to love myself that never occurred to me once but yet in that moment.
That's what came out. Where did it come from?
Where's that was that deep Stillness that you know runs the whole show. Yeah, you know
when you have this, you know crushing incident your ego is is crashing down. You've been humbled you've been Stripped Away from all of the externalities that you were living for and it's like a deconstruction of your character all the way to your very core. Right? Like there's few things more painful in life and to be confronted with that person.
See with a choice like destruction or rebirth the bridge or in your case finding a way to love
yourself and they both very time that I mean. In fact that bridge is more tempting than the love yourself. I'll be honest because the bridge is easy to love yourself.
What does that even mean? Yeah. I remember sitting back and I look at
myself like looking at this like what have I just done but I have written a vow right to myself. Like there was something there like that doesn't just happen.
And and so I was like, all right. Now what I don't have to figure this out. I'm going to do this now, even though I've written a book about it. I didn't go to read books on it, you know anything I come across and that genre had been all like platitudes but nothing I'm a big believer and like if someone's on fire don't lection to them about come nature of combustion throw water on them, right? I didn't radical solution tactical Solutions. Show me how the mud how to fix my mind. You know this
Misery this pain this angst I'm and get me out of it. And so I was like, well this my mind so who's going to work on it for me? I am I have no choice I made this vow. So I and now I have a direction of this this love this l-o-v-e word, which I wasn't even sure what it meant. And so I started to try to do it and I didn't know what I tried like I was like if crazy mad scientist and my apartment just trying things. I was like should I write it down this many times a day this - should I like just
I feel excited. What should I like a strongly sings? And at one point I stumbled was tired. I was like, you know what? I'm just going to that saying it to myself because that's one thing I can do and so start repeating it to myself and I use interesting that happened after a couple of days and nothing else to do and Company was God. I don't money like it wasn't like any shape to go get a job right time. And you know, I credit limit on my credit cards and
Something start to shift after I think about two three days and you know, it's my mind I'm keeping again as I noticed the start to feel a little better and all I've been doing was just running this
just a looping this phrase. Yeah telling yourself time and time again, I love myself. I love myself
myself. That's simple and I was like, okay this it could be basically because by doing this one Loop, I'm actually keeping all the other Loops from running, you know with the self-destructive Loops or the negative Loops, but could be maybe I'm going somewhere deeper.
/ and after 3-4 days, I remember I was like well, let me try to feel it and I started making myself feel it, you know, and it feels really fake in the beginning.
What what is the process of going from head to heart with that like the the distinction between repeating this Mantra time and time again and attempting to feel it?
Well, this is what I came up with was I somehow connected the sense of light to the feeling of love. I don't remember. I think I might have
Because of the Moonlight was coming in one night through the window as I was doing this and I was feeling the light coming from the like a big moon and big you know window and in the bay and yeah, that's what it was. I'd forgotten it. Right and and so I remember started feel like light coming in and I would take a deep breath with the light coming and I would imagine this is not just a life in the moon. It's like all the it's like galaxies tipping over and just don't light pouring from them into my head just coming in and the light coming in through my
Body as I breathe in and I'm feeling I'm feeling the love come in and then I just breathe out whatever Gunk needs to go and I started doing that on that shifted things like that. That was like, okay, there's something here.
And what was that shift? Like what was the physical manifestation of that? You notice you notice
like a heaviness that goes away? Yeah, you know and in fact when I was just describing I was kind of started doing it and I felt like my chest feel lighter.
Is this a you're absolutely right? There is a physical component to it that I've sort of Forgotten because now I just do this a lot of this in autopilot, but that was one of the things and then I started doing a meditation with it. So I was just practicing trying things because I like I said, I had a vow and nothing else to do in something was working. And so if it didn't shift things I threw it away and so by the end I'd basically taking this basic Loop and built like a practice around it of a meditation of like a seven minute.
Tatian of looking in the mirror doing it to myself which is more of a physical anchoring myself to my physical self and then walk into this mental Loop and it started to shift everything inside right? I was longer that take
Less than weeks couple of weeks. Yeah, you know keep in mind there was a trial and error there's a lot of trial and error going on and a lot of disbelief. I did it because I didn't think else to do in because I made a vow and I was desperate because otherwise there was a bay bridge. That was my other choice, right desperation feels
willingness though con. Yeah. What I think is really interesting about this is that the typical reaction to experiencing something devastating would be to seek out.
Therapist go to the doctor or perhaps even you know, go to an ashram or seek out a guru or start reading a bunch of books like to to seek externally for answers. But in your case, you kind of did the opposite like you just went in deeper and deeper and deeper and experimented with your own intuition and instincts the tools that came out of this are
Not I mean there are other people that do, you know variations of the things that you're talking about? So it's not like you invented something that didn't already exist fuse you but you have to discover it within your own personal experience rather than sit at the foot of a guru and have that person tell you to do that.
Yeah. I'm Thai remember why I didn't seek externally of part of it is I'm kind of
I'm almost trying to figure things out. I was when that kid is trying to figure out the nature of reality since as far as I can remember and but you're right it was Instinct, but it was also like I didn't think I could go to anyone the level of desperation. I felt like I done therapy in college was one of the best things I ever did to to, you know go from childhood stuff, but I'd done it right. I'm trying member. This is a great point. I'm trying to remember why I just went
I think because of that vow and I was like I made a vow to myself. I got to keep it to myself
and was there a fear of letting anyone else know what you were just crazy talk? Yes. Yeah, that's a great point. But you know, I mean just calling your friend and saying listen, I'm thinking about jumping off the bridge like I'm in a I'm in a bad State like I need help or were you just were you isolating and like determined to figure it out on your own the allows opposed to select help the latter because that can also be back.
To lead people to do the greater depths of that could lead them to their
Bridge. Yeah. That was I wouldn't recommend it.
Yeah been that up and it's this many paths of transformation. Some are easier than others. I would recommend easier path.
So I had yesterday. I had this guy Shane Parish in here. Do you know Shane is Farnam Street? Yeah, and and there's an interesting juxtaposition between the things that we talked about and what he talks about in his writing and his and in his book and and and what you talked about in that Shane is a guy.
