Optimal minimal
at this altitude. I can run flat out for a half mile before my
hands start shaking
when. I don't know. It's a cybernetic organism living tissue over metal endoskeleton.
This episode is brought to you by five. Pull it Friday. My very own email newsletter. It's become one of the most popular email newsletters in the world with millions of subscribers, and it's super, super simple. It does not clog up your inbox. Every Friday, I send out five bullet points, super short of the coolest things. I've found that week which sometimes includes apps books, documentaries supplements, gadgets new self experiments hacks, tricks and all sorts of weird stuff that I dig up from around the world. You guys podcast listeners
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That you'd dig it a lot and you can, of course, easily. Subscribe any time. So easy peasy. Again, that's Tim blog forward slash Friday and thanks for checking it out. If the spirit moves you, hello my friends. You muscular little Oompa-Loompas. Welcome to another episode of The Temper show. My name is Tim Ferriss and my job is to deconstruct. World-class performers people who are the best at what they do and to tease out the habits.
Routines findings that you can apply to your own life whether they are people like Arnold Schwarzenegger. Just prodigies like Josh waitzkin directors like Jon Favreau or Robert Rodriguez and hedge fund. Managers military strategists everyone in between today, we have a researcher dr. Brene Brown, and you can say hi to her on Twitter at brene. Brown is a research professor at the University of Houston, Graduate School of Social Work, and her 2010 tedx.
The power of vulnerability has more than 20 million views, it is one of the top five most view TED talks in the world which is very hard to pull off. She has other talks with millions and millions of views. So once you're lucky twice, you're good she is very good. She has spent the past 13 years, studying, vulnerability, courage, worthiness and shame. All of my favorites, Renee is the author of two. Number one, New York Times, bestsellers daring greatly in the gifts of imperfection her.
New book is titled Rising strong and in it. She writes, if we are brave enough often enough, we will fall. This is a book about what it takes to get back up and she interviews some very interesting folks, top performers in the corporate world, startup World, military world, and the gathers data to support the recommendations and conclusions in these books. So I have a copy of rising strong and encourage you to check it out. She's also the founder and CEO for the daring way, which is an organization that brings her
Work to organization schools, communities, and families. And without further Ado, I want to let you enjoy this wide-ranging conversation that touches on some sensitive topics you might say with dr. Brene brown
Renee, welcome to the show.
Thank you. I'm excited to talk to
you and my fans are excited to hear all of your wisdom and dig into your research. And I suppose we could, we could start with some context for those people who are not familiar with your work. When you are asked the question, what do you do? How do you answer that?
I really actually have two answers. I want, if I want to keep talking and want, if I don't. So if I don't want to keep talking I usually will just say, I'm a shame researcher and that scares people and then they usually go on they usually say. So what do you think about the Texans this season or something? And then if I'm in a normal conversation, I'll say that I study vulnerability and courage, shame and worthiness. And that's that's kind of terrible isn't it? But I do that.
I
think it's terrible. I think that you can do kind of a reverse George Costanza when you don't want to talk to someone if you're trapped on a plane or something. So instead of saying you know picking the most interesting thing to get them to admire you and say you're an architect, you can be like oh yes, no I'm a you could bring up something extremely awkward right? Like you know I research you know, off-color sex trafficking or something and they depending on who you're sitting next to suppose it could be a good character check. Right.
It's a total character Shack because if they launched in after they hear, I said he shame. Then that kind of bites me on the ass a little bit, but it's works pretty
well. You're like, you're not following the script pal, you're off script. So speaking of script, and I am not the only one who's been impressed with your presenting ability, but it seems like one of the ways that you really hit the mainstream map was through Ted and
Typically, I guess it would have been the power of vulnerability, although that that has more than 21 million views now and some of your other presentations and more than 5 million views. So certainly, you know, once you're lucky twice, you're good, you're good at this. Could you give people an overview of the components that make a hit speech, or Ted talk, because you're clearly good at it. It's not a one-hit. Wonder, how did the power of vulnerability?
T, come to be, how did you decide on the on that on the content and rehearse it and so on just the the Genesis story I think would be very interesting.
I'm yeah, I love to share because it's been a huge learning for me. So the tedx talk was kind of a combination of an accident and an experiment. The curators of tedx Houston asked me to open their first event and they called and they were really excited. And I asked, I said, sure I'd love to. I was really excited and they have your, for dual is the curator. And I said, what do you want me to talk about?
