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Hey, so we've all been through a very difficult time these past few weeks. It's been very complex as a society living through this period of great uncertainty is hard in general to live through uncertainty. So what I've been doing is having an Instagram live every day at 2 p.m. Where I answer questions, but I also talked about my idealist. I also talked about the new normal or what I'm seeing in the data or hearing from doctor.
An epidemiologist and immunologist and economists and so on fortunately because of this podcast I have access to a large range of resources and people and I always enjoy sharing it tune into p.m. Every single day to my Instagram lives where I do QA and also just talk about different topics and hopefully put some calm and some meaning to all the different headlines and numbers that were being bombarded with every single day. So 2 p.m.
Extended time everyday. My Instagram account is altucher. Just my last name and I'll see you there.
This isn't your average business podcast and he's not your average Host. This is the James altucher show today on the James altucher show always have fascinating conversations when I talk with my friend Scott Adams Scott, as you know, is the creator of Dilbert one of the most widely syndicated newspaper cartoon strips.
He's also the author of win big lie and loser think and Scott is always fascinating because he's a master of persuasion techniques and he really puts into practice his advice about persuasion. It's not just academic advice. He's been trained as a hypnotist. He uses his study of persuasion techniques to predict. He predicted the outcome of the 2016 election. So we talked about the 2020 election. What the
Persuasion techniques for Joe Biden should be what the right persuasion techniques for. Donald Trump should be we talk about our favorite persuasion techniques that we've been using recently and I was really fascinated to learn from from Scotts. I've already put it into practice in my life. We talked about the news and how you know, I get Disturbed sometimes I get upset like why doesn't why does the new say one thing but not another thing which is even more important, you know, and and you know why it is there.
Hypocrisy and how do you how do you get over the frustration? When you see things like that instead of just arguing mindlessly on Twitter now Scott explained why he likes arguing mindlessly on Twitter and I explain why I don't like it. But sometimes I fall into the Trap and again, we just talked about III close it out with asking Scott what his favorite new persuasion technique is and I describe mine always a fun conversation. I always learned something and it's not just important to learn something. It's
Important to learn something that you can put into your life and make your life better. Here we go. Once again podcast was Scott Adams.
Scott you just said something that I want to respond to his you never met someone I've met somebody who has been offended on the spot with me. So one time I made a joke that Auschwitz you can go on Google Maps to Auschwitz and leave a review. I didn't know you can leave reviews on locations. And so I mention this that what does a one-star review for Auschwitz say like they didn't keep the Lawns up since 1945.
I'm just trying to figure it out and someone got really offended with me because they lost you know, 70 years ago or 80 years ago. They lost family members in Auschwitz. So I did experience someone getting offended.
Yeah, maybe maybe the exception is somebody still alive who knows somebody who was that that affected by something?
Yeah, so they being offended on behalf. Everybody's always being offended on behalf of someone else alive or dead.
Yeah, right the even in that case it was about somebody who had already
passed. Yeah, so Scott,
Adams once again, welcome back to the podcast you draw a little cartoon called Dilbert bolsover in some some excellent books loser think win big lie had a fail at everything and I forget the end of that title. So when big still in Bank you've been on the podcast for all those books, I actually just recently reread when big lie I find and I recommend this other people I recommend reading win big lie every couple of months because persuasion is such it's about persuasion and it's about
The persuasion techniques used in the 2016 campaign roughly and it was based on also your experience learning hypnosis persuasion is such an important skill right now. It's always been important to I think it's more important than ever right
now. Yeah, I would say it's one of the foundational skills of a good talent stack, you know, you should know something about Technologies something about persuasion you ought to be able to give a speech on the spot and there's some basic stuff that everybody needs and I would say persuasion should be it. In fact, I was thinking
a about if you were to build a college from scratch, you know, and you could throw all the models of what a class looks like or what subjects are one of the classes should be decision making and another one another one should be persuasion and then, you know, you can add some more obvious ones after that but if you don't start with decision-making which you can spend two minutes on Twitter and find out that most people can't do that even even simple stuff is elusive to
I did nine percent of the public and not because they're dumb which is the weird part. You know, people think their Common Sense will tell them all they need but maybe 1% of the people could look at the stuff that goes by on Twitter and say, you know, that study doesn't look like a double bind don't blind, you know, that study doesn't have whatever controls only a few people can do that. It's a valuable
skill, you know, there's a there's a lot of things interesting there and I also want to get to that obviously the Twitter social media blob.
Abla, but I think schools are going to have to be started from scratch like clearly higher education now is a mistake like Harvard still charging 70,000 a year for people who are could learn did not even learn anything online. It's just they're going to get the Harvard degree people don't realize employers are going to ask later. Hey, were you actually on the campus or did you learn remotely like the Harvard degree is not going to mean the same anymore.
Well, you know economics usually drives.
Everything right? So if let's say ivanka's thing that she's heading up where she's trying to get people who don't have a college education to be trained directly by specific companies for the things they need if that starts working in theory, you could get better employees at a lower cost because they don't have the the credential. So at least they'll start at a lower cost and maybe work their way up. So you'd think that it would sort of work its way, you know, it would solve itself as long as the option exists and that it would
Be popular I would think
yeah, I think it's been an ongoing discussion like how necessary is higher education. But this I feel like the pandemic the lockdown everything has sped everything up has accelerated every discussion has accelerated on social media that the hatred or love for Scott Adams for instance, which we'll get to in a second. But because I because I do want to ask about this education thing a little bit more. Let's say you were starting from scratch from I don't know fourth grade so you know how to
Read, you know how to write and you know how to add and subtract. There's there's not that many things. I would really add after that. Like I would a decision making and persuasion and maybe some skills in storytelling which is which is related to all three. They're all kind of linked all three. Maybe I would add basic statistics because probabilities are important in life basic probability not Advanced and then what else would you have like what history?
How do you do people even remember from their high school
days? Well, you know, I hate to Red Pill too hard too early, but a big part of the education system is brainwashing when I was a kid it was to you know, make you do the Pledge of Allegiance turn you into good citizens who had a certain mindset about what success Etc and I think that was very successful. It may have changed, you know, I haven't been in school for a while. So maybe it's not doing the same good job of brainwashing.
