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I've invited dr. Kate Shanahan back on the show today. She was on hundreds of episodes ago talking about how she had transformed the Lakers diet so they could include more fat and they performed much better. But now she has a new book that just hit the New York Times list that talks about the kind of fat that's in our bodies that is at the root of inflammation. And dr. Kate is really legit. She's been 18 years working as a physician and a nutrition specialist and she and I are going to go
You've been deep with you on what different fats do we don't agree on everything but we agree on almost everything. So if there's a knock-down drag-out battle, I'll probably lose Kate welcome to the show.
Thanks for having me back on Dave. It's been too
long. You know, I actually just realized this you were on really early as well around bulletproofing the NBA and then we talked about vegetable oil. So you and I are both long standing in for
Than a decade saying vegetable oils
dumb. We're vegetable oil Blood Brothers. Yes.
Yeah. There you go, except we don't like put that on our palms and Shake because that would be even worse than just blood. So before we get into the fat burn fix, which is your new book which thank God is Not Another dirty ghetto book if it's fat eat it if it's not a carb eat it and then these people get all inflamed like the original Atkins people. So you you and I are hundreds in agreement G. Does it matter but
Why are you such a fat Fan?
How did you get here?
Well, it was a very long interesting journey and it didn't I did not post not born a fat loving doctor. I was born the usual like, you know, the usual doctor, but I was an athlete and I started to really dive deep into fats because partly because I had to question everything that I learned in medical school about nutrition because you know, I think your listeners know
Well that doctors don't learn a whole lot about diet and nutrition but we do learn is wrong. You know, we learn that fat makes you fat and salt raises hypertension causes hypertension and cholesterol clogs your arteries. Most of the things you're going to need a doctor's office or our myths and for that partly for that reason a lot of doctors don't even bother giving people diet advice because we can't get into it. You know, we can't we don't we're not excited about failure and we've seen this kind of advice fail ourselves.
So, you know, it's it's it's sad but I was always into biochemistry. And before I went to medical school and I actually went to Cornell to study biochemistry. So when I had my little Revelation I had to have my like rebirth as a doctor, which was because I you know, I was really sick and I couldn't get better so I had to learn about nutrition to get better and I learned
was really tall hinged on fat everything about the Awakening that I had hinged on the idea that I was so sure because I learned in medical school that saturated fat was bad and you know animal fat was bad and animal products are generally bad, but I had to do this deep dive into the biochemistry of it all to realize that you know, that was radically wrong and and I had to just become really
Expert in the chemistry of how our body processes fats and how our body stores fat when I was working with the Lakers, you know, I was promoting. I was helping them understand some of what you know, my Reawakening had involved which is that, you know, it's not that status bad for us. It's that these processed fats in the vegetable oils are bad and everything you make with them is bad, but natural fat is good and that is actually
The best fuel for athletes even if they're not cardio athletes, even if their team sport athletes the body when we eat carbs or when we eat protein while we have to store energy as fat the most prevalent fatty acid, we store it with is basically your high-octane doubled its two of them stuck together, but then we decide to rate it right in the middle to form a kink. It's a double bond there that's easily broken. So if
you're fat adapted your body was soon as that big fatty acid gets into a cell it goes right into another specialized chamber in the cell breaks in half and now it can go straight into the mitochondria and be burned really quickly. So the whole reason that dietitians say that fat is not good for athletes. It's not the ideal Fuel and sugars better is because they don't know this one fact if they just understood that this speeds up the whole process.
Makes it such a better fuel faster than sugar. In fact, in terms of being able to get energy from it from the point of entry into the cell. Then you know, all of Sports Nutrition would have to be turned upside down
but I actually was trying to get a study approved with an IRB institutional review board to prove whether or not liquid was good for athletes. And so what I was going to do is I was going to give half the athletes drinking water or soda drinking bottle full of gasoline.
Lean and the other half full of water and see which one's perform better and then we could see whether liquids were good for them or not. Apparently someone knew that was a stupid idea yet that same institutional review board would be happy to say let's study to see whether fats good for you. But are you telling me dr. Gate that different fats do different things in the human body?
Yes, they would
dare you say such a thing. Like I am offended what implications does this have for all of those?