Out and, you know, when you study things like shame and vulnerability people can get very prescriptive about what they want you to say. And what they don't want you to say, it really has. No bearing actually are what I do say but they like to think in the beginning that they're going to control some of that. And so I said, you know, do you have any thoughts? And his answer was be awesome, have fun. And the day before the, yeah, which is you would think it's liberating, and but it's also kind of terrifying and so, yeah.
In the curse of no constraints. Exactly. Exactly. And so I was on a flight home the night before a long flight with my husband and kids, and I looked at Steve and I was like, I think I'm going to experiment tomorrow.
My husband looked at me and he said, that sounds like a terrible idea and I said, yeah and I said, no, I think I'm going to actually be really vulnerable while I'm talking about vulnerability and he said, you know, again, not sure that's a great idea. So, I went to the Ted event and I experimented, I really kind of put myself out there. I talked about my own breakdown Spiritual. Awakening, I talked about having to go to therapy and how much I
Really hated that kind of thought it was bullshit but like I had to do it and I really put myself out there and I remember driving him and thinking I will never do that again.
I
mean I literally had I literally had what I thought was one of the worst vulnerability hangovers of my career and I was so grateful, you know, I have to tell you to I'm so grateful that there were only 500 people there and that it was recorded at University of Houston where I've taught for 20 years so much
People kind of like, oh yeah, that's Brunei. I don't have any memory of that being recorded.
And I and I'm pretty, I'm pretty sure maybe the universe is aligned and thought, you know, let's not let her know that this is being recorded. So when it came out on the tedx, you know, on the tedx side I was pretty mortified and Steve's, you know, seems like no one's gonna watch it, don't worry. And then several months later, Chris Anderson called and said,
Hey, we're we don't usually put the tedx talks up, but we really love you're talking about after that. And I think the conversation like this, which is an interesting form of leadership. I think I said, no, I'm flattered, but no, thank you. And he said, I think December 23rd will be great. And then that was that. And so it went up on December 23rd and again, Steve was like, don't worry burn a. I don't think that many people are not going to see it. And it went like 1 to 1 million 1 million won, 3 million and ice like oh,
and so, if I look back, so my learning my take away from that experience, was this
If I'm not a little bit nauseous, what I'm done.
I probably did not show up like I should have shown
up.
That's great. That's that's, that's that Echoes advice from. I believe it's Neil Gaiman in the commencement speech make good art. We talked about, you know, when you feel like you're walking down the street naked and extremely uncomfortable, maybe you're starting to get it right. I'm paraphrasing. Of course. But that's a, that's a really good. That's really good point. How did you know? I mean, your delivery was so spot-on. How did you rehearse? Or did you? I mean, maybe you're just
Maybe that is a language that you're naturally fluent and presentation. That is, but how did you prep for it?
I don't rehearse at all. In fact, rehearsing is really. So what I rehearse and the traditional way we think about rehearsing, it's about what I'm going to say and what I'm going to say it and how I'm going to say it. And so if I do that, what ends up happening, I've tried a couple times.
I get so like prefrontal cortex. I get so.
Wrapped up and oh was I supposed to pause here and was I supposed to do this there? That I am not? I'm not connecting. And so for me it is use images as the arc understand what image every image means to me. And what I want to wrap around that image and then require that the house lights are on so I can see people's faces,
that's a good rule. That's a really good rule.
Yeah, so that thing where they're, you know, and I rarely rarely allow any of my presentations to be videotaped. Very, very rarely because one if they're taping you, you have to be super hot under the lights and the audience has to be dark and then it's performance not connection for me. And then, secondly, I don't feel like it's anyone's business. What happens between me and an audience at any given
moment.
And I just really feel like that's, and that's a moment.
And I think that comes, I mean, I'm speculating here, but from a lot of experience teaching, right? Being in. Yeah, in front of students as opposed to viewing yourself as being in front of an audience which which I think enables very different relationship with the people. You're trying to communicate to our communicate with and to provide perhaps a little bit of connective tissue for people who are
Curious about your research, you mentioned vulnerability mentioned shame. How should we Define these terms just for the purposes of this conversation and so people can understand and how did you research
them?