But if you don't brainwash the citizens to to think that working together and you know, we would learn where a Melting Pot and these are just sensationally positive mental mindsets to take into the world because it allowed you to work together and have common expectations and very functional albeit unfair system of capitalism. And if you if you let everybody home school what happens because there is something to a
brainwashing that works. Let me give you an example. My understanding is that we were not always a commercial Society. We were not always so consumer ish and that, you know 40s and 50s and in order to boost the economy, which also allows you to have a better military and more defense. There was a conscious effort to turn the country into more of a consumer, you know wanting country a country that would do anything to buy more stuff.
And that they succeeded so there was a national brainwashing to make you buy stuff. We did it made us prosperous made us the number one economy or our military is bigger. So you have that safety. So there is a really big function of not only somebody to do day care for your kids, which is important frankly, but socializing them very important learning how to deal with people and then just turning them into good brainwashed.
Ins now use the word brainwash because it's provocative but anything that does that gets people thinking a certain way and gets a hardwired in there when they're young is kind of
brainwashing. Yeah, because you figure then in the 50s and 60s, you know, you have this kind of huge not huge. I originally but you have this banking industry really grow and they make their money on lending money for people to buy homes. So suddenly the American dream included a home in the suburbs, which had never included before.
With particular with a white picket fence so that puts a lot of fence makers and business but the multi trillion-dollar industry was developed out of this kind of visually provocative American Dream slogan. Yeah, you know if you follow it all
backwards from what's the most important thing to Country needs. It's probably National Defense. So the only way to get that is a really strong economy. Nobody's ever really done it another way. You need a strong economy to get a strong economy at the economy is based.
Based on a psychological engine if you will, it's basically people thinking a certain way and having a certain set of expectations and and knowing that the other people have similar ones and then that makes an economy and the only thing the supports that is the brainwashing of the youth was sports. That is the schools. So you've got a fairly intricate set of things that go all the way to the existence and the ability to remain a country and not be not be conquered. So it's a pretty delicate.
System and you'd have to really think carefully before you brought it all to home schooling or online or something else. You could get some unintended consequences
well, and we've been getting them like the combination of all of the recent news the mean 2020 as just been a shit Fest from day one and it's amazing how quickly news disappears when the next news event happens. Like I don't know if you remember all the way back 15 years ago to January 1st.
It was the Australian wildfires. We're going to destroy Australia and then it is never was in the news again. Like I bet you you can't tell me when the last fire and Australia was when they were
extinguished right, you know, even even the Trump's niece Mary Trump sort of came and went and maybe he paid somebody to do take his SATs and we don't care anymore onto the coronavirus so I would give us something else.
Yeah. Well then yeah, right. He was impeached that that wasn't enough and
And look, this is regardless for anyone listening. This is regardless of what you think of him. There is news out there. That's not being reported. Like if I go to any new source right now, it'll be all coronavirus. Maybe there might be one thing about Kanye West and zero about I'll just hypothetically like there's a genocide happening right now in Yemen. I have not seen one news story on that. And by the way, there was I think there was like eleven people killed in New York City two days ago, including a couple of teenagers.
Nothing on that. So what's going on? Well
take it further take the the entire trigger for the black lives, you know, black lives matter movement the protest primarily there about that the single you know, George Floyd video which made all the other issues come out so it wasn't about the one thing but it was a trigger that makes all the other things explode at the same time. But ultimately a lot of that energy in those protests was about the lowest priority.
For the black community, which is the number of people killed by police. It's you know, if you measure it, right as a percentage of people have been stopped by the police. It's about the same as for white people if you get stopped your ratio is about the same and even even if you imagine there was some difference which there isn't it would be so small compared to the problem you just mentioned which is education. If you got the education right then suddenly everything starts working easier to get a job everybody successful.
Well, you know your parents now have some money so you can do better than the Next Generation and naturally discrimination and racism would decrease just with success. You know, I don't think Oprah gets a lot of racism in our daily life.
You bring up this great point, which is that obviously during this lockdown which is unusual in American history, you know for three or four months. Everybody was told to stay at home one out of three workers lost their jobs and certainly the poor.
Communities were more affected. So that's going to create unrest that's going to people are unhappy people are angry. And that was the way like you say, it was kind of the you know, wasn't the one event. It was kind of just the end of a bunch of events. But there is there are these problems and then you know, these protests started to happen, but then even that got Twisted in the media, so let's even say there's problems where maybe there's too much blue collar licensing. Maybe there's different educational opportunities. There's
There's reforms that need to happen. But then everything got mixed in with these rioters like so I can tell you from my household kids got confused were rioters. Also the protesters was it okay to break into Windows was you know, you saw then in St.Louis there was David Dornan a black police officer former police officer was shot and killed by protesters, but the media
And it always want to blame the media because we're allowing the media to do it as a society. But the story The Narrative got skewed.
Yeah, you know the the business model of the media, of course is to get you worked up and the best stories to do that are the ones that you see because they can do pretty rapid, you know a/b testing and they know exactly what gets your juices flowing and your finger clicking and and their business model cooking. So I don't think that's going to change and there doesn't seem to be any correlation between what gets them a lot of money and attention and what's
For a society and at the moment, you know, if you take one example of that what if I draw chloroquine works now, I'm putting maybe a 30% chance on it, but wouldn't you say is the media that took that off the table in the United States? It wasn't really the doctors. I don't think it felt like the media made a the press and particular made essentially a medical decision that other countries are making in the other direction in terms of risk management. I
absolutely
Li like so my wife lived in Africa in the hose, and she and her kids would take hydroxychloroquine every day as prophylaxis against malaria mean it was the who was listed as one of the twelve. I don't know safest or most successful drugs over the past 50 years. It's it's a known drug, but I remember one time in March. I was doing an Instagram live and I was mentioning hydroxyl chloroquine. This is I don't even know.