Who has a computer scientist mind and realize that nobody had really canonized how to make good decisions. And so he sought he sought he went out into the world and canvassed the best information possible and try to create like a latticework and encyclopedic latticework of how to make good decisions. Like you're saying, you know what I mean, like in a very kind of rational
logical way saying we need we need to better guide on how we're making decisions that impact our lives so we can lead better lives and create better businesses Etc and his so his Focus was was was very much a looking outward. What are the what are the greatest minds of all time? What do they have to say about this? Let me take the best of that and figure out a way to synthesize it in a way that can that can help me.
Help me figure out like a program for lack of a better word to make better decisions in your case. There's there's there's an analogy here and kind of a Converse relationship in that you looked Inward and rather than going outward and saying what are the greatest most enlightened Minds have to say about how I can get myself out of this hole. You just went Inward and trusted your instinct, you know, it was it was very much an emotional spiritual journey of trying to deal.
In your connection with self and and and not be influenced by the outside
world.
Man, you should have been around then
we put a beautifully but I look at it. I don't know what I was doing. Right and and in that original version of the book and now, you know full more fully fleshed out and significantly especially in love yourself, like life depends on it. You you kind of walk people through like here's what I did and here's how you can do it too. And there's a variety of practices that begin with looping this Mantra of I Love Myself. You've got a breath work practice 10 breasts.
This meditation practice where in your case it's seven minutes, you find a song that you know, basically allows you to Anchor yourself and that's a daily thing this mirror practice which I want to talk about and they're all like very short easy things to do when undertaken consistently can really shift those neural Pathways and and and alter, you know, how you how you how you feel physically and how you feel emotionally?
Yeah, because
That comes from just like I want to be efficient, which is called basic. I'm lazy, you know, so I want to at least amount of work for the greatest greatest impact and and I don't want to spend the rest of my life walking around doing like a crazy man, you know, just speaking to myself. I love myself, right? So like I was just trying to what is what causes the greatest shift that I can do and just start doing those regularly. Mmm. So these were some of the things that 10 breaths one is really that simple man. It's so simple, but if you throw it it's so remember the pride what I told you
It's so we're breathing every day whether we want to or not until we're not so ten breaths throughout the day. Like actually I was doing on the on the Uber right here. I'll actually just pause from everything. Like if I can't I'll close my eyes and I'll take a deep they tend deep and purposeful breath because I intentionally Brett's this is the fact these ten breaths. This is what I'm doing. This is who I'm being and with the in breath same thing the light from galaxies coming in with about the light is but the light comes a feeling of love
of you know, we're wired for
light and are you saying I love myself as you're doing that
sometimes sometimes no, sometimes just feeling the love because I cuz I've anchored the feeling of light to love right and you just if you do it enough times, it just becomes natural and I feel the love come in and just go in and I just feel my heart of my chest just open and get enlightened and then I just breathe out and what happens is usually about the sixth or seventh. I noticed automatically, but I'm breathing in and breathing out. Thank you.
So breathing love breather. Thank you 10 breaths just throughout the day pause and do that. It settles you better than anything. It's a very simple thing. So I've added these throughout the basic what I did in the book. I've showed all the different things. I do pick and choose what works for you, but there's also the core practice but that's that one. Anyone can do anywhere you do in the toilet. You can dig in the shower. You have no excuse not to burn.
What's funny is that is that they're so simple, right and it's easy to to dismiss them as hokey. Right? Like you think this is like Stuart Smalley looking in the mirror. I'm sorry. I'm going to bed down by the river you're worth it and you have value, you know, and it's just like come on man. Are you serious? But I know that the that these techniques are effective. I can't say that I've practiced this specific regimen, but I do have a very good friend.
I'm part of a like a men's group. I get together with a group of guys once a week and we with a therapist and we talk about things that are going on in our life and there's one friend who's part of this and he has been doing this very I don't think he's read your book, but he has been he has been practicing the I love I love myself Mantra and he's been doing the mirror work basically for the last I think I like maybe four or five weeks spending time and
front of the mirror like just staring into his eyes and saying I love my sins read the book. I saw he might I haven't come across anyone else to it and and he has been sharing that it has been completely transformative and this is somebody who is already very much, you know, a spiritually Advanced individual like this guy's not new to, you know techniques like this.
He's already like, you know, very evolved human being and he has been telling us that like, this is really Notch things up to a whole nother level for him in the way. He's experiencing the world.
That's awesome. Yeah, you know, it's, you know an art in a see, you know, what is a Simplicity is the ultimate sophistication if you cry you got to distill down to the simplest simplest thing. That's where it works. That's what the truth is. It's easy to create complicated practices and you know, I could have put
And all sorts of instance bowls and this and that which are great for Ambience, but
people like that though. They're like take me a I get that. I Love Myself by like take me behind the Velvet Rope. Like what's the VIP version of this the same thing like, you know, look I've been in I've been in 12-step forever and you're like really it's the same steps. I haven't updated this thing, you know, it's like secret wall. Like I have to like doing inventory again. Come on, like give me the give me the advanced program the AP version.
Well, it did something in the book that the new version.
Version that does help does kind of go there which is I took an experience of when I felt this is this
is after I've been doing the practice
and I kind of got late. I got a very lazy and let your life get in the way and I fell apart. Yeah, you know, it turns out it's
just a little third part of the
book. Yeah. It turns out you don't just fall apart once in
life. Yeah, you know
and and what I did was I started doing the practice game from scratch because I've been doing it for a long time. I'd gotten lazy, you know, and I'm the guy wrote the damn book.
Right. And so what I did was I wrote down exactly what I went through also the inside and share that in here. So one can actually see okay. It's not just like here do this this work for do that, but actually see me doing it and see the inside effect. So it's the nuances matter in these things see the nuances that are happening see the shifts that are happening. See what I'm doing right see what I'm doing wrong and let me point it out to you which is actually a get. I wanted to cut that part out so badly.
Because it's so honest so vulnerable and it's thanks to Gideon. He
was like no no. No, this is the reason why I know that's the shit. Yeah. I mean that's that's cool thing because it reinforces our shared Humanity like we are fallible human beings. This is a practice. This isn't something you do and go. Oh, it's all good. And I did that and now I'm moving on to this other part of my life like this is this is a recursive thing it compounds over time. But if you take your foot off the gas you're going to reset and your
Ultimately, you know going to regress and the way I like to think about. I mean, I think it's profound and I think that that third part really anchors that whole idea in a you know, in a really grounded and beautiful way, you know, I have my own version of that story, you know, it was it was it was impressed upon me when I was in rehab like look, you know every moment every decision that you make every thought you entertain every every person that you encounter. These things are either moving.