You know, I think the best place to start when we're talking about kind of what words mean? At least the way I use them in my work is to really start with vulnerability because I think if you can get your head and heart wrapped about around vulnerability, the others make a lot more sense. So, to me, I don't know how you were raised and have a listeners were raised, but I was raised to believe that vulnerabilities, we guess that you wake up in the morning, you armor up. You go out into the day, you kick some ass. You don't let people see your
Shins. You mitigate uncertainty and risk as much as you can, and that's the way you live. And so from the very earliest stages of my research know, 13 years ago,
that is not how vulnerability emerged in the data vulnerability emerged as not weakness, but probably our best measure of Courage. So when we ask people, you know what is vulnerability. They would say, things like it's the first date after my divorce. It's trying to get pregnant after my second miscarriage. It's sitting with my wife who has stage four breast cancer and making plans for our three-year-old and five-year-old. It's starting my own business.
Taking my business public, it's getting fired. Its firing someone, it's getting promoted. It's missing the promotion.
And so it came became very clear to me early on that. The simplest definition for vulnerability is really
uncertainty risk and emotional exposure. Vulnerability is about the willingness to show up and be seen when you have zero control over the outcome.
and,
I think.
if you ask people to close their eyes and think about the last time they saw someone doing something truly Brave,
It is very easy to see how vulnerability underpins all acts of courage.
Sure. And yeah, I mean, I just think it's about really
It's about putting yourself out there and which is increasingly difficult to do in this very hyper, critical unforgiving, kind of media culture and so vulnerability is showing up and being seen courage to me, you know, I love the word courage because the root of the word is Kerr, and the Latin for Kerr is heart. And when courage first came into the English language, the original definition was to tell the story of you are, who you are with your whole heart. That was an act of courage.
To me courage is really about choosing, what's right over, what's easy? Practicing your values, not just professing them and choosing to be brave, over being comfortable.
And these AA, I love this type of contextual cut, Prelude. It's not a Prelude but it's defining because I think it's so important for any important.
Conversation and certainly, I think for most conversations to make sure that the people in the conversation are talking about the same thing,
right? It's the key to everything,
right? And that starts with defining very, very end. I've noticed, for instance, even in my own relationship. Something as seemingly clear as honesty, I want you to be honest, say an intimate relationships are actually can can have no pun intended.
Illusion intended. But you have 50 Shades of Grey right over there are it means something very different. You know is is a mission. A lie or are we talking about a misrepresentation of truth, right? And it's it's really critical and I like your description because courage, I remember thinking when you were, when you were walking us through this Custom Auto, who is Mike Tyson's primary trainer? Who, who brought him to?
To the Pinnacle of his success with tell Mike was terrified before going into the ring in the dressing room. So on that you know the hero and the coward feel the same thing. It's how the how, how the hero responds that makes him different. And, you know, the the you can't be courageous. Unless you are exposing yourself to a perceived risk, which by definition makes you vulnerable, even if you're thinking about it and the Very literal kind of physical sense. So,
The, I'd love to segue to to shame because I was reading and one of your alumni Publications and you can correct. This certainly if it's not accurate. But a quote of yours came up that I thought was was really insightful and worth exploring a bit and it's a shame hates to have words wrapped around it. If we talk about it, it loses its grip on us and I was hoping
We maybe we could you could elaborate on that and help us to then understand. Shame.
Yeah and I think that, that quote is so powerful because it's so true. Like I often when I talk about shame I often like to personify it and say you know shame is a very formidable foe. You. No shame is this intensely painful belief or experience that something is wrong with us that we are flawed.
And that we are Unworthy of love and belonging and we all know it. Everyone knows that warm wash that comes over you that makes you feel like you're not enough. We have 50 years of data that really
Show us in my mind, unquestionably that, the only people who don't experience, shame are people who don't have a capacity for connection, who people who don't have a capacity for empathy. So if we are capable of having connection, we no shame because shame is the fear that we're not worthy of connection. And so,
The thing about shame that makes it so difficult, is it needs three things to thrive in our lives. If you take a petri dish and you put shame in a Petri dish and you douse it with secrecy silence and judgment, it grows exponentially, it will, it will grow into every corner and crevice of Our Lives.