This is before Trump or you know was right after Trump had mentioned it, but I had been talking about it for a while. Someone came on my Instagram live and said no. No it kills people. Well, I don't okay have doctor's supervision don't just take 70 tablets of it or whatever, but clearly it's been in use since forever and later on another instance similar the same person contacted me, you know behind the scenes and said listen, you know,
This is a Trump versus no Trump campaign because I brought up that you know, is anybody asking about Biden's cognitive decline? And and by the way, I I like people on both. I'm I feel like I'm like you in 2016. I have to say, you know, I like Andrew Yang. I like a lot of democratic candidates on for Democratic candidate for mayor of New York City, but it just bothers me when something like hydroxychloroquine or other issues become politicized. Yeah, when lives could be saved.
Like why did that become a political
issue?
Yeah, I mean it's just so reflexive that people are going to take size that as soon as the president mentioned in any positive way. That was it and I don't think other countries had to deal with that, you know not I mean because Trump is an unusual leader and that people will take the other side no matter what that isn't quite the case in every place. I don't think I hope not
but like in 2016 you pointed out that you had never seen a persuasion expert like Trump and you predicted, you know in March of
2015 I think it was you predicted a trump win, you know a year and a half later and you were correct. I feel like the person or the persuasion techniques are all across the board now like I don't know what's going on on a persuasion level. Maybe maybe like there's some map in your mind of what's Happening Here.
You've been in terms of the president or just in general in general.
Well, the biggest problem is that we learned in 2020 that data, you know, we want to make decisions using data and we want to listen to our experts the only problem with that model which we all agree is the best model is that a hundred percent of our data is unreliable and all of our experts have different opinions and they're unreliable to so what do we exactly supposed to do with that? I think what happens is people just default to
Well, I saw this I'm Sean Hannity or I saw this. I'm Don Lemon and that's my guy so sounds pretty good to me. And then you have the new silos. You've got the people who just don't have any exposure to news on the other side. I have a friend like that anti-trump friend and we have occasionally I make the mistake of getting into it with them and I learned that he just doesn't have any awareness of 50% of the news and it's because he reads the
in the New York Times and CNN and and Things They just never cease the other argument and when I present it is literally the first time he's ever heard it and this is somebody, you know, ivy-league-educated plugged into the news, you know, really well informed. That's how bad the silo is that even he just didn't have a sniff of the other arguments.
Yeah and in a democracy, I mean anybody can argue what a democracy means and whether America is one or not, but I always think in a democracy.
See there's a many voices all rising up and some voices are so Fringe you can easily say you know what? I don't not want to listen to that one, but in general a democracy like the people who create a democracy, they didn't agree with each other James Madison and Alexander Hamilton didn't agree with each other, but they created a great government and here now people aren't allowed. I mean I saw a post yesterday. Somebody said, you know, I'm
Moving from this color state to this color state, so I'm really afraid I don't really want to be around people of this other color and why is everybody just signing up for one team or the other and not even list not even knowing that not listening to other voices is kind of not such a great way to live
life. Yeah, I think that accidentally our entire system of government evolved into a different system that nobody voted on and what I mean by that is that used to be, you know, you'd elect your
Senator they get on a horse. They Trot off to Washington DC make some decisions and you might hear about it in six months. But you know today I think social media drives the news and you know, and of course there's an interplay there and I think that drives politics so you have this irrational crowd making pretty much all the decisions. What would be a good example of anything that the government has done that didn't have popular support. Let's say congress because
The president's done a few things but let's say congress. What do you think of an example of something? They've done lately that did not have majority support just in the public.
I'm going back thinking.
Oh, yeah, March 23rd. They didn't pass the first version of the cinema spell.
Yeah, there there are some things that they haven't done. That's that's true that they haven't gone through so but I would expect over time that that's just a matter of time and there may be you know, if you've got a 55 or 60 percent majority. Maybe that's not enough but I think that mostly social media is driving your own team. So maybe that's the problem. Maybe maybe the Democrats can only do what
Media tells them to do the Republicans can only do with social media tells Republicans to do so, it's sort of coming from the crowds and they're they're
stuck. Well, okay, why are they stuck what has driven such hatred for both sides. Like, you know, the Democrats who are screaming about canceled culture. I feel like all that we see them live large on social media, but I feel like most people don't really care that much.
Much about oh No Debra Messing was just canceled. It's not like I'm not gonna watch you know, whatever that show was that she was on because she was suddenly canceled and called a racist for whatever reason or it's not like I'm not going to read. I mean people are burning Harry Potter books because of JK Rowling insisting women have services and should be treated that way but you know and again on the right side you pointed out I think this was a couple years ago you pointed out if you really think
Thump was Hitler you should act on it clearly. No one's no one clearly people don't think he's Hitler. Although they say I mean his grandchildren are Orthodox Jews and he's been on all their circumcision. So not that Hitler wouldn't do that. I guess but seems like something Hitler wouldn't do probably so what has like polarized things so much because I feel like in the center. Most people don't give a shit and yet somehow we're still being sorted into groups. Well,
you know you
And I and a lot of people who watch this would be in maybe the 10% were really plugged into social media and the politics of social media and the news. I don't know how many people in the country are actually this plugged in and I think that we the people who are most attached to it are getting this this jolt of adrenaline and and rewards from fighting. That is it's sort of fun and I feel I don't know if you feel this but
I don't dislike the fighting meaning that there's a payoff that you know, you don't want to admit because it says something about you maybe and if I put it on a positive spin on I go well, I just like the good fight and you know, I'm competitive or whatever but I don't know if it's really a good quality. I just know I can't stop doing it and I know that if I get in a good one and and other people say, oh you burned them you really got him that time it makes me
Good and that good feeling I can get instantly just by reaching over and picking up this little device. I press some buttons and I get good feelings. How in the world am I going to stop doing that? So, you know, once once that dopamine reward thing kicks in it causes me to be far more aggressive online that I think I would be just if I didn't get a reward. I mean, why would he be what would be the point to be no point to it?