Ying you, you know back towards a drink or moving you further away from a drink you're either growing or you're regressing there is no stasis as human beings we want to believe that we can arrive at a static State and and that's a great delusion that I think leads most of us astray and when I was finishing Finding Ultra in late 2011 this Memoir about addiction and recovery and this, you know Journey towards greater self actualization Aye-Aye.
He laughs like 13 years sober and I relapsed and this, you know put I'm turning in the manuscript like this books almost done and it was one of the most shameful embarrassing things. I could ever possibly imagine. Like, how could I actually pick up a drink after 13 years when I'm about to put up put out this book that talks about this journey towards sobriety as one very significant component of it and it's the very same thing, which is that I, you know got to a place
I swear I was on cruise control and thought that I had it handled. I never questioned whether or not I was an alcoholic but I took my foot off the gas and deprioritized my engagement with 12-step and that community and ultimately, you know, after you know a year of that it was inevitable that what happened happened and luckily I found my way back immediately and I've shared about this publicly many times but at and and now I look at it as a gift because it Rebooted.
My my engagement with that with that aspect of who I am and really reinforced this idea that it is a practice and that this is not something you're going to ultimately transcend like you this is oh I woke up again today. Okay, I got to go do that thing again, you know. Yeah, it's a
it is a practice in like I use the word coasting and that's one of the reasons why and I was like, look, here's the dangers of coasting and hairs and but really that third part, you know, we're done by getting well Harper one. He's the reason why that's still there. I was
too terrified, but I'm glad I kept that because that's been very
impactful to people. Yeah, I think the vulnerability and it is powerful. So why don't we explain what it is? What it is that that that kind of catalyze that oh, it was
really traumatic breakup someone I love dearly still love, you know, and wasn't my choice and you know, it just kind of I've been going through stuff at the time anyway, and that was like the incident that just kind of made me come apart at the wheels and
And for the interesting thing was I'm like part of it there was active is that shame is like look, I'm the guy who wrote the book on how not to how to be had
fixed this stuff. Right? You've graduated. I have graduated. I'm like,
I got a date. I got a corporate job, you know like and and that was actually so I actually kind of struggled and I fought it almost like I was like, well, maybe it won't work this time because I've fallen off this wagon and but as like in the end it was like go what you know, that works you got to go back.
To what you know that works in I started doing it almost grudgingly almost like shit gorging a grudging and you know, what start to work. I started to work I started to work and so I went show how I did the process kind of like ass backwards and I say like look this is the actual process is taking this long because I'm I'm fighting it and but look even as I'm fighting it would look at what's happening inside. Look at the affect every single word. Every single word in this book is true. It has happened. It's what I felt is what I experienced.
Yeah, but man, that was interesting feeling the internal shame. I remember sitting in the airport getting ready for flight to San Francisco. Just reading David gagas book has come out had come out, you know, and I was reading it and I was like, you know when you read someone like David guys be like damn that guy's impressive, you know, I did you feel like me I just fell apart of gay and like
what?
Right. I know. Yeah, he could have that mirror for our own values. Right? Well, I think I think what what is profound about it is that
Is that you know destruction it's like what you said like, you know, if you want to be a phoenix, you got to burn like opportunity Finds Its moment in destruction, right? And it's this Grand opportunity to deepen your surrender to something more powerful than yourself right? It's a it's you're being asked to prostrate yourself a little bit lower to you know to really give over your ego even more to humble yourself and and to
And to you
know, let go
like you're being confronted with your Character defects in a really profound way, right? So then you have to forgive yourself again and you have to do it even more profoundly than you had two prior.
Yeah. It's actually, you know, I'm learning like life, you know, it's like a building a start-up excuse the analogy but no company just rocket ship straight up to the right. It's like it's Loops, you know, and but there is something to be said about
In see and what you would really matters like Fitness, right? If you're not consistent in your practice, it'll show your body will show the same with the mind and the mind is actually more plastic more malleable than anything else yet is the one that we work on the list.
We really do. Right, right. We really overlooked it.
And so that's starting to change but it's time to change but there's a lot of stuff out there. That's I don't know if f is effective or not. There's a lot of
Of out there in the end. It's got to be something. What is the best work out? What is the best nutrition plan is the one you can do consistently and that's that's what you got to go for what it's consistently a good that gives you results.
Let's go back to forgiveness for a minute. I think that's an important piece and all of this. How do you think about and practice
that well forgiveness this two forms right forgiving others is forgiving yourself the novel I wrote.
Rebirth that's about forgiveness. But that's about forgiving my father after he died the whole journey while I walked a pilgrimage in Spain and the result of the pilgrimage was I learned how to forgive him right like 550 miles since we had a Camino de Santiago and you know what it was in the end. It was just learnt realizing his Humanity. He was a human being man. You can't hold humans to do criteria of God's you know, but we seem to do that with a you know a
It's really his Humanity. That's when you realize someone's humanity is very easy to
forgive. But in order to do that, you have to you have to transcend your child your childhood lens on your parent yet and and and shift that perspective to see it through the eyes of the
parent or to see the eyes of a human being looking another human being you can never completely remove that right the parent but if you can just a human being to another human being that right away Chef's it and you see
their struggles, you know, they're even faulty decision-making whatever but their struggles and that when you understand that if a goodness actually comes naturally, you can't help it you can understand, you know, you don't you don't have to accept that. You don't have to say yes, I agree. I'm glad you were that way. You know, I'm glad you did x y z but you can because forgiveness ultimately is freeing yourself. Yeah, you know,
yeah, I think we look at it as a two-way street like I'll forgive you when you asked me for
Katniss or you admit what you did and how you wronged me. But ultimately the person who's carrying the resentment or the anger or that pain is the one who is suffering. The one who is the object of being not forgiving is often even unaware. It's
that's the great iron. So it's a
self-inflicted harm. I was at an event a thing last night. It's another like little group thing that I do there was created by this organization called The Nantucket project and
they created these neighborhood. They're called neighborhood projects where little small groups of people get together and they watch a short film that the Nantucket project produces and then there's a discussion in Sue's kind of like to create, you know, you know Greater Community in our neighborhoods and the movie that that we watch last night in this group setting was a short documentary about
the genocide in Rwanda and how the president of Rwanda was faced with this Prospect of how to repair his country in the aftermath of this horrible tragedy and the story is told from his perspective and also through the perspective of a perpetrator of the genocide somebody who killed a lot of people and a woman who whose family had been killed and ultimately it's a story about how these two people
forgive each other. Wow, and it's incredibly inspiring and it left me thinking about the incredible exponential power of forgiveness. I think there's something beautifully Transcendent and unique about forgiveness in
that it holds
this potential energy capacity to to be so incredibly transformative. Maybe it's because it's rare. I don't know what it is about it uniquely, but but to see that
It's impossible not to be moved and it leaves you thinking about.