If you have the same amount of shame in a Petri dish, and you douse it with empathy, shame can't survive, empathy. Empathy is a very hostile environment for shame and so to understand shame, I think what resonates mostly with people are the two kind of tapes that shame drives the first is you're not enough and you can fill in the blank, you're not thin enough. Pretty enough, strong enough, powerful enough Rich enough promote it enough. Loved enough. Awesome enough. You know you're not an
And then if we can, somehow get a handle on that and say, you know, like, okay, I've got, you know, I have this big presentation and you've got the shame Gremlin and you're either saying, you're not enough, you're not smart enough, they're going to be like a hundred mbas in that room. What do you know about business? You're not enough. If you can rustle that thing down, the other tape that shame drives is, who Do You Think You Are?
So it creates this amazing vise.
That our self-worth gets caught in and just squeezes us from both sides. And so shame and shame is really visceral. I mean, if you if you just say the word to people, people can feel
it.
No, definitely. And you mentioned you to the fear of disconnection. I mean, I wrote down when I was doing some research before this calling of being shunned question mark, and I'd love to ask you because I question that came from, some of my listeners was what is the evolutionary need of shame or or a, why did that develop in human beings? And it seems to be like shame cancer.
A useful purpose, right? If you are ashamed, of the fact that you think about molesting a child, that seemed that serves a societal function, right? So I would argue that you would argue. No,
I would argue now. Absolutely not. Okay. All
right. Well, I'd love for you to expand on that because I that's that's, that's an interesting Viewpoint. So could you, could you expand on that?
So
shame. I think if you look at shame from an evolutionary biological perspective, I think it did absolutely serve a function. So Tim you lead the dinosaur back to the cave, it eats my entire family and my whole clan. This is the second time you've done that. So we are literally going to shun you from our Collective, which means you'll be alone, which means death, right? And so because you're dangerous,
Just not not unlike if we see, even in the animal world today, some pack animals, if there's a sick animal, among them will literally, you know, approach it as a group and back it off a cliff for the sake of the pack, right? So so that makes sense. As we've evolved as we've evolved neurobiologically, as we've evolved. Shame becomes a very profoundly dangerous to
Tool for people who have the emotional understanding that we have. So, now what we see is, you can change a behavior sometimes, especially with children on a dime with shame, but it's like hitting a thumbtack with a 500 pound Anvil. You are going to crush that Thumbtack in the process of doing that. So what we see now is we see shame, highly, highly correlated,
With addiction depression aggression violence suicide Eating Disorders. Very highly correlated.
What we see as the inverse is. We see Guilt.
And shame and guilt are very different. Shame has, I am a bad person. Guilt is I did something bad. So you go out on Thursday night, you get wasted. You're so hung over on Friday. You sleep through your alarm clock. You miss a really important meeting. You get to work late on Friday and your self-talk, is Jesus. I'm a loser. I'm an idiot. I'm such a loser that shame
If you get to work on Friday, same scenario and your self-talk is dude, I cannot believe I did that. That was such a lame thing to do. That was such a stupid thing to do. The difference is shame, is a focus on Cell. Guilt is a focus on Behavior, people who are very guilt Pro, who say, you know what, I got a bad grade, I'm not a loser but that was a loser idea to not study and go out last night.
They have their relationship with addiction depression violence. Suicide bullying is inverse meaning the higher the level of guilt. The less likely it is to experience these outcomes. So the most dangerous, if you look at shame and guilt and a criminal population, the most dangerous people have the highest levels of Shame prone.
And the lowest levels of guilt proneness. That means because guilt is holding a person. Does that make sense? It makes perfect sense. Yeah, so guilt is holding up. Something we've done against who we want to be our something we've done thought about doing our failed to do up against our values, who we want to be what we think is. Right. And guilt is the psychological discomfort created by the cognitive dissonance between our behavior and who we want to be.
And it's healthy and adaptive
it makes perfect sense. I was having a conversation with Josh waitzkin who's been on this podcast as well. He was the basis for Searching for Bobby Fischer, so he was known as a chess Prodigy. As a child, he is a tremendous dad. Really amazing parent has a young boy and he has a very particular parenting style and he always focuses on rewarding effort and not labeling his son smart. So for instance,
Since he'll say that was a really good job. You worked really hard. You did a b and c that resulted in D as opposed to. Wow, you got a great grade. You're so smart because then when the kid gets a bad grade, it's viewed as this, this unsolvable unfixable, personal failing and it seems to correlate to the difference between shame. IE, I am flawed. I'm a broken toy that cannot be fixed versus guilt. Like, wow, I really fucked that up bad.