I think for you. It's
In a good place to also practice persuasion techniques, for instance. I seldom see you directly defend yourself because then you know in Persuasion, you know school
one would learn
don't give status to the person attacking You by defending yourself, you know, instead start questioning their qualifications or start, you know, there's a whole list of things that you
fantastically suggested in win.
Glee but I think for you is a good practice ground totally.
Yeah, not only do I get instant feedback from the other commenters, but I can see you know, whether it gets retweeted and liked and all that. So yeah, it's like the best little laboratory for
persuasion. See I was looking at it from a different perspective that I was starting to get. I found myself starting to get upset that I would see so much just blatant. Blatant.
Hypocrisy like, you know, the Seattle mayor calling the Chaz the autonomous Zone like an Arts Festival until they wanted to you know sees her house and then suddenly she sent in the troops and shut it all down within a day and then it's never been in the news again. Like it was it was God. So like I was starting to feel myself getting upset or like DeBlasio saying, you know, everybody has to stop social Gathering.
You're going to be the 50,000 people gathering in Washington Square Park for a protest then it's okay like it seems to me like like you say, these are smart people with education's maybe High IQs even and yet it's almost as like you're talking to a three-year-old at that point.
Yeah, you know, none of the hypocrisy stuff ever bothers me and I have maybe some unique immunity to it. And I guess it's because the way I frame it is
I don't expect anybody to be honest or honorable. So the fact that they change their mind at the drop of a hat to support the new thing just I just say, okay, that's exactly what I thought was going to happen. So I don't have an emotional connection to it because I don't expect it to go some other way. But if I were if I were to Blasio here's how I would have defended it. I was said freedom of speech number one, right? It's not like anything else boom and the story so that's my advice to anybody who any of the mayors.
You were saying something that sounds ridiculous to the rest of us, which is this crowd was spread the disease the the virus but the squared well, we know that's not true. He could have just said look there's a primary there's a you know, there's one right that is just king of all the rights or king or queen. Let's keep it gender-neutral and I would just say that's it get used to it. There's one right that is bigger than the other rights and it has to be that way.
All right. This this is this is fun. Let's take
all this Ridiculousness and and see what persuasion technique would have maybe not necessarily save as person because de Blasio didn't really ever, you know, nobody really blamed him for anything. But you know how they could have persuaded better. So on the opposite side of things Betsy DeVos in the past day or so as Secretary of Education said, we need to send the kids back to school worst case. I think she said 0.2% kids will die, you know
Maybe she didn't say exactly that. I don't probably misquoting. But someone number that amounted to thousands of kids dying. What would maybe a better could she have said look are so, you know Society thrives on education. We must get kids back. Like what would have been a persuasion techniques she could have used their
well, I would have taken the high ground and said look this isn't like other situations. We don't have the option of even being smart or lucky and finding a path where nobody
gets hurt. So can we agree? Can you just agree with me? We don't have that option. If we did I'd be all over that because that's primary responsibility keep everybody safe by having a functioning Society with an educated population and parents being able to go to school kids having something that's good for their mental health. We've already seen the devastation from suicides addictions domestic abuse. We know this thing locked up is bad for us. It's bad for us in a big way.
It's hard to put a number on it and with the virus you can come up with a calculation. So this is where leadership comes in there will be deaths but it's going to happen. Either way. I'm going to take the way that takes the country forward. I'm going to take some heat for it, but I'll take that heat.
So that's great. And so the question is why didn't a why didn't Trump say something like that early on when it was very clear that there was going to be collateral fatalities from the economic lockdown like
People who needed Cancer Treatments weren't able to get cancer treatments. All the cancer Wards are filled with empty beds waiting for Coronavirus patients. Not of the virus wasn't real but just in some states, it was more serious than others and that might have been able to he might have been able to get a more bipartisan Coalition behind him if he said look there's deaths either way, but the economy the best health care is provided by the best economy.
Let me be the CNN headline.
Lee after he said exactly what I said Trump says he's going to send children to their death
Right, that's the headline and we've already seen some version of that play out. I'm not even making that up. That's basically how they treat it. They'll just Lop off the part about being an adult and there's you know, your there's death either way or they'll bury it, you know, seven paragraphs down so it could be that he was simply responding to the political reality and thought I'll just keep it simple. We got it. We got to go back to school. We got open up our economy now that the beauty of his approach and
Let me let me not knock it because he does have a genius for Simplicity and repetition and sometimes that's what the public needs. So maybe you and I want to hear the nuanced argument. But sometimes the public just needs to be told you have to open the economy. You have to go back to school. We don't have a better way. We're going to make this work. It's going to be hard. We're going to make it work. He stays stays on message and I think the
advantage of that of keeping it simple is that everybody is sort of agrees. It's just something it's hard to communicate but I don't think there's anybody sitting at home who says yeah. I've got a better idea because they don't they don't have a better idea.
Okay, and then what about when so there was a press conference a few weeks ago with not with trumpet with the press secretary Kelly figured I'd make nay. I've never actually me. Yeah, something like that and all the
Reporters are saying you know, how come he didn't say XY & Z about these monuments or the flag and she was like why why isn't anybody asking about all the shootings in the in the city across all the metropolitan areas or why isn't ever anybody asking about you know, this other investigation happening. Like why have you just asked 30 questions in a row about the same thing, which I answered 30 times in a row does any reporter actually think to themselves and I know your answer to this but there's any reporter actually baked.
Themselves, huh? I should have asked that's a more important issue. Yeah,
you can see I'm writing that down. Well, hold on. Hold on should have asked about so I can get that right next time the murderers got it. Got it. Yeah. Yeah, the the whole White House Press Conference thing. It's just theater and the fact that anybody treats us as anything else is the funny part.
I guess that's been the case all 2020 like the the best reality show of 2020 was clearly the impeachment hearings like Chuck Schumer Adam Schiff Jim Jordan. These guys were Mega these guys were bigger than Kim Kardashian for like three weeks and then we just went straight into and by the way, that was after World War 3 began and completely ended somehow like we killed the number two most important.