What the health game-changers only eat vegetables and their accompanying vegetable fats
people. Oh my gosh. It is so crazy that we are insisting that humans animals humans eat fats that came from seeds instead of fats that came from other
animals ourselves kind of choke on those fats. Don't they
especially in the amounts that we consume them now, right. I mean here's here's where everybody
You know gets confused and I don't mean like everybody but I mean the people that stand behind canola oil and Seed oils and
say well because they can stand before they kind of bent and wobbly. Sorry. That's what happens when you eat that
way they do age quickly. Yes, it's all it's an age accelerant absolutely all kidding aside. That's true. But the the
Craziness is that we do need a little bit of these polyunsaturated fats in our bodies. We do just like we need a little bit of vitamin A and we need a little bit of you know, our bodies need to contain a little bit of sugar in the blood, but that doesn't mean we need to eat a ton of sugar what it doesn't need which doesn't mean we need to eat a ton of process seed oils to be able to get the right amount of polyunsaturated fatty acids, the Omega-3s and omega-6s, but when we get as many as we're getting it,
it's kind of like we're changing the recipe to manufacture humans specifically our body fat, right so our our body fat is actually the biggest organ in our body, right? And if you're overweight it can weigh as much as on you can weigh a hundred pounds away 200 pounds by Far and Away the biggest organ in our body and nobody's talking about what's in it. What's what kind of what is it doing? What's in there? What's in that foul kind of fat is in there and it turns out that you can do is you can find out easily. You just do a biopsy
And send it off to a specialized lab. I mean we can't get our doctor can't order this test but researchers have done this and they found that modern body fat is up to 30 percent poly unsaturated fatty acid. So, okay. What does that mean? Well, it's putting it in context a hundred years ago before seed oils the body fat percentage of kufa polyunsaturated. I'm going to say poof of now on so tongue-tied is used to be somewhere between two and three
three percent maybe as much as five percent because it would vary depending on what a person was eating. But nowhere near the 30% that you can find today as a range even stay like, you know on the low end it could be like, you know fifteen percent unless a person is specifically avoiding these things but the average person somewhere around 20 to 25% And now what does that mean? Well, that's the million-dollar question. So what well what it means is we've been living in this we've been living in this giant experiment for one.
Right because we've started eating fats that we know are great for seeds instead of fats that are great for Animals. Okay, so that's a huge experiment. So anybody who says I'm promoting a fad diet. No, this is like the opposite of a fad diet. It's the antidote to this experimental fad diet that we've been on
one of the things that I really dug into from an anti-aging perspective for superhuman was look we've got to control inflammation in the body and one of the big things you do.
Is the type of fat you eat and this goes back to your very first book this goes back to the first bulletproof diet book from 2014, but there's some new science have come out around mice and it's like the fate of fats when you eat them and I did not know this. In fact, the research has even been published when you and I wrote our first books and this was in mice but it's likely true in humans, but they looked at the the deposition of the type of fat and where it went and what do you know if you eat
Seed oils the percentage of seed oil in your body fat goes up radically, but your brain will always pin the amount of saturated fat that's in there and your heart will do different things. So there's sort of Ideal ratios for different cells, but if you want to really change the ratio of fat in your body just eat some seed oil and your white fat becomes full of seed oil way faster than anything else. So these people who are coming up with 30% of their fat being from seeds because they well they went on a healthy plant-based diet. Sorry guys those words
It's actually like Military Intelligence. They don't actually exist. But oxymorons for all of us the the difficulty. There is a lot of people don't understand what happens with poof has in your body fat. That's subcutaneous fat. What do they do?
What happens with poof has in your body fat that subcutaneous fat? What do they
do? They are pro-inflammatory. So they make your body fat inflamed essentially. And what does that mean? What does it mean to be inflamed? Well for one thing it causes eventually once it once the percentage gets high enough in your body fat. It causes your fat cells to be unable to properly divide. So well why
That actually sounds like a good thing. Right and I'm sure that has been used to spin that a polyunsaturated fats are good because they prevent fat cells from dividing you get in the way of what your body wants to do with always bad. And so if your fat cells can't divide when you neat if if you're still in the process of gaining weight, then where does the fat go well in your arteries and that's what happens. Actually literally that's what happens fat become your fat cells essentially become incontinent.
Continent, right? So what's happening is? Yeah, your you've got Transporters that will bring in fat but the but then at the same time the fat cells are like, oh I can't take anymore. I can't divide don't have any room. So they export them at the right afterwards. And so this is why you find that when people have fairly Advanced type 2 diabetes there their fatty acid levels in their blood are high even though their insulin levels are high and
So this is kind of like a geeky topic but it's important if you're into low-carb because in the low-carb World they talk all the emphasis is on carbs. Obviously. It's the whole world is named after that and they talk about insulin like it's the cause of everything and so what is the cause of insulin resistance insulin as cause of these the problems with your fat cells?
What happens if your insolence really? Hello? Dr.
Kate?
Yeah, if you don't have enough insulin and you need it, you have type 1
diabetes and your odds of dying from all-cause mortality go up from low insulin more than high insulin, right?
Yes. Absolutely. So, you know, we can't ever blame something that occurs naturally in our body for long because every time we've done that whether it was cholesterol or saturated fat it stir it turns out we've been wrong but polyunsaturated fats. They don't occur naturally in our body. We have to eat
them. Well, then you said they do in
Very small amounts of what you're saying. The body doesn't manufacture them. And that is totally true. Right? Yeah, that's why they're called conditionally essential. But if you eat a piece of cow, you'll get enough of them. Basically. You don't need much at all other than what maybe some EPA or something.