Me, but next time I'll do something different.
Usually different here. And the other thing is think about this, a sixteen-year-old, a ten-year-old, you know, they get caught being dishonest with me and I say, you know what, you're a liar. And you're grounded when you tell somebody they're a liar,
That's a self-fulfilling prophecy. What if you're? If you're a liar, if I'm a vibrant, a brown, I'm a liar. What option is there for growth or change?
Well, I don't know. I am,
right? Not only that. But what incentive is there? Not to lie if you're branded as such. Right.
So when you talk about, the person who is thinking about committing violence or assault on a child, do I want that person to be more ashamed? No, because I have a feeling. I mean, there's, there's, you know, in your example, I guess there's pedophilia, which can be an organic real issue, but the majority of what we see are people who are so deeply, shamed base.
Committing horrific crimes. So look if I thought shaming people, no matter how. I mean, I hate to say this, but I'll just be honest, if I thought shaming people no matter how
Hurtful and painful it is. If I thought that kept people safer, I'd be all for it. It just doesn't
right. Right. Well, it's, you know, it's interesting because I've been training a rescue pup for the last few weeks. Brand-new rescue pup and she was at a kill shelter in South Carolina and suffered a lot of views, but really got into looking at mammalian training and looking at everything from dolphin training to Polar Bear training, the dog training, and the fact of the matter is
As you know, negative reinforcement or punishment Based training doesn't work that well or at least at the very best it's very slow compared to a lot of the positive reinforcement Based training. You know whether it's using clickers for conditioning and so on because you can only reinforce a behavior that that has that has. That is occurred, right? And when you think that the ashamed,
Seems to tie to me in an interesting way to not understanding what is malleable and what is not. And I'd love to yeah come back to the. I am enough because in your book one of your several books but the gift of imperfection, one of the best book titles of all time by the way. So well done on that has been described as the lifelong journey from what will people think to I am enough now.
What? I'm so curious to hear about nothing. Then I'll leap forward to daring greatly and I'll just read this this quote from which I believe that the title was was adapted. So, this is Theodore Roosevelt, there's not the critic, who counts, not the man who points out how strong, how the strong man stumbles, or where, the doer of Deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood who strives valiantly, who at the best knows in the end of
Triumph of high achievement and who at worst. If he fails at least fails, while daring greatly. Now, what I have had as an internal conflict for a very long time and this was brought to the surface, most noticeably the last year-and-a-half through meditation. So I practice Transcendental Meditation in the mornings and have friends, who practice, vipassana transcendental, different types of meditation and these are type A driven.
A competitive people and we've I've had the conversation repeatedly, the same conversation with different people about whether that removes a Competitive Edge, and the reason being that you decide, I am enough your content. Therefore, you do not have discontent driving you to achieve big things that are for most of us pretty high on Maslow's hierarchy of needs its rights. Like we have shelter, we have food
So in reality, like in almost every capacity, we have enough. We are enough. So how do you balance the the well-being of having a mindset of, I am enough versus the at least with a lot of my peers and friends in Silicon Valley. The kind of discontent that seems to drive. So many of those people to accomplish great things.
So I would go back to your really important Insight from the beginning of our conversation about defining terms. I'd also go back to kind of the insights that you're learning from doing your training with your rescue pup which is does to me, I am enough.
I mean I'm a competitive type a person to which probably doesn't come as a surprise the oldest of four. You know, very ambitious. And you know, I'm that person to in many ways
I think the soul are the center of my ability to keep putting myself out there and try new things even when I fail and I have had some big failures. I think the soul of my healthy competitiveness and my ambition is the belief that I am
enough.
Because I'm starting. And I think, when I don't believe I'm enough, I engage in behaviors, not to push myself, not to grow and stretch, and learn, not to strive for excellence, but to prove, to other people what I can do. But when I start from a place that, you know what, I'm enough I'm in perfect, I'm afraid.