In sacred General in Iran, who was by the way on Iraqi soil. I guess presumably taking a vacation or something. I don't know and then the news was completely gone a week later, like nothing happened coronavirus and then economy and then BLM and now I don't even know now, it's Florida, unfortunately, which is where I am at the moment, but Florida is now the main news item all over CNN.
Yeah, I mean
They they have to create a an Emergency one after another the number of kids who are having mental problems about climate change, you know, the thought that they don't have really any chance of growing up in a world which is not smoldering and on fire. I mean that's just criminal that it that is absolutely criminal what they're doing to Children especially since there isn't a ton of Truth to that.
Yeah, like when we were kids there was a real I thought I feel like legitimate worry that
There was there was a policy of mutual assured destruction from the Soviets and from the US and if one side launch nuclear weapons the other side would and we would all die equally and there was a reason to be worried because you know, you see from John F. Kennedy's days, you know, we came close to it with the Cuban Missile Crisis. So I feel like that was a little bit more legit, even though nothing happened climate change whether you believe in it or not. It's not like tomorrow or next year. We've already seen
I predict hey 10 years from now. It's all over that's been happening ever since 1970 and it's not all over yet. So now my kid says to me. Well, my grandchildren are going to be affected which my response is. I don't care about your grandchildren. I'm dead by then. So so we don't have to worry about it now, but like it does seem like people want to concoct problems. You think there's a obviously something Primal there where we attach the
problems.
Yeah, I mean there's some hate that, you know, you've got your usual tribalism inside taking but I think the business model is is primary above all those things. You know, we have the our natural human propensity to be bad to each other and you know, Miss the truth and all that it plays well to those things but getting us all worked up that's I think the problem that we're experience is probably 90% the the Press business model if you
change that whole lot of stuff would be different.
Yeah, and and I mean I on the hypocrisy I found I was getting angry and then I realized I just can't look at it anymore. It's not going to help me. It's have you in your digital Bill of Rights. You mentioned you basically implied no one's going to be convinced of anything. Like if somebody misinterprets something you're not going to be able to correct them and they're going to say hey, thanks. I really
Now I'm interpreting it right thanks to what you said like no one's ever going to change their mind and what and you're right. Like I see a lot of smart people just getting really into it and not doing any basic research. I mean this really has turned the world upside down for me. I feel like I need therapy from you on this right now. That's why I called you.
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Have you done the experiment yet of taking a few days off from social media. Have you been have you like literally experimented
with that yet? I have and it does make you happier. Yeah, and not
only does it make you happier. You're not imagining it like it's so profound, you know if I step away for even half a day, which is a lot for me because I'm pretty active and half a day. I'll thank there's no way I would have felt just this good if I had been on my device for the last, you know,
Hours, so, I mean it could be as simple as that. I got a this cool electric bike, you know this electric assist by yourself to Pedal it and I leave my garage into the California Sun and all the weight of all this stuff that was in my head and social media and all this I could feel it just washing off of me and about two blocks into my ride. None of it matters.
None of it matters. It just goes away and the the the lesson there is not that it doesn't matter that because it mostly doesn't but the lesson there is that it can change so easily you can tell it's a mental situation, you know, you know, it's how you reacting to it. It's not the stuff
well and it also suggests that you're getting something like you alluded to earlier. You're getting something from it too when you go back to it.
Yeah, the the payoff for me is just disgusting lie. It's so obvious that I'm getting a dopamine hit from this stuff that I feel guilty. I feel like an
addict. Do you think it's helped your career in any way? I mean you obviously you're a Dilbert's I don't know. Is it still the most successful syndicated comic strip out there? What where's Gilbert in the rankings these days,
you know, I actually, you know, I don't know that Garfield of I think is the biggest for a child.
Something that's aimed at younger people Dilbert's always been the biggest for adult entertainment if I can use that phrase for a comic strip, meaning oriented towards the workplace and stuff. So it's the biggest in that sense. But in terms of what the internet did for me, well, you know, I made the mistake of talking about politics which immediately takes a third of your income right off the top because that every person who said wait a minute that was your opinion and you make this
comic I used to like, all right, I'm done with you. So I think it I took a big hit in income but it also allowed me to do a whole to enter a whole new field with the lowest of expectations and you know, make a little bit of a dent and creates something new which is, you know will be smaller, of course than Dilbert but more rewarding in a lot of ways
now in 2016, I feel like you were
Are you know everybody was reading your blog to see the predictions and you had all this great analysis of the different persuasion techniques of Hillary and Trump and the other Primary people and so on but you always would qualify with saying look I'm not officially supporting anybody. You know, I don't want to get hurt if I take one side and people are violent on the other side. It seems like now you're not as afraid of that. Like I feel like like a few weeks ago you tweeted something.
Thing which was I don't know if I agree with but you definitely were tweeting an opinion which is that you felt you would be hunted if Biden wins and people people called you on that because that was your most extreme opinion ever usually back off on opinion and resort to
analysis. Well, let me ask you what do you think I was doing with that
opinion?
My my first gut was you were revealing a little that. You were scared like into that there was an agenda there was not an agenda is that opinion that you legitimately were scared? But now that you ask this question, maybe you were kind of trying to gauge how people would respond to it. I don't
know dude. Did you see the how much attention that
got? I did. Yeah. That was if you go if you search Scott Adams on Google News right now, that's like the
First article that comes up right Dilbert founder is things he's going to be
hunted and so so assuming that I knew that piece it together. What do you want? I'm just seeing if yeah, my motives are can be transparent. Go ahead.
I mean
I guess then people would be so one side is going to think so first off a lot of people did respond to you and say don't worry Scott. We won't hunt you instead. We're going to give you health care. So a lot of people were kind of a little snarky and you know, but then it got elevated to the news level was it started being headlines and I presume more people heard about you then had previously heard about you and so probably some agreed with you and then started following you some didn't agree with you.
I will I will I'll give you the hint that it was not about increasing my followers reputation or money. So it was not a it was not a personal act
for me.