Well, yeah, you do need some you do need the proof has and you have the cow piece that you eat has to be fatty right have some keys or you know, dairy fat is also going to be a great source of the stuff. So it's not hard to come by you don't have to supplement if your if your body is healthy.
He and your diet is balanced. But the the inkatha get that getting back to the incontinent fat cells what happens when a person is got too much pufa in their fat cells explains a lot more than all these insulin theories. It explains why a person reaches is another as a dr. Nadir Ali has a really great cardiologist who realized he also went through kind of like the Looking Glass like I did Andre.
Everything we learned about nutrition is backwards. So he's coined this term which I love your personal fat threshold. Right? And he says like after you get to a certain amount of percentage of body fat you become insulin resistance and and your fat cells can't hang onto fat and it spills out
body fat threshold. Not a how much you can eat fresh.
Correct. That's very important distinction in your body fat. So, you know, that's important because like if you are different different races have different seem to
have different thresholds, right? If you're Asian, you seem to have a lower threshold before you'll become diabetic. But what everyone no matter your race the problem is the seed oil consumption you because you reach that personal fat threshold faster and your fat cells become incapable of hanging onto fat and preventing it from spilling and your arteries faster. The more seed oils are in your diet because these poof has are pro-inflammatory. They prevent your fat cells from dividing and you know, that's just one of the
Any problems that they cause in the proper and fix I do talk about how they just are couldn't be better engineered to cause metabolic problems and they get this pass because you know from Harvard which is where most of the doctors the official doctor thought comes from because they are essential like you said the body cannot manufacture them. So we need to eat some the
additionally essential are the long chain fatty acids, right? So so we if we eat the short-chain fatty acids, we can turn them into long chain fatty acids, which our brain needs right? So we definitely definitely need to have these things in our diet, but we don't need more than we need and that's that's where all of this experiment began because back in the 50s we discovered. Oh, we need some of these things. Well, we need some and they're in our brain.
More is better. Right? And so if we eat more of these things that build our brain, how can that be bad? So and that's about I mean that that is about the depth of the whole thought process and PSO is a huge huge conflict of interest in going any deeper into that thought process because Procter & Gamble was funding the American Heart Association starting in the early 1950s Procter & Gamble manufacturer of cuddly made from cotton seed oil.
One of the first seed oils to be produced and the industrial process perfected. And so you take like this semi science like quasi science. Well, if some is good more is better and you take conflict of interest from industry producing these things and 50 years later. You have a nation that is unhealthy because we're eating what we think is healthy fat.
Isn't that crazy?
It definitely changed my life. When I figured this out. I did lose 50 pounds of the hundred pounds. I had to lose. Geez. This is back when I was in my early 20s and and you'd see all you go to low carb conference a long time ago. And there's all these incredibly fat people and either 3 400 pounds and you're going this is like the worst conference ever. This clearly doesn't work. Then you talk to them like, oh, yeah, I used to weigh.
More pounds and now I'm only 300 pounds. I love it. But this other hundred hundred fifty pounds, it won't go away. No matter what I do. Clearly. I'm still eating too many carbs because I ate for carbs yesterday or grams of carbs like so tomorrow. I'm only getting two grams of carbs. And you know, I measured my cream cheese and it was low to high income and I call that sort of the the keto trap even where look it doesn't work. That's the dirty keto aspect of it where oh just eat whatever fats
At you know, you could eat fried pork rinds fried and canola oil which they do sometimes for God knows whatever reason and say they're I did it and it's not the same as undamaged fat higher saturated fat diet. They're fundamentally different things but they get all munged up in people's minds. It's one of my big concerns with modern Quito as its evolved in the past, you know, six or eight years. It's that people are just eating the wrong kinds of hats and oh I do
Deep fried Brussels sprouts that's keto like know the f word is fried. And even if you fry it in let's say fried in ghee or coconut oil. What's that going to
do?
Well, not a lot bad because those are very stable saturated fatty
acids. They're stable mostly though, but when you are getting one of those things, is it really a hundred percent saturated fat?
No, of course not no no, and so if you deep fry and use it over and over again, then that's where you get into the most trouble. Absolutely even even with the healthy fat even with the healthy
fight even with the healthy fats when you fry with the healthy fat.
It becomes less healthy. So if you're going to live on that and deep-fried cream cheese balls, which I admit I have done in the early nineties and if I lived on him, but like oh that's a you know, that's a keto food. The problem is that you will get the inflammation over time in part because of the high temperatures and acrylamide 's and the damage but if you were to heat it up one time and do it, it's different like it like you can eat bacon. Just don't fry the crap out of it,
right? Yeah. So, you know, the low carb world has, you know a lot to offer and there's a lot of great.
The peas and very smart doctors there, but they make actually the same error that you know, the everyone else has been making that which is well if instead of if more if some is good more is better. It's if less is good. None is better right the kind of what might this
be true of animal products as
well. Right?