The people in our own lives that we refuse to forgive or the resentments that we hold onto about how we've been wronged in the pain that that creates and the impediments to moving forward that that constructs in our lives and also about the people that we've harmed and thinking more deeply about people who might be out in the world carrying that kind of pain over things that we might have done.
Yeah, and the salt and then and then
forgiving ourselves right to repeat and loop the Mantra. I love myself. I think self-forgiveness is a subset of that is yeah, that's actually
the other part of forgiveness, right self-forgiveness what I found you know for me, it's what I've learned is struck with the self first you work in the self the rest actually gets easier that's just naturally starts to work and same thing with here was like in this book and have a practice that I do unforgiving myself and it actually works.
Beautifully and it's a very practical practical, you know, like everything is Impractical you can do it and you will notice the shift and what I learned was I didn't have that in the original version. What I've learned is if you're going to make a commitment to love yourself you can do this practice Leave the Past leave the shot. You
can leave the past when I believe the shackles of the past behind and
what you do is you forgive yourself and then you start to love yourself. Mmm. That's almost like the step-by-step right and makes it makes a huge difference.
And again, it's not flat as his actually how I do it. It's like, you know, I mean if very quickly it's like I don't know where I come up with these crazy things. I had a I had a girlfriend at the time and she was really holding on to some stuff against herself and I was like, look, I think I know what to do come with me. So we drove down to Pescadero by the beautiful like just open land Cliff of looking with the oceans by the
lighthouse soon. Incredible Beach. It's very wild one of my favorite place on the planet.
You can
watch whales go by it's amazing right rugged Northern California and we got there and I gave her a piece of paper and a pen. I said look write down everything holding his yourself start with I forgive myself for then I forgive myself for just keep on doing keep on doing until your spent.
And she said okay she said but then you have to do this to shit. All right, uh, I wasn't planning on it. And and because what it was for was that she's like you haven't forgiven yourself or not. Go to medical school. You beat yourself up for it. You need to do this for that. It's like, okay. So I sad that I wrote all the ways of forgive myself for not going back to school and then we both read ours out loud away from each other. So it's a private you could say anything out loud until you just really feel
the weight of what you've been carrying you have to feel the weight at there's a wait all right it's a physical thing and you read a lot and if that you've you feel the way you like I'm done caring this on Let It Go and then just ball to the paper walked out to the ocean okay okay and then just throw it far as we could and you know what it worked I literally ever since that that whole thing about not going to medical school disappeared and her thing disappeared I've done this other times of my life or other things are just like generally
hey I forget myself forever we screw up over
the last three months the human at
all and you know like when I fell apart with the with the break-up I had I did this exercise to forgive myself for knowing
better you know for for falling
apart and for you know not being better and it works its really it's a simple things and part I think part of the reason why it works and I say like look you don't have to buy an ocean you can set on fire you can throw down the toilet
Merci intention because you realize the way to what you caring is that I let this go right I choose to let this go and it's that act of deciding that something is like
chefs. It's very similar to step forward step 5 and 12 steps. Oh, yeah that no. Oh my God. It's yeah, I mean basically step for involves doing this inventory of your life and your behavior sexual inventory a resentment inventory. It's a very robust document that you work on.
On overtime to kind of purge your to get clarity on where your Character defects come up and how you participate in these crises that you form stories around and and ultimately to to then give it over to let it go to surrender and you know in the case of 12-step. It's like letting the higher power take it take it for you and letting it go and there is there it is a it is a
It is a transformative experience. Like I'm the first time that I did it I was in rehab in Oregon and I went I finished my inventory and I drove to the beach another rugged, you know, Pacific Northwest being sat on that side of the beach by myself and did a private ceremony and I and I and then I and then I burned it, you know is a similar to you know, the kind of expand and it was incredible how different. I felt after that.
But here's the thing. We already kind of touched on it a minute ago, but that doesn't mean you're done. No you there's no Stacy go basa. You gotta go back and and it's like okay you went through that. All right time to start
again, but then it's like not just
for giving us I was like who you're going to
be now, right? That's where the what I realized for. The next step is you make a commitment to yourself. So, you know for me it was loving myself and that's what this whole book is about you then you make that commitment and then how do you keep that commitment day by day by day? So
Becomes a way of being uh-huh and the effects just happened in your
life. My favorite of all of these tools is is this other recursive phrase, which is if I love myself, what would I do or some version of that? Right? Like if I love my what would be the right action here if I actually love myself. Yeah. It's a question. I came up
with when I realized I was making poor choices and and you know, like if you most of the time in our and I
In our head we're basically answering questions. That's what we're doing by asking dancing courses are and so I was like, why don't you just create a question that I ask myself whenever I'm making have to make choices just to make it a habit and and the beard the best part was the if if I love myself because then it doesn't have to be actively loving myself in the moment. If I love myself of what I do because then you know the answer then it becomes a conscious decision. I can still choose to make the the choice. I you know, I shouldn't make right the the choice that the poor choice.