As is a good puzzle I me
let me think about this. Give me give me give you a minute. I know it's I know its podcast time but we dead time is okay.
I mean, the only thing I can think is that you wanted to see how crazy the reactions would be
and then no, I mean I'm not above doing that. But that wasn't what I was about this time. Would you like the answer?
Yes
you by the way, you're the first personal hear this. So a lot of people have asked me about that and I just sort of Let It Ride the it's a persuasion play and I knew that it would get a lot of attention and I knew that it would be people calling me crazy.
But it would also put the thought in their mind because the thought is real, you know, if if you follow Alice a conservative Twitter, you see an endless videos, you know, Etc of trump supporters being attacked in public. Usually they're wearing a maggot hat which I consider not a good not a good risk management decision for leaving the house, but still it's very clear that if you are identified and the case wearing
Had is easy identification that in public you will be victimized. Now. I'm not saying that if you go into a room of a hundred people that most of them will want to be you up nothing like that. But if one person in there wants to be you up you get beat up. It doesn't take a lot and if you would see the messages that I get simply for writing about Trump, you know, I just simply being in the conversation by saying that he's does some things right does things some things?
I'm wrong. But if you say he does something right? Wow, you will be compared to Joseph Goebbels. You'll be called a Nazi you'll be called a white supremacist and people will mean it and they will tweet it and you'll be branded that forever. Now. Let me ask you this. What what permission do you have? If you see an actual Nazi?
Right. What right and it will
sit Society gives you permission. It's a free Punch If you know in the hypothetical magical world that an actual Hitler was born and you could strangle Baby Hitler. Yeah, you have not only the right to do it, you know sort of a natural right if you will not illegal, right but our responsibility, you know, and the in the magical sense that you knew it would save the world from World War Two. So, I think that this kind of
Encourage about people who say anything good about Trump that kind of language creates a situation in which you will be hunted now is the statement. I will be hunted true enough to an actual description that you'd say. Oh, yeah, that's an actual description of what's going to happen. No, was it intended to be of course that it was intended to take you into the extreme version of the point. I'm trying to make a larger point which is settle down.
Down you've created a situation where you've demonized 1/2 of unless a 40% of the country the Trump supporters. So if the Democrats could take control and they had control of everything they've got most of the mayor's a lot of the mayor's if they have the Congress if they had the presidency, they've already talked about stacking the court and the Supreme Court what happens to the people who have been labeled as racist and white supremacist unfairly.
You're completely unfairly. What happens to them?
Well,
here's what one of the things that happened since I said that right now, I'm not going to claim credit for it. But I'll tell you this is what I was aiming for. I'll call it a coincidence and it really is a coincidence but it was what it was what I was trying to hope would happen. Have you noticed in the last three or four weeks? The phrase white supremacist has changed to a completely different definition.
Because I used to be lumped in with white supremacist were literally racist like literally racists. That's what it meant that you were felt. You were Superior and now it's morphed. So why you Supremacy the most common definition you see is simply the system which perpetuates the people in power staying there and historically they're white. So in a Mindless, it's nobody's current fault. We have a system that supports this imbalance.
It's not really about the person anymore. So it's not about you being racist. It's about hey, if we don't work together to fix the system, it's not going to work in a way that seems fair to the rest of us. That's really different. When was the last time I got called a white supremacist or or a Nazi? I think it's happened a few times but it almost completely stopped. So the personal threats against me when from alarmingly regular to all
It
was nothing immediately after I said that and they got a lot of attention. That's why I did it but I didn't do it for myself. I did it to put it out there a little ahead of time. That's an interesting make to draw attention to that point of view just so it wouldn't be invisible because it was invisible to the entire left. It was not invisible to the right. And so I needed to send a little say a poisoned Dart into the left and the way to do that is to say something that is
Ridiculously not true but makes you think about something that is true. It's the same technique Trump uses all the
time. And and it's also interesting because if anyone does respond to you negatively, it's like suddenly they're joining this camp that you've created of people hunting you exactly what I was thinking about a completely from a different angle because I know you and I've followed all of your tweets for four years, so
I was thinking high is is Scott's nervous? Like it's you know, where as somebody who doesn't know you and then but they let's say they hate you now, they don't want to tweet their aggressive tweet towards you because they don't want to be in the camp that you've just you put just put boundaries around.
Yeah, you know, I should say that almost nothing scares me in that way like, you know something physical somebody is going to be down something like that. I've never I don't have any concerns about that for myself. I do have concerns about
about Society starting to think that that's okay and you see, you know, the hunted down is intentionally ambiguous because it could mean we're going to find the people who supported Trump in my business and we're going to not promote them anymore.
Right? But now you CPU do see people economically hunted down like, you know yesterday friend of mine Barry Weiss quit from being a columnist at / editor at the New York Times and you know, she was very Centrist like I
Put her in one political camp or the other but she said she was harassed at the New York Times and you know, and then I think was Andrew Sullivan quit the where he was the new Republic and so you do see this people getting more and more who are more and more in the center are now being economically hunted down and that that concerns me about Society like you can't hear even like if you're mildly left-of-center the alt left thinks you're a
racist. Yeah, you know, it might be the capitalism is
having this already. I was just tweeting this morning. There's already a list some kind of organization and a list of companies that will hire a conservatives really if you could imagine that that's that's going to be a separate job search is like a place I can go where I won't be cancelled because I voted Republican. That's where we are. But if that's what it takes and it's just harder imagine imagine your Facebook. All right, and you want to hire top engineer's
Well, you're lucky, you know, 80% of them are probably going to be left-leaning and no problem at all. But you really need as many as you can get and if you're a content of 20% of the market because those people are going to go to you know, XYZ company that said look that's one thing. We're not going to discriminate against you. Your pull-up politics is yours. We just need your coding. That's a big hit to attack company if you're cut out of twenty percent of the market and why wouldn't you be I mean if you
Had a choice and you were you knew that you would be hunted down so steak or you might be at any time in the future. Why would you even want to get a get a start in the company that two years from now? Somebody might say who did you vote for? Okay, you're right here is over
so so and it does seem like also.