Like I will tell you eating too much meat is bad for you. The data is overwhelming clear too much of those types of amino acids from
Um animal-based proteins are bad for you by the way too much plant protein is also bad for you. So then they say will eat none and it's a guys there's there's a dose. It's in the
middle. So you're killing me up now to plug my other book here deep nutrition because it's like, okay. Well, what do we eat? The others? Clearly? There's got to be some rules, right? It can't just be like look at one thing and say, oh, well that's bad. So it's never eat that or look at another thing that's been associated in some poorly done.
You with problems and yada yada and on and on but there are rules and and with the first book The attrition what my husband and I because my husband helped me write the first one. So it's really wonderful writing in there as fun to read people tell me all the time. They read it to their children believe it or not. Yeah. So we all we did was we had occurred to us that we didn't need to start from scratch with nutrition science. And that's kind of the kind of the position that the American Heart Association wants us to
Take and believe that's kind of the position that Harvard has is that we didn't know nothing about nutrition prior to scientists getting involved with their white coats and isolating things from food and studying them in isolated cells on Petri dishes. That's really that's science. But no, my husband died. We say we stamp our foots down and we say absolutely there's another kind of Science and that is the art of raising healthy children, and that's what people did that's what people
Like if we didn't know how to raise healthy children there wouldn't be humans. Right? So we have to kind of respect that recipes that are traditional that have been handed down from generation to generation. There's something very important happening there and what my husband and I did was we was just analyzed old cookbooks and old recipes to look at what every single one of them had in common and we found the that there were four things that would call this a four pillars and we write about them and what they are. So those are the rules and the rules don't come.
From know where they come from generations of
success. Let me ask you something there. By the way, I love your mindset in. My first book was also it was on pregnancy and nutrition to build Healthy Babies starting from day 0 or day- nine months. However, you want to you want to call it better and
If you look at different genetics, you mentioned earlier for instance young people from China of just Asia or China was it specifically Chinese because there's different subcategories within Asia that different genes.
However, the similarity in terms of their where they seem to be get metabolically and healthy as at a lower body fat percentage. So he got together in this
case Okay, so from that perspective and then in a recent show I did we actually talked about how if you are from the western part of Africa
Or you have certain genes around heart disease that are substantially higher than average. By the way. It's the same if you're from from the far Scandinavian countries, but if you're from Central Europe or other parts of Africa, you don't have these. So what that means is you kind of go back and say what did your ancestors eat? But if you are from say western Africa, you're eating your pounded roots that like cassava that generally, you know, my northern European ancestors, but I have that Gene.
So my ancestors didn't have a lot of pounded cassava. I didn't know what they were eating like dead fish or something. But what whatever that comes down to are those rules the same for all of us or is it more like you have to look at what your body needs?
Well, there's that too. There's there's some there's some slight customization in the but not much. So the for what we call the four pillars their broad categories, so every single diet can be contained within these broad categories.
Corey so they're things like fresh food, right? So at food that hasn't been even heated so that because heat destroys antioxidants and it destroys some vitamins heat sensitive items. So that's like a big broad category. And another one is fermented food. What everybody you know, now we have to a lot of us rely on probiotics and stuff, but we used to ferment our food and have it live living bacteria in
there. What about the other two categories? We got the raw stuff the fermented stuff what else
meat on the bone by which I mean including the actual bow.
In the ligaments and even the skin and of course the fact that when it's suitable right like not cowskin necessarily, but but
there's a cracklins part pork skin.
Yes, and the reason that this skin and the joints are beneficial and even the bone being in that like a soup that you boil to make stock out of as because it there either special factors in there that are a combination of protein and sugar. So it's neither. It's not in a macro.
Three it's a category all by itself. It's
like the same it like chondroitin and hyaluronic acid
or yes, like because they are mixtures of amino acids and sugars and they act like signaling molecules as do collagen hydrolysate and its really good for your collagen based issues because it actually acts like a growth factor to make your fiber wrath fibroblast pump belt more collagen.
What do people say or what do you say to people say? Oh, yeah. Well, you know, there's been vegetarians and what
Part of the world. There's never been vegans anywhere for very long because they get infertile. Sorry guys, like let's just face facts. I try and be vegan for two or three generations. There won't be no more babies problem solved so but vegetarian you can do it, but they're not getting their collagen. How are they doing this? I leaving anything on a bone,
right? Yeah. It's not they're not and you know, I mean there haven't been your vegetarians for Generation after generation when I asked folks who are born and
Raised in India. Okay, tell me about like what does it mean to be a vegetarian and they're like, well, we include be
chicken,
you know, so like when when we say things we had were very careful about our terms because first of all even in this country, we know vegetarian means many things. It means you might eat you might eat fish. For
example
Well at that point like I'm a lacto-ovo be Pope or covid getaria. Now, I feel very good about that. But end of the day if you're eating only vegetables, you're not going to get the fats. But if you're vegetarian you're eating egg yolks and you're eating butter and cheese and suddenly your fatty acid ratio looks a lot more like a human's and a lot less like a vegetables.