Whatever you want to call that but at least I'm doing it consciously you start living more consciously there I and sooner or later you get tired of, you know, making the poor choice consciously and start making the better
choice. I was practicing it yesterday. Oh, yeah, it's incredibly practical and it really makes you confront yourself. Like I was just I was in the grocery store and I'm walking down the aisles and I'm like, what am I going to eat? It's like I'm I want to I want to get this thing and then I'm like if I love myself, is that the choice that I like if I love myself
If what would I actually choose and of course you're going to you're going to say well, I would choose the healthy thing the thing that's going to make my body healthier and stronger. Right? And if you have that in your conscious awareness as you're navigating these seemingly, like small little decisions that you have to make throughout the day. There is a there is a like strong ripple effect. It's a very practiced this one actually can change the trajectory of your life this one alone. Right? But all of these require
practice do them,
right? Yeah, so you'll
ever graduate
now apparently
not you know and I'm always trying to figure out what's the next
level what's next level like but man this is a good foundation
how does this dovetail with with gratitude like you hear about practicing gratitude which is kind of an ephemeral concept like how do you practice gratitude how do you what our actions that you can take to infuse your emotional experience with more gratitude
you know what I've found is sometimes that
play around rather than love I'll use other Concepts but the same exact practice now if we had light again I feel just like
all the magic of Life coming down on me and then when I breathe out what do you feel naturally when you feel that gratitude comes out or when you feel real love what comes out naturally gratitude I found that gratitude actually comes up naturally when you're doing this as a side effect where I don't even have to work on if I work on this
yeah I can see that
I'm wondering what it would be like if you walked around saying if I was grateful when I said of course I'd be happier Larry you don't move all of that it's at
that's a great question actually you know what your mental state will be better I'm sure it would be like this is little simple questions that are you know we can ask me should have great if I was grateful if I was if I loved myself you know but we stick with the basic basic Foundation things Plus what's love gratitude this fear there's a few things that are just
just wired for and that's it yeah well we've been talking for a while
and I feel like there's an elephant in the room because you are here it's kind of a miracle that you're that you're even here like the you know there but for the grace of God go I you just experienced a very near death experience that I think until very recently you weren't even allowed to travel so I want to hear that story and more importantly I want to hear how
how that experience has kind of colored how you think about these practices and what you wrote In the book and and how it shaped you know how you how you think about your life going forward
yeah that is a hell of an elephant yeah well
can I open the podcast and talk about that but then we just started talking yeah which was great realtor rolling after a while like I think they're all yeah we started that's how we do it here
I like it it's actually
very comforting you know there's no I
and we're on right
is it October I went in for a for for surgery for an old injury I had Being Fit and active and injured an artery and and so they went in and they fixed it and the next morning I was going to be discharged the but they stood the artery burst basically the stitches hadn't taken and immediately like boom all of a sudden I had
had a soccer balls grow in my lower abdomen really fast in that was blood you know an artery
personal bleeding yeah and
but in order e bursting is a one way street you know you it's a pressurized system the whores hoses I live one of the hoses breaks that's it there's though you know like in a submarine where they shut the doors kind of thing and it grew so big so fast so much pressure that it burst and it was spraying Blood Out
spraying blood out we're
out of my
Lower abdomen so it broke through the skin back to the fashion everything like imagine. I mean, that's pretty painful. I'll tell you that but it got the their attention in the hospital. Yeah. I was I've been complaining about pain and they weren't giving me any attention and the nurture startups trying to get more narcotics and then when I started spraying blood shoot that I also noticed her calling doctors and
you know, like this guy just wants more drugs
and so they immediately had to
Me into emergency surgery. It was like right away. Like boom. They were there was a surge. That was someone going into a surgery they pull that person out pulling that all our because this was literally life or death. I was bleeding out. I bled lot so much blood. I remember one guy. Just trying to like hold his hands over but trying to Hope just stop to spray, you know, and and I remember being in the the are still being kind of wide awake wide awake because I was in shock and adrenaline and all I've there was nothing, you know know like long
Have floating towards a light thing. It was just it was flashes of images of love. It was basically images of love and fear. And imma just just like regret love fear like and and and fear in a way. I've never felt fear because it was so Primal your body your mind doesn't know what to do. If you lose blood like that and you watching your own blood spray out of your body it R not designed for that. That's not a normal occurrence. Usually that results in death.
'The and and spring idea abdomen, you know, like it's not like idea our or something like that and and I remember the anesthesiologist and she was leaning over and you know, everyone had just been rushed in. This was an emergency they all running and there's like Mayhem they're moving things around and and remember these glasses. She whatever pretty cool funky glasses and she's like, okay, I'm gonna you know, put something in your eye just like push it aside and grabbed her hand and just brought it close. I don't know what it was, but it's like
I had to tell somebody and I was looked her in the eyes just kind of like brought in close. I'm like, I'm scared and and and then she what she did was she put her hand in my hand and something in becomed and as something we Fred the two thoughts went through my head. I wasn't thinking which one thought was what a shitty messy way to go because they are I'm watching blood spray out people running out in an or this would be my last realizing this is my last experience of life. This is my last images. I'm seeing this is now
What I would have wanted right that's one and second realizing I have no fucking choice.
and something of very clear all of a sudden you know like the images and everything just go away and it just becomes very clear like I had a choice
and there was a sadness to that but then I was also like okay and I remember she hadn't put the IV in yet she hadn't put the stuff in the obviously this wasn't the drugs had kicked in because I used to work in a hospital so there's a part of me that still keeps an eye on that and actually talk to them about it afterwards to and just feeling like okay this is if this is a this is it I remember like leaning back and I think I'd be sitting trying to sit up a little bit
From the adrenaline leaning back out feeling like this image of I'm falling backwards into the darkness like like, you know, see like someone falling it in Ocean dark ocean just following fall off. That's what I felt. Like, I was just falling falling falling on let go and that was it. That was my memory and I didn't know your it. That's
it. Were you conscious the whole time
well, and then in that then I could feel them put something in and then slowly like I was started because they had to slash me
open. Ye open. Ye.
Up suture. That find the
artery suture. Well, then what one other thing was I the surgeon when she came she was she had come into and I grabbed her and I was like look don't make me have gone through this for
nothing. Fix me fix the thing I came here for she's like, okay. Haha. How complicated was the original surgery? I mean, did they pitch it to you? Like this is like kind of a thing. You'll be laid up for a while or like oh, you'll be in and out. This is no big deal. Well, it was
complicated but it was a very standard micro surgery procedure this
Onyx and you were you was it like the same day in and out or had you spent that no I
would have spent a day or two and
National but you were getting ready to be discharged when this happen so conceivably you could have been in the Uber on the way home or sitting in your apartment when this happened yeah if that was the case that would have been
you wouldn't you wouldn't you wouldn't have made it yeah
it was literally like when I was they were like process getting me ready to like say okay I'm getting ready for discharge mmm how
much blood do you lose
I don't remember a lot but remember the residents saying one of the red present I was in the hospital for a while after that and the residents and the staff the became my friends they said come hang out and talk with me and their off time and really together and it said like bench you were like gone you'd like like you'd lost as much as we could let you and
It was just like it's freaking
soccer ball just build up so
fast. Wow, it's insane and that was all blood.
and in that like
release there's an acceptance and I guess an even deeper surrender like a sense of
absolute powerlessness. Yeah, and is there is there peace in
that I guess and the moment there was because you have to because struggle doesn't do anything, right?
and you realize that is the event you have no choice right
but no white light
know if I ever the white light there was felt like my body was was in was light but everything else was darkness and it was just falling backwards that's like the kind of image I remember but that's almost like a third-party image so keep in mind I was also in shock at the
time right right and and I know you're somebody's done like a lot of plant medicine and you know packed into that there are you know these these
Experienced these sort of near-death experiences that you have or rebirthing and the thing and you know things of that nature did it bear resemblance and those experiences matter? No, dude. I've done it all and let me tell you none. Okay actually make you feel better. I'm actually glad to hear that.