You know, there's this the phrase going around now if you cancel everybody you've canceled nobody and it's starting to get to that point. Everybody is canceled and maybe this thing just sort of self eliminates itself, but we know that the media is going to have to keep something going or else they just are going to shut the lights off and I'll find other jobs which they don't want to do. So I don't quite see this ending nicely. It seems like what's happening is there's you know, there's been this theory for decades that the great sort is
Being so people are moving to places where everybody else politically agrees with them. So that's why I have blue states that are getting more blue and red states that are getting more red and now it could be economically these companies or blue companies and these companies are red companies. Just wonder how far that that goes and then even seen on social media, there's Twitter and then suddenly there's parlor and there's other social media platforms,
you know, you have to ask yourself. Is that better or worse, you know?
People are making the decision for purely their themselves and their families. So they're not thinking of society when they make these individual choices, but if you think it through, can you think of any example where people are not more comfortable around people who are substantially like them in some way now, you know, there's no value judgment here, right? Yeah. So this is not about anybody's better than anybody else by everybody's just more comfortable with people who have something in common with them could be the age could be yours.
Angle could be your marriage, you know, whatever that commonality is. So, you know, if you go back 200 years, nobody had Mobility we didn't have the Internet Ad even find people like you unless they happen to be there. And now we have Mobility we have the internet. Maybe it's just better, you know, should we discourage it? I don't know it would be one thing. If somebody said we're going to put all the Norwegians together and we hate everybody else and we're not going to do a trade deal with you. Okay? Yeah, I don't think
Think that's going to happen. I think people are just going to go where they feel comfortable and it'll be
fine. I guess it seems sad to me that politics is the thing people care so much about that. That's where they're willing to draw the line on friendship family business opportunities, like rather than being and I'll just be you know, I'll just exaggerated bird rather than making the dividing line. Oh, I'm gonna hang out with kind people as opposed to unkind people like well you're
It takes a little bit of a fiction right because we don't know truly what how Joe Biden feels about things. We don't know truly how Donald Trump feels about things like Politics as you pointed out is a narrative is a person story of persuasion, you know, the
most damaging thing about it is the thing that you see on the news and social media is that people they attribute at intent to people that isn't there. So the biggest problem with conservatives is that the entire left thinks that they have bad.
Ins that that they're thinking bad things about them they hate them they want to dominate they you know, there's a whole set of false beliefs about the right and if you spend any time over there, they just want to be left alone in play by the same rules as everybody else. You know, it's really kind of simple and it's to me that's the the most frustrating part about the Divide is that it's not real, you know that it's an assumption about how somebody else is thinking.
Which is supported by turn on CNN. What is all the commentary say? I think the president's our real purpose. Is he he hates chickens or whatever it is, you know, whatever damn thing, but they're they're literally saying that they can imagine what he's thinking and feeling and I look at it and go. I don't know I would have guessed exactly the opposite of that but I can't read minds either, you know, maybe it's just my bias, but I know you can't read minds, you know a pretty sure I can.
Aunt but I know you can't either so I think it's that mind reading illusion the placing of intent on Strangers. That's just ruining
everything and they'll always do it. Like no matter what I put out there on social media. I'll have some people call me a lib tarred and some people call me a trump card like because I because for me, I don't really I don't really care enough to let people know what I think I care about other things that I feel are a little are.
You know not not judging people who care about political issues. I just don't believe any politicians enough to care about you know, what's going on in that Arena, but people care so much they will hate you and they will assume you're on the opposite side. If you don't immediately agree with them, that's where the mental they're trying to read your mind. And if you don't agree exactly then you're all the way on the other side, but in terms of persuasion going from now to the election, what's how would you outline the different games that?
That or narratives that Biden and Trump need to have like one question is does make America great again, and I'm just talking technically. Does that work as a slogan for Trump trying to win over fence sitters? No, I think I don't
think it would be the best idea to reuse is slogan. I guess this is the first time you could say again and maybe get people to agree that he means you know, that one right 19th. Yeah, but that's a little too much mental.
Gymnastics and and the has been so demonized, you know, the the logo that it's just time to retire. It did its job. It will go into the history books as one of the top slogans and persuasion and branding of all time, but it's time to retire it. I would say in terms of strategy and persuasion Trump just needs to stay out of trouble because things are really good as start a heading his way in a major way if you just look at the
The trends that you know are fairly certain that the economy is coming off a low spot. So the percentage increase will look impressive just the way Obama looked impressive and I think you did a good job by the way of bringing us off the bottom of the economic crisis. So you always get those gains and those gains are going to be kicking in just about election day. It's going to look
impressive. I'll remind people from your book. I believe it was from when big lie, you know stating direction is more important than stating state so he doesn't have to say
You know, these are the number of jobs lost. He just says, oh, we're 8% up every month. It's the biggest since 1959 blah blah blah.
Yeah. So I think the economy is going to look like surprisingly good. I was on the camp of saying way early. I was telling everybody look. I know it looks like a Great Depression you are going to be so surprised that this is way better than you think the recovery part so far so good. I don't want to get ahead of myself, but that was based on the assumption that our ability to communicate
Anna Kate was so good and people were already trained for the jobs that they were going into so it should have been easier. So the economy will be pro-trump by far. Then there you've got the coronavirus. I think I think people are going to look around the world and see that there's all kinds of mixed things. You don't know why anything was wrong. But here's the argument Trump can make I followed the experts recommendations with one major exception and I was right which was closing travel from
China when he did, that's the only time he deviated from the experts and he was unambiguously
right? And so that the other side the CNN will say you didn't have a travel ban because hundreds of thousands of people were traveling freely if they weren't Chinese Nationals,
so it seems like there's a response for everything. Yeah. Yeah, but in terms of what the public and the voters will understand that kind of nuance gets a little bit lost, you know, but it is true. He clothes drying clothes this
Somebody could have closed more now. So and then the back to school thing I think is going to work really strongly to his favor and the fact that he wanted to encourage people to reopen businesses and getting the economy before the medical experts were quite comfortable with it. I think that works in his favor with the public because the public knows this is going to be costly they know people are going to die and they choose it. I think it's the popular choice.