Yeah. You can do the macros right you can you can you can do you can be you can get healthy fats. You can have a very healthy metabolism without
Out eating you can be vegan, but I am not convinced that you can have healthy children for three generations. If everyone has been vegan.
Hold on a second. You're not
convinced know.
What do you really believe
Kate? I think it would be bad. You know, I think it would be you know, if you if you are vegan and you're pregnant you really want to read a little bit more about
Traditional diets and epigenetics because your I believe actually that, you know, you could be putting Children at Risk and you wouldn't necessarily be get you wouldn't be getting the healthiest
child. I got sworn at at the Milken conference in Dubai recently. I was on a panel talking about health and and I said well look we don't have to worry about the vegan diet because it reduces fertility and it makes it harder to have healthy kids and it shrinks kids brains and one of the members of the royalty who is in the room.
I'm swore at me publicly. Then. We had a really good conversation after he's like, but we've been vegan. I had kids. I'm like, yeah, but like it's kids kids kids epigenetics. And so we both walked away from it, you know kept laughing about the whole situation because we disagree but man I have 1300 references in and five years writing a book on fertility when my wife was a medical doctor wasn't fertile telling you the reason we got fertile was we got our fats, right? But oh, I have a pretty serious question for you about a certain kind of
Of fat and oh, wait, hold on before we go to that question. You gave us three of the four pillars. What's the fourth pillar? It's got to be like fiber or some kind of carbs.
It's the farthest thing from fiber its organ meat
organ Meats. So there are oh because Eskimos don't need any of that stuff or any went or any of the very far Northern tribes and they can live without that. All right. I got
you because it deserves its own category because we don't consider it edible basically and you know in America we fetus or animals, we make carpet backing out of it.
But it is so essential at to Optimal Health, right? Because liver for example is one of the best sources of B vitamins and bioavailable iron
livers gross kit. Can we just
agree?
Yes, you can make anything for us. You can make anything gross, but you can if you know what you're doing. You can also make anything taste good. And so that's the that's the reason that we lost our taste for it in this country because we it's harder to make tastes good and it's one of those things though that if you grew up eating it, you have a special love for it because it reminds you of your childhood and your body knows that it was good you
my wife is like that you give her like a chicken liver pate and she goes crazy and
That's horrifying. How can you want to eat that? I'm like holding my nose. So what I do is I just take dried liver capsules and I'm okay with that they desiccated liver and that's what my kids do as well because even though we gave them ever since they were little after they were three they like actually this doesn't taste good. We don't care that you gave it to us. So maybe even though I'm good cook. Maybe I'm not a liver master. So okay that that's fascinated. Those are the four things. But the okay the four things to recap for listeners giving it. Just just what
are the four things that every healthy diet on the planet throughout all of history includes. What are the four?
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Just what are the four things that every healthy diet on the planet throughout all of history includes. What are the
four fresh food fermented and sprouted food meat on the bone organ Meats?
No carbs,
bam.
Many of them may include carbs but they don't all include carbs.
No, I mean you can talk with you could have carbs in there or the macros is a it's like another dimension of a way to describe food. So there they can coexist or they can be excluded from each other, right? You do not need to eat the macros and the necessary necessarily weed. I mean actually we do need each certain amino acids and certain fatty acids, but the amounts can there's so much flux in there as long as
Actually eating Whole Foods and we're eating the four pillars, right you it's kind of hard to go wrong. Unless you're on a really restricted I diet and I almost said Island because that get ahead of myself when people move to Islands or when people are living sort of on a food Island. Like what was that tribe that everybody was talking about like 10 years ago in the land the Paleo world like there was something I ate a lot of
Those oh, yeah in the in Peru or somewhere.
These aren't the coconut oil and starch people who smoked all the
time. No, it was like some some tribe of in the Andes. I think they were way high in a mountain. There were not a lot of foods that grew their potatoes were one. They basically they had to have restricted their diet because they were so they had been like chased up the mountain and then and if you what nobody was talking about was that they were physically a lot smaller. They're like, you know, the adults were like adult men were like 4 feet tall.
That's what happens if you use they're still following four pillars, but their macros were radically different they didn't get enough protein and so nature is really smart. It's just it's programmed to make the Next Generation have less bone mass. So their height was less and they just preserve the ability to be healthy with less by making people smaller and it's not that it's not that they're bad or less. They're not less healthy. They can be
Has to be healthy, but they just have to be smaller. And it does that matter. Well, yes and no, I mean it does matter possibly why they were so isolated was because they would lose the fist fight if they were fighting against somebody who was physically bigger so they had to basically isolate themselves. Right? So the that's how you get these extreme diets that were people are still healthy and you can use them in these examples. I wish I could remember the name of the tribe, but
But everybody was talking about it back in like 2012 whole life starches and everything like that.