I am being hundred percent honest. I'm very experienced in plan medicine. Aha.
I'm a very curious
person. I've gone tried. I've done some crazy stuff there. I've experienced what I thought you could experience.
Not the same not the same not too. So does that color how you think about the value of those
experiences? No, because I think they still give you a taste is still make you better at this still make you face yourself, you know, I think there are there wonderful teachers. I highly recommend them. So this
experience you end up in the hospital for quite a while after that has it
altered you know kind of the things that you say in the book like how is this shaped how you think about life going
forward well honestly I have to return to the practice again to keep myself from just you know I spend months of writhing in pain you know I was an insane amount of pain the united two back-to-back surgeries one a very aggressive made one major surgery and then 12 or 12 hours later one very aggressive emergency surgery right you know
like
The one of the surgeons told me if anyone
qualifies for these narcotics, it's you
what caused this. Was there any kind of is there an argument for malpractice here was it just was you know, you know
what I've thought about it. I'm not a I'm not a litigator Sky everyone does their best but there were some things that happen and it's just been the level of pain I've had to deal with for so many months, you know, I was talking with your wife about this earlier. I have such empathy now for people of a chronic pain pain.
Grinds you down physical pain like extreme physical pain just grind and so like I've had to do this work hard just to keep afloat. Hmm when I'm in physical pain, you know, it's like some like to be able to just like get up and walk across a room and not be sweating. You know, like what that takes you like. So I've actually had to go deeper in this but almost in a survival way like I am right now and animal and survival mode and all loving myself as
just surviving yeah
you're pain free now though
I'm better there are times where I still deal with it but it's very manageable I'm getting better the body's amazing right and I literally feel like I've been rebuilding my body and I'm used to being very fit and healthy thankfully the surge they went the second procedure that did now they went in they read into it and took a vein out of my leg like a big thick pipe and put that as a big conduit so it's at least if because I was like don't make me
Amigo The Experience if I come out of
this but it's we know that artery is strong now yeah it's better than
like that would have been made it
worse right you can and and what's interesting is is is trying to Divine the lesson and all of this right like we were joking for the podcast you're like I thought that I'd had I been tested you know I kind of been brought to my knees a couple times in my life and I felt like I'd learned the lessons and I'm moving in a good direction
Action did I really need you know, do I really need this to happen? Haven't I already had my wake-up moment. Like why this
one now? I'll be honest man. This this brought me to my knees in a way. I've never have I struggle at times. It's like I almost left. Why am I here?
I don't I'm strong. Especially when you're paying your mind goes there right? I'm still struggling with it. And I'm so grateful that so I turn into final file mask wrote this book. I think the week before I went into surgery, right and and
now this book comes out and this is a book I so
care about, you know, all I have such an obligation to the readers, you know, who emails me and who gave me the questions that to put this out to the world that that's the thing I get up.
like that's why I got on a plane and came to LA to see you is to share this book you know it's it's like a gay myself this gift before going to experience I don't know if I had didn't have this book what I would have done mmm honestly it's like a it's it's something that's bigger than me that's more important than mean that'll make me get on that plane when if I'm feeling pain I would get on a plane and come and share the book that that's been a great gift I don't know where I'd be if I didn't have it and secondly because have the book I read it
right
and and it's like sometimes you know I wrote this for myself and and so so there are moments in life where it's a practice like this could literally just make you survive and sometimes that's all you can do you know you just answer it's it's very interesting that's something I just realized the other day because I've been beating myself up for for being like closed off from everyone and just being curled up in pain and I was like dude your survival mode yeah it's okay nobody's expecting
me you know go
On the talk show circuit. You just got out of the hospital.
Like I mean, I got a hospital in October, but you know, I couldn't wait to get out was like the first one they say you might be out. I was like take these damn things worse place to be if you're not feeling well is a hospital really it is the worst place on the planet. All your dignity is gone. You've been poked and prodded 24/7, you know, and just and that's where a lot of the germs are. Anyway, you know that right
but it's interesting that after all of this you're still be.
Eating yourself up measuring yourself against some standard that that nobody else is applying to you.
Well, I have to do the self-forgiveness practice again, don't I? Yeah. Yeah,
don't we all yeah. Yeah, that's that's an
interesting thing. I'm realizing that I need to do some of this stuff that more that practice more often than I thought hmm, you know, I'm learning this stuff myself, you know, I'm still evolving it myself and it's it's very interesting.
I've had to go back to it but a very different way and now that I'm getting better. I'm very curious to see the F what the effects would still doing. It will be. Yeah,
and I think there is there is a deeper lesson and what you just experienced. I think you just need time and distance from it before that becomes evident or clear. But I think I think more will be revealed. I think that something will come out of that that will that you will then realize is an opportunity.
I hope so. You know, I I was I would believe you go through something. There's a the something good that gift that comes out of it, but it's up to us to find that gift.
Right? I mean one of the things you talk about is this idea of of inverting the idea that things are happening to you and looking at it from the perspective of you happening to things or maybe even another corollary to that is things are happening for you. Yeah.