Just don't like to verbalize it is but they understand it. It's you know, the coronavirus is basically a war in which children and the senior citizens were and scripted enlisted or inscripted. They didn't want to be but they're in the fight and it's a fight for civilization basically because we met we got to keep the lights on we got to keep the economy running. It's not about grade. It's about making sure poor people can eat and get health care and all that and it's a war and people
Are going to die and I think that Trump did a good job of sort of describing it as a war early on but I think he could carry that into the economic opening because we're going to see the death ray rise that the feels like that's a guarantee. You know, I hope not but it looks like at least a little bit is going to rise and I think you should just say look nobody wanted this war, but we're all in it and it's not going to be pretty but this is still the best path and I think I think the Public's going to
Be on that side and then the next Trend and you're seeing a quite I think clearly is Biden's Decline and I think you'll have to skip all of the debates. It's the only shot he has and I think that if he does people are going to understand why
also if you were if you are abide in Steam and lets, you know, assume Biden has a smart team, what would be the messaging? They're like, let's let's see
deal man this like what what should bite and do to win
actually, I think everything he's doing suggest that he has excellent advisors at the moment because they are keeping them out of the public that's smart. They're announcing plans where the plan can be the star for a while. So here's my two trillion dollar climate change plan. And then it's the plan. That's the news not Biden trying to talk. So that's brilliant. I think simply keeping him exactly where he is.
The poles are suggesting that that's what people want. So don't make a mistake and BB plan oriented and that's probably the best they can do.
How does he navigate the debate problem? Because you're right. He probably can't do a debate but like you say if he doesn't do a debate It's Tricky. They're gonna call. I mean all the news will say, you know, they can't do a debates for a coronavirus but clearly could do a debate on Zoom for
Instance like how does he how does he navigate that from if you were him? How do you navigate that from persuasion perspective?
Well, you could I guess the best way to navigate that is to say debates don't work and you might say especially they don't work if Donald Trump is the other person we're working with but let me suggest something better. You know, why don't you send us some questions and we'll give you more detailed answers and perhaps we could have some back and forth, but
This little arbitrary time limit on answering doesn't serve the public it would endanger people because it would bring us together. No matter carefully we were but it's not going to help the public. So why should we do this? Here's a better idea. I'll tell you what, I think you can set up the questions. I'll say this week CNN will ask all the questions and both of us will answer maybe have a little into play, you know a couple of rounds of that but then the public can see exactly what we're up about, you know exactly what our plans are and
We won't have these arbitrary time limits and interruptions and things that don't help
anyway.
And it's interesting. So alright, so I know look I appreciate you coming on the podcast. I we texted back and forth just this morning and a few hours later. We're on the podcast. I super appreciate it. I your are you on your honeymoon like what's going on? You just got married.
I'm self quarantined. I have a minor surgery from sinus stuff in a few weeks and part of the process during coronavirus is you have to be quarantined for two weeks before surgery. So
So no Hawaii, it's not well, there was no place to go. Yeah, so we had postponed the honeymoon just until we had some place to go.
So final question in the past few months. Obviously, you've been Super Active on Twitter. You've been studying the persuasion, you know, philosophies of all these different political parties and sides and so on. What's what's a new favorite persuasion technique that has risen to the top that has impressed you and has risen to the top.
Top this all because I know there's gotta be one. I'm always looking for these and if one happens, I'll tell you mine. Okay, there's this one is called qualifying which is basically if someone attacks you you don't defend you never use the word. I like I didn't say that you say you make them qualify like, you know, who are you to really ask me that or where were you that you know, I think this or whatever so you make someone else and prove their qualifications and that gives you status
I can see that I'm not sure if this qualifies as new but one of the most effective things you can do and I haven't used enough is that is to ask a question that simply allows the person to talk themselves into it later. So in other words, it's a little Question Time Bomb and let me give you an example. Let's say you're a conservative and you want to convince people to like Trump, but they think he's a big old racist and you say you know, here we are you saying?
Yeah, there's a lot of lot of people talking about that but I've got this question. I haven't figured out yet if he was supporting those people marching in Charlottesville, like you say and calling them find people when they were clearly chanting anti-semitic things. I'm trying to figure out why Israel hasn't noticed that yet because that's exactly the sort of thing. They're looking for, you know, you'd think that there are sensors would pick that up at like hey, he's supporting those guys, who are
Somatic, we hate him, but in fact, they're putting his picture on buildings and he's the most popular president Israel ever. I'm trying to figure it out. Do you have any insight into that and you just that's just an example, right? But you can find lots of examples here's that here's another easy one. You know, I remember all the things that people said would go wrong because the presidency and one of them is they say you'll ruin international relations, and I'm trying to think which
Which country would not take our call because of trump because you know, I follow the news but I haven't seen anything like that. There must be something like that by now with all the trouble he's caused but if you wanted to let's say do a deal with Canada or Russia with a not take his call. How does that work? Yeah, and what a specific ways are we damaged because we're the laughing stock of the world. So they won't do a trade deal or can you explain what that looks like and actual?
Is I can observe so so those are just two
examples. I like it because it's it's a talent stack of persuasion techniques, right? Because you have one technique was his don't never disagree with somebody just take what they're saying and add to it. And when you do add questions, you're sort of giving them status in such a way that they're not going to want to disappoint you.
Yeah, and and
so it works
for a part of the technique is from a hypnosis.
Technique which instead of being The Outsider who's disagreeing and then you're immediately framed as the enemy and nothing gets through you immediately take their side, but you take it like Stephen Colbert when he's playing, you know, the ridiculous character I so you see you take the side but you you add some Ridiculousness to it that you've been makes them CRI Alright, you're even on my side and I that it doesn't make sense to me.
Perfect. Well Scott Adams once again,
Relations on your marriage good luck on surgery. Try not to get hunted down too much. And once again, thanks for coming on the on the
show. Thanks so much for having me. It's always a
treat.