It's one of those things where like if you came from that tribe and those are your people you probably are going to do well on a higher potato diet for real because your production of energy it was optimized for that stuff. And if you try to go eat some completely other diet, you might just thrive on it or it might not work at all for you and it that's the the learning that's what it feels like asthma.
Sing a lot of the time. Yeah. All right. Let's get in some some oils. There's a toils that you say in your new book that you're saying. These are the worst ones and these are also the ones that you say and I agree with you by the way increase your risk of getting inflammatory conditions from covid. What are these eight evil oils?
Well, I called the hateful eight. So so they are three C's and 3 S's.
We have corn canola cottonseed soy sunflower safflower. And then the other two which are mostly find in restaurants are grape seed and rice, bran oil and the reason they're all bad and hateful is because they are mostly polyunsaturated their way too much polyunsaturated to be processed which they are to remove from the seed and they have to be refined bleached and deodorized and that's another reason why when you have even healthy fats that have been used over and over and over again.
Like this gets me to another thing that you brought up earlier the processing strips away the minerals and the vitamins that stabilize these very unstable fatty acids in the seed that nature puts in there so that when we eat whole seeds, I'm not saying that eating corn or soy it's going to give you toxic fats. I'm saying that eating soy oil and corn oil will though because the spats are unstable and they deteriorate even in the bottle. There's five percent of
of unnatural fats in the bottle. So you're eating these you're eating these things that are really very highly toxic. They have long names like for hydroxy non and all but they are known carcinogens and you're eating them and like Graham amounts on a daily basis. So it's kind of like a miracle that we can even like exist on these things. But that's why we have like this three generation thing that's happening. Now. It's the third generation where these things these things have been in the food supply and
The generation born in 2000 is basically there they are predicted to develop diabetes and have a shorter life span than the generation prior to that for the first time in modern history.
I'm counting on my grandkids to just kick ass. That's all I'm saying. Not that I have grandkids. But if I ever do you many many years from now given what I fed my kids and what I was eating long before that and my wife as well, maybe we've we've turned that around for at least a few of us and when people read your
books when people tuned in on this whole movement, I think that there are going to be some people who are fantastically long lived 50 years from now and it's because of the stuff we were doing now and it will become a very serious and an unfair Advantage if your parents ate the right stuff, but it already is like right now if your parents ate healthy stuff, you're healthier. Yeah, and it's a multi-generational thing and it's totally not fair it really you don't get to pick what your parents ate when when they were
In you you don't get to pick what your parents fed you when you were young and it is it's a big issue of equality where we quality food should be available everywhere and it definitely isn't and even where it is available many people don't choose it because they don't know any better and well it's
wrong. I think that they exactly it is wrong and we're lied to and this is what makes this whole issue political because the reason the reason that we talked about that we have all these lies that doctors
learned that polyunsaturated, you know oils are healthier than saturated is because they're in the 70s with the I think it was the Nixon Administration. There were worried about food shortages. And so they they tied the USDA that government guidelines of what you people should eat to what we could grow more of so that we would simply have more calories to be able to feed people more people right? So it's it's all a
A quantity over quality political choice and and the US government decided that we want quantity over quality. We need more and more and more. That's the structure of capitalism and you have to lie to people though to get them to buy into that right? Because if you were telling people the truth that olive oil is the healthiest one of the healthiest plant oils, but we only
we have three percent of the planet that can grow it versus humongous percentage you a hundred times that much that can grow the hateful eight seed oils like canola the corn the soil you have to Lost start lying to people about what is healthy to sell it to them. And that's what's happened.
Here's what's particularly noxious and evil about that because of my work as founder bulletproof. I've had the opportunity to meet CEOs of some of the world's largest food and beverage.
It's out there and many of them we've had these kind of private conversations that are hey, how do I get people to pay even one cent more for something that has a healthier oil or has a healthier profile because right now if I make my, you know atrocious junk food sugar bomb with bad fats, whatever you want to call it. If I increase the cost by one cent. I lose market share and people will buy something else. So there's sort of this race to the bottom and what
Is really happening. There is that if we had it written down and acknowledged in science because it's true not because it's economically useful that oh, these saturated fats are useful and healthy, and these other fats are not we could have by now hybridized or even genetically engineered canola and corn and all these things to make olive oil or to make any other kind of oil that we wanted but instead of doing that and helping to bend our our
Good crops to our will via natural or even unnatural means because hey they already do that. I'm not advocating for that instead we've done is we've just grown more of the crap. Right and that is why these scientific lies and those are Lies We Know a hundred percent these polyunsaturated fats these eat more vegetable oils. The people who say that there's a special place in hell for them there is because that's what the science says the science that studies hell, you know, it's a rare major. But anyway, so I'll get off my soapbox.
soapbox, but I'm with you accept.