Yeah. That one's been hard for this experience.
yeah I think maybe it might be who have become because of it you know who I choose to be as I rebuilt myself who I become we'll see
ya why I can't imagine that you came out of it and you must have come out of this thinking life is even more precious than I real you know previously appreciated and that time is short and we don't know how long we're going to be here and you know if you have a message that you feel strongly about like now is the time
time to you know give your all to what is most important to you
yeah I mean I'm lucky I have it you know but but putting this book out it's interesting to think about precious some of those it's weird because time still goes by slips by and I find you know we fall back into our way of living which is just like you know often wasting time the mind is very interesting how quickly forgets lessons one has to be considered reminded what I like to do is I like to remind myself a Feeling
um just feeling life feeling blessed by life sometimes because I have to look at that being surviving the matter what I went through as a blessing there has to be a blessing in there
and what does that look like like what is the actual
practice of I do the same thing as I do with the ten breaths except now of the light becomes blessings uh-huh
I like
that I like that it's so simple and practical you know it's not it's there's not a lot of you know in the book there's no window dressing around anything woo it's like this is what I did feel so much better like and here's how you do it it'll take you five minutes you know
I get a lot of emails from people who say like what made them use the book what made them share it was a fact they could tell if he's just a guy
just to do to Rotator did it yeah yeah yeah I
To the podcast that you did with Jonathan fields and he put you he put the question to you like given that you had had an interest in in fiction writing like why not make this a parable.
This book rather than making it a practical primer to doing some storytelling in a fiction setting.
I don't remember what I said to him. But what comes to mind now is because for something like this you just need the simple truth.
straight to the fact this works this is how it works this is what to
do I think what you also said to him was that that it's the honesty like the personal honesty and accountability was what in your in your belief was was what made it connect with people
yeah it's amazing people are readers are wonderful you know just how they reach that they give you more than you give me and I feel like you give so are you
still like a Silicon Valley but you live in San Francisco right but are you still VC and all that are you just full-on I mean aren't these days are you are you're in New York okay
yeah it was a long flight to come see I
thought you came from San Francisco I don't realize wow my flight was delayed Marshall hours of full cross-country totally worth it thank
you
now I run a VC firm that I built on my own after I had lost everything and I rebuilt myself and so I invest in Tech startups and the writings what I realize is what I'm putting this planet for that's that's the thing that I want to leave behind right you know these books but yeah I enjoy love working with like I advise some companies and invest in companies it keeps that part of my brain active right you know and and I actually enjoy it you know you get to
work with people building the future you know it's
fun yeah what you got to write about what just
happened to you
I think so yeah but I don't have a there's no lesson
there well maybe it's not it's not yet time to write about it but at some point I think there will be a lot that comes out of that and like I said earlier I think I think it will be revealed to you but at some point you're going to I think it's going to be important that you're right about that okay then what else are you what else are you working on
that's the thing that's one thing I'm struggling I've nothing I've tried writing and there's nothing that's coming out that's inspiring me right
you know you're in your gestation period
so I'm reading a lot. Hmm. I've actually been reading a lot of physics and quantum physics and just diagonally that rabbit hole in nature of reality because interesting. Yeah, just like, okay look at look at Stephen Hawkings paper and this and that like what is
you know the Smart Guys the really smart guys, their
interpretation of nature of reality have been really fascinated by that. So I'm just kind of like right now, I'm feeding my curiosity about these
things. Uh-huh. Is there like an approach that you take towards trying to decide what to read?
or is it just your
Muse as my muse is the internet's you know you this rabbit holes Reddit is amazing you can find expert and everything are someone who thinks they're an expert in everything it's you know I'm also been working on okay what is my what is a practical philosophy of life I want to live by after all that I've gained give been through what is something that that I can actually live and this is the philosophy of been working on practically and I'm not suggesting this for anyone so I don't please feel don't send me any emails about you know the flaws
in it it's literally something I'm trying to do which is I am the cause of everything in my life because when I do that it's all personal responsibility there's no victim there's no there's no feeling sorry for myself there's only choice everything that has happened in my life because look the nature of reality if you were to really bring it down is that there is no reality we don't know what the whole show is but then there's this whole 3D dimensional you know thing there's more to this game than that
reality I'm with you right now
I
know that so then okay if that's the case you talk to my
wife. Yeah, she's awesome. Love your wife. By the way, please People Order her cheeses are out of this world. I mean, you know, she's functioning on in multiple realities simultaneously I think but go ahead.
Yeah, so I've been thinking like look what but how do I my whole thing is? How do I practically live something? I don't want to just Theory I want to be better because of it. So I'm like look if there's this underlying layer and somehow we just I'm a part of him connected as like consciousness.
Let's say it's all Consciousness and that's the ocean. I'm just a wave in the ocean that blip comes and goes at almost the way almost went but still always still in the ocean. Right? What is the way I can live that somehow almost freeze me but also gives me forward momentum because if it's obvious choice, then it's in your control. So I am the cause of everything I've been actually looking. I'm the cause of that experience of the surgery. I'm the cause of good things happening to me. I'm the cause of bad things happening. I'm the cause of it all so what do I do?