What about soybean lecithin, which is a fat and sunflower lecithin, which is a fat are those bad
too. Well, they can be yes that so the so the reason that they can be is because the soybean lecithin is going to have the same fatty acids as soy bean oil. It's just that it's people don't know what lesson is so
The fat is a triglyceride. So the Three fatty acids lecithin is an emulsifier. That's why it's added to Foods. It makes mayonnaise, you know, it keeps the consistency nice and smooth. It helps are stay are an oil Emulsion that is mayonnaise. So lecithin is made out of two fatty acids instead of three So when you say soy lecithin you are you're probably actually adding a much more expensive product.
So you're probably not going to be adding that much of it. Thank goodness. So it's while it's bad. It's not healthy. I wouldn't recommend it. It's not anywhere near capable of doing the damage that the seed oils are so that's why I like to keep things as simple as possible and it's simpler. I say just really look for the eighth seed
oils. You're opposed to lecithin in
general. I don't think it's well soy lecithin, right?
That's what about sunflower less than is there any other kind of lecithin like
There's no calluses and then I've been a little
fire Executives. There's less than in egg yolks, but and I don't even know if they use less I think is egg yolks have so much emulsifying property themselves that they just use egg yolks. So that's what traditionally was mayonnaise was made of is the emulsifier and mayonnaise and when we started saying, oh low cholesterol and stuff like this. We wanted mayonnaise without egg yolk. So we used soy lecithin ironically which is you know, not as healthy.
He and possibly you know pretty not healthy.
Well, there's all kinds of other problems with soy and contamination of glyphosate in things. Yes. So I did find when I was doing research on specifically the myelin sheath the lining of the nerves and the brain and even reducing fatty liver is it lecithin deficiency can be a real issue and the recipe for get some ice creams, like wait raw egg yolks and butter coconut oil and all these things and you blend them up. It's called get some ice cream. It's on.
Dave asprey bog and it's there because you eat it and an hour later I go to the bedroom because the body says look. Yeah. I got everything. I need to have a baby including all those saturated fats. So you have this weird effect that has been documented by hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of people are responding to those posts going. Oh my god, it worked but I am okay with adding sunflower lecithin yet a tablespoon of that to to something. It does improve the flavor, but it seems like neurologically in limited doses if you store it in the fridge, and it's
Not damaged, you're going to get those essential fats it is that too far off. Are you still like now that's a waste of time.
Well, it depends where you're at. Like, you know, if you aren't able to make lecithin in your body because you have so much this is actually an assumption one of the reasons that you can't make lecithin is because you have enzyme damage due to extreme inflammation. Hi Foofa
Seed oil consumption so that can't arrange a lot of different processes in your body. One of which certainly could be the ability to make less than
it could also be heavy metals. It could be mold toxins. It could be Lyme disease if although that's usually toxic mold or but it could be a chronic alato immune something bad is happening. So that would take you off and then you would supplement that's what you're saying.
Definitely definitely and it's so if you need less at than you need it, but but
If you could and if it is processed, you know more carefully than your standard seed oils then it wouldn't hopefully wouldn't have liked the toxic forms of the fatty acids that you're actually eating instead of the natural forms of the fatty acids, and I'm sure there's a way that you can analyze that to see if that's happening. Right? You know, you can put anything through the right kind of NMR analyzer to see what is the components of the polyunsaturated fatty acids. Have they broken down?
All have our they steal our is your process starting with the linoleic acid. That is the one of the common poof has and soy and is it ending with that or is that linoleic acid breaking down and you're actually getting some of these toxic things so you can actually measure that if you want to it's probably not cheap. But but if you do that, then you can know what's happening what's in there and that's a very important question that I think would could be, you know a huge Boon to people who do
Want to make these more easy shelf-stable like kinds of products for people who just don't want to be bothered with cooking at least you could you could start measuring. How is your process holding up? How are the fatty acids holding up to your process and there are easy ways. There's analyzers you can test so much stuff. So quickly these days if manufacturers would do that and kind of want to be like the better version of a processed food then you
We do that but there's also you know, there's another whole adoption and that is just use animal fat right is we've been ignoring the fact that it doesn't all have to be olive oil, right? It could certainly be just Tallow beef Tallow. That's what used to be in in McDonald's french fries. It was so common in restaurants in the deep fryers that and it's much more capable of standing up to the processing. It's probably a lot more shelf stable than certainly then, you know canola and soy
We and corn and all that sort of
thing then then again, no Kate back when they used to do that cows eat grass. So if you want use modern Tallow from industrial feedlot beef man, that just isn't really good for humans. The fat ratios are off. The animals are mistreated. There's antibiotic residues. It's environmentally destructive and they're mean to the animals like it doesn't work how how are people supposed to get this stuff? You can't get beef Tallow. I mean like like let's be kind of real.