so that's a personal philosophy I've been kind of working on myself and just trying to mentally do it where everything I go through I am the cause of this not that I made you appear out of thin air you know ritual but more like my experience of
right no I get that I mean I think it's a it's a spiritual bent on a on a very Goggins ask idea you know yeah just sort of unbridled absolute responsibility for everything in your life and you know never never blaming anyone and I think when you're when you're of that
at mindset and you approach and navigate life in that way it's impossible to be a victim right because if you're taking responsibility for everything that happens to you good or bad or taking responsibility and ownership for you know every conflict that you find yourself in then you become an actor rather than a reactor you become the hero rather than the victim and you're presented with opportunity rather than dead ends I think it's all right you know
and I'll tell you this
easy to live this in your head because a mind Rebels the Mind wants to find cause outside yourself sure it's that's what the whole who
doesn't who does want to point the finger right you know it's
almost like little mental training I'm doing for myself so that's kind of like a new thing I'm working on just cabals welcome to kamal's world right well I know I
think that I think that that's I mean that's a
it's a harder thing I think to practice then repeating I love myself for doing the mirror work you know because it's it gets harder and and I found and this is you know for me it always goes back to 12 steps is another thing I learned that like even when I find myself in a conflict where with somebody else where it's clear that I've been wronged and everybody that I talked to about this thing will all agree with me that I am the victim this person wronged me there's no gray area here
always always if I'm honest with myself I can find my part in in in how that situation or that Dynamic was created and I think taking ownership of that allows you to transcend that victim mentality and also provides the opportunity for self forgiveness and forgiveness of the other person so that you can release surrender and free yourself from whatever pain or emotional weight that that
you know that that forces you to carry around
yeah I think it can be very powerful but it's hard yeah
how are you doing with
it depends on the moment in the day but I'll tell you but like even doing the love yourself practice I do it because if I'm the cause I have to work in my inside uh-huh if who I am is the cause of my experience of life that had then I have a responsibility were convinced I because if I don't then I'll be the cause of shitty thing
things
yeah
another thing I wanted to talk to you about is is honoring the child within right as somebody who I mean you've endured a you know a fair amount of childhood trauma it's easy to fall into victimhood over that as well right yeah and it's and it's the kind of the more you evolve and grow the more you realize that you Loop patterns and tell stories that were formed from that childhood experience that then show up in in
in Behavior patterns and it in adult life that don't serve you and yet you feel powerless to kind of snap out of them
yeah that is yes all our
facts you know so but you kind of have a practice around how you how you kind of talk to the inner child or honor that young person inside of
you yeah and it all comes from this this practice of what I did is I took the founded this practice of foundation approached different parts of me and my life through this lens
and you know the first time I did it I remember something shifted because I realized something about the child you know I was used to be ashamed of what the child went through you know it was I was shamed or dirty at this and that I was wounded I was tainted like these things I overcame them right but I was ashamed of what the Church of the of the experience of the child and when I did the sex of the first time it's interesting when you do this your perspective shifts you know
and like if you prefer tractor shows everything shifts and I've always no dumbass is my life with no dumbass this child survived stew so you could be you this child went through this I mean think of the strength it takes to be a child you know and go through things and continue on and not quit and keep on working to like one day I will get out of this one day I'll be better one day I'll get out of this one day no one will screw with Bubba whatever right but that child deserves
Metals mmm you know not like keep the child hidden and it was like oh my God it was a huge perspective shift and it was a game-changer where I like you you're grateful for the child for having the strength you don't think of a child is having strength to realize the strength it takes to be a child and a deer abuse that's insane yeah right and so like now I just feel so much gratitude and gratitude to this childlike thank you for for your strength
you know I'd never realized that before until I did this right
I like that I mean that's that's a very cool practice and way to think about that wounding you know what I mean when you think about the experience of a child even a child that grows up in a healthy environment a young child in the period of 24 hours we'll throw a couple Tantrums cry a bunch of Dimes be frustrated feel angry because they can't communicate
their idea or whatever idea they're trying to communicate isn't Landing right like the emotional turmoil of a childhood experience even under the best circumstances is incredibly challenging when you think about it like they go through more emotional turmoil in a day than I certainly do right so the strength the capacity of a young person to you know whether so much
it seems obvious that we should honor that yeah you know
yeah it's kind of it's very interesting I mentioned this other people and it's actually causes a shift of them to I find out I'm not the only one who was that way about his childhood you know when you come from a traumatic childhood you kind of like want to put it on the rug you like I got
over it right that's how fast I'm done
with yeah I overcame it I got over it I'm fine in my whatever but honoring that child who made it happen who had the strength
you know that special hmm
I think that's a good place to end it love yourself like your life depends on it what what is like you know just to kind of close this down people for somebody who's listening to this who feel stuck or perhaps finds themself in a in a situation that they can't see their way out of give that person a starting point
starting point look what did it for me was making a commitment to myself
you know and first deciding that look I'm going to keep commitments to myself right but if you make a vow to yourself if you're ever in a place where you just need to get out of the makeup various I'll write it down but it's somewhere we can see it every day we are reminded of your act to your C or promise to yourself and then do your best to live it you'll fail horribly every day but you'll get better and better do your best to live it every day it's really that simple that power of that personal commitment to yourself yeah it's that simple and you
don't have to you know lose
our company and all your life or I know get left by you know your one love in order for you to take advantage of that right look that's the important thing like you know a lot of people's elevators are going down they don't realize that they can get off every you know at any moment they have to experience that bottom and that wake-up call is required or necessary to get that person's attention but the truth is these tools are powerful and transformative and available to you wherever and whenever you find yourself
yeah it's the
even mind I know
well thank you for sharing man this is so were shaded thank you I love the book like I said it's it's not only packed with these amazing transformational practices but it's super easy to read and enjoy like you can you can literally you know read the whole thing in an afternoon it's very easy to digest so I appreciate that and that doesn't come easily that you put in those 10,000 hours right yeah yeah that's craft
so thank you thank you for the book I think it's I think it's a gift and I think you're a gift to humanity and I appreciate the work that you do my friend thank you so much come back and talk to me anytime you can find the book at your favorite independent Bookseller on Amazon you can find Kamal on Twitter at Kamal ravikant but he will not follow you back because he only follows one person The Rock even see what was that about well if you read the book I understand yeah
where else can people find out what your Twitter Instagram the usual is you know but just my email address is also in this book yeah email me right but you know he made me feel about you respond to all the emails I do sometimes it takes a while because I get back locked I was do people are really good sometimes you'll find someone who just has
an ax to grind and you just happen to be the one they want to do it polite respond and and it but most people I made friends would readers like people like and sort of good friends who reached out to me to start having conversations you know it's amazing
yeah that's cool man well I'm going to be in New York this spring can we go grab dinner kind of would love it James and we'll all go out for a bite I would love some vegan food yes sir okay thanks man all right that's it thank you Kamal appreciate you peace dude this is the
best interview I've had so this is the best thing I've had like I can't wait like
that's the title of the podcast now come all raw become the best interviewing kid he's ever had
amazing guy Amazing Story I told you guys right pretty cool to dig deeper into all things come all check out the links in the resources on the episode page or Rich world.com and be sure to give Kamal some love on the socials you can find them at Kamal Roth account on Twitter and Instagram his book love yourself like your life depends on it is available everywhere pick it up just might change your life or at least your perspective speaking of loving yourself the quality the
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on any page do it Thrive it's that simple that's it for today you guys thank you for tuning in if you would like to support our work here on the show subscribe to it on Apple podcast Spotify and YouTube where you can also leave a review or a comment share the show or your favorite episodes with friends or on social media and you can support us on patreon at which role.com for it / donate thanks to everybody who helped put on today's program Jason camiolo for audio engineering production show notes and interstitial music like her
it is and Margo Lubin for videoing the show editing it creating all the short clips that we share on social media Jessica Miranda for graphic Sally Rogers for portraits Georgia Whaley for copywriting dk4 Advertiser relationships and theme music as always by Tyler Pyatt Trapper Pyatt and Harvey Mathis thanks to the love you guys I appreciate all of you I hope you are safe I hope that you are taking care of yourselves and your loved ones and I'll see you back here in a couple days with another
awesome dose of amazing until then
peace science