There's hundreds of thousands of people listening to this. Where do they go to get good
fats? Well where I work the company I work for the you know, people are most of the employees are definitely not wear anywhere where they can access those kinds of good fats. And the fact is Bill. I mean seed oils are that bad for you that they are still better than like the the I don't want to advocate for the industrial food chain, but I can't tell people that they should be vegetarians. So
I said tell them do the best that you can write and some of the best fats out. There are the dairy fats because that is regulated it well, so it's not going to be as healthy as if it were grass, but it's regulated by The Animals by the mammary glands. And so the proportion of pufa and there is not as high as the proportion in the beef body fat, right because just like us if we eat too much poly amps.
Everybody else is our body fat is full of stuff same with the cows. Although they have a much more sophisticated digestive tract and it can it can like kind of helped a little bit right so that they're not going to be as much of a mirror as our body fat. They can eat more pufa and still have less in their body fat. Would you pay more for steak that tasted twice as good I would
be half as much so I have to pay the same amount or to the smaller steak that was better for you. You'll live
right what it's better for you.
Ew, it tastes better because flavor is nutrition chefs are the original nutritionists. That's why deep nutrition is all about, you know, respecting chefs and respecting culinary old-fashioned recipes. So there's a lot of recipe could be really short a traditional recipe but there's a lot of wisdom and knowledge and skill buried in in that and and that it that is the body of nutritional science that doctors used to respect but we you know, if we come full circle
call and come back and say oh yeah if if you want to really be in to help don't go to dietitian school don't be a dietitian or nutritionist go to culinary school and just focus on using real whole food ingredients because that's what everybody used to do
man it's to do you're reminding me that the the birth of the bulletproof diet came from looking at fertility and nutrition and then something called Molecular Gastronomy or modernist
machine which is where they take all these laboratory instruments and that I've had in my house for 20 years but they use them to make the food taste good without carrying one crap about how good it is for you so you eat most modernist cuisine you will feel like crap the next day but it would taste it so good it was probably worth it and I said what would happen if I took those things and we temperature control and oxygen flow in are flown all that and we the goal was food that makes you feel amazing number one and number two taste good and that's why the recipes
That's why we're much an alignment on this stuff. But you can use the tech to enhance and protect and support the flavor and what the food is supposed to do for you and that is very much in all of your work. It's built into it. So I think you've been right the whole time which is cool. But I reside never talked about that that idea of taking tack instead of it having a bad thing saying maybe you can actually support the goodness and the tech shows you that farmers food has more stuff in it. So
Healthy and use the tech to figure out what animals like really thrive on and you know use the tech to do the real legit kind of nutrition science which starts with the soil
and it shows us The ancestral stuff works. That's what the tech always shows. That's why I've course I'm in a measure of the soil and see you on my building more soil and know if there isn't cheap pooping nearby the soil doesn't work as well. Hmm. That seems like science. All right. I have one more question for you and our interview.
You said when you were on Bill Maher recently that the covid virus is taking advantage of our pro-inflammatory high pufa diet and that if we had quit eating this stuff five years ago. No one would get sick from coronavirus except for a few extreme autoimmune people you stand by that.
Yeah, absolutely. Well because for one thing it's not the coronavirus itself that's killing folks under 65. It's not that variant of a virus what's killing people under 65?
is their own immune systems that are working against them and that's happening because of years of eating seed oils when you're sick, you stop eating the seed oils the pouf has that have built up in your body fat get released into your bloodstream where they promote massive amounts of inflammation and that's how we get people dying who are young might even be normal weight and apparently healthy, but they are not metabolically healthy because the underlying
Condition they talk about underlying conditions and coronavirus like diabetes and fatty liver and overweight. Well the underlying condition underlying all those conditions is having body fat full of high pufa seed oils from a lifetime of thinking those things are just fine for you to eat not realizing how toxic
they are.
Well on that note. Thank you for being a guest on the show and thank you for your new book. I think that people who listen to the show are going to totally totally love reading the fat burn fix and guys, if you like the sort of things that that are in the bulletproof lifestyle that come from different people. There's a summary of knowledge here very specifically around fat types that is missing from your paleo diet. It's definitely missing from the world.
Quito and dr. Cates nailed it and it's easy to read so check out the fat burn fix. It is not the same sort of recycled. Oh, you know eat lots of kale or whatever sort of thing. That's not what we're talking about here. So check it out. Thanks. Again Kate.
Thanks Dave. It's been fun talking to you as always
and you guys know if you read a book and you like the book you go to Amazon and you take about two seconds to leave a review that says what you thought of the book and actually if you don't like the book you can leave a review. So if
If you like, dr. Cates fapper and fix leave an honest review because like all authors. She actually checks them just like I check my reviews because it tells us what we did right and what we didn't do right, but I'm telling you this book is going to get lots of good
reviews.
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