I'm you know super vulnerable but that does not change the fact that I'm also Brave and worthy of love and belonging and when I start from that place, I am completely Unleashed. So
I think one of the things that's really important to help kind of Define here because I'm not like you know on the couch to binge watching TV, five days a week writing nasty ass comments on other people's accomplishments on you know, Twitter and Facebook and saying, look, fuck you, I'm enough. Like that's not what I'm talking about, you know, right. I'm talking about
a belief of self-worth that
I am enough not based on what I do, what I accomplished, what do I, you know, prove or produce. I am just enough and if you start from that, that's the healthy Center. I think of most
Most of the most awesome achievements we've seen and I spent a lot of time in Silicon Valley to and what I can tell you and I know I would bet. I wish we could have a bet right now, I would bet you a lot of money that if we listed the names of 10 people which were not going to do, you could tell me which of those folks are operating and Tenten, competitive ambitious, just like crazy Fighters out there in the arena, and we listed two names.
You could tell me the five who are motivated from a place of being enough, but wanting to strive for excellence and learning and the five who are trying to fill a hole and their self worth and who are dangerous.
Yeah, no for sure. And I think, I guess the, in my mind when I think I'm just imagining this list of 10 people in my head when I imagine the people who fall into the less self-destructive category
Who have were operating from a place of? I am enough, I guess I would in their cases.
Say that / in the if I could hear their sort of subconscious internal Mantra it would in my mind, it would seem to be and maybe this is the same thing, but closer to I am I'm good or I'm really good, but I can be better. Not, I am flawed, I need to impress everyone around me to make them validate me but
The, I guess I'm just struggling with the word enough, but I understand the, the point of it, and I think it's, this is something that I struggle with, right? I mean, I'm the extremely personally, I'm very hard on myself. I may not have always, sort of, been of the mindset that, you know, second place is first loser and extremely competitive and that is not always been the healthiest thing for me in all sorts of different capacities.
But I don't the let's let's sort of tackle this from a slightly different angle so the the daring greatly the question that I think is raised in that that book among others is have you dared greatly today and please feel free to take this in any direction because you obviously know more about your work that I do. But how what is a good way to evaluate that? And do you ask yourself this type of question on a daily?
Bassist you have. I'll leave it at that. I could I could make this a 12-part question. But how does someone terman if they have dared greatly? And is how often would you suggest someone kind of check in and ask themselves that?
So I think for me daring greatly and you know, that quote from Theodore Roosevelt I even got teary-eyed while you were reading it. You know, it was a life changer for me, it was right after the tedx Houston, talk of gone viral, I was kind of everywhere on the internet at that time. And you know, everyone for ABC, CBS NBC Fox have been imposed for all writing about this. Who is this person at the University of Houston? With this Ted Talk going viral and as you can imagine and all these on
Line stories had online comments that were, of course, like yeah. And so my husband and my therapist were like, don't read the comments and so I read all the comments one day. And yeah, I really sat down and destroyed them for like an hour. And I think, you know, if you ask if you're listening to thank you, dear listener right now, you know, if you close your eyes and think about
We all have the same triggers we all have two or three things we have. Most of us have more that you could overhear somebody over here, someone saying about you. That would be so painful and so hurtful that you don't know if you could survive it, most of us have those things. And so for me up until that point, you know, I do those things really dictated my life. I was like look I'm going to engineer this career to kind of be small and safe. I'm going to play right under the radar.
Because I am not willing to put myself out there and get criticized, like I know is happening. And so the problem with staying small is, it's always served up with resentment and pissed off at us because we're not using our gifts, we're not in our power and there's always a price for that, right? And so to me when I read that quote, you know, when I looked at the comments, they were things like, of course. She, you know, of course, she Embraces imperfection, what choice, would you have if you look like her?
I feel sorry for her husband and kids more, Botox less research, you need to shake lose 10 pounds. Before you talk about being worthy, I mean, just like really shitty hurtful stuff and then I came on. I Came Upon that. I mean, like the next 30 minutes after we know that I Came Upon that comment, I mean, that quote from Theodore Roosevelt and you know, in that moment, what I realized is, you know, what, I do want to live a brave life, I do want to live in the arena.
And if you're going to live in the arena, the only guarantee is, you will get your ass kicked. And the second thing is that daring greatly is being vulnerable. So, when you ask yourself, did I dare greatly today? The big question I ask is, did I, when I had the opportunity, did I choose courage over comfort.
You know, when things went sideways between Steve and I this morning over, you know, who is going to pack a lunch for my son. Did I just go into the old pattern of rolling my eyes and walk out of the kitchen? Or did I choose courage and say I'm sorry I'm feeling really overwhelmed with the book launch tomorrow and I'm sorry I really apologize. That was hurtful to. I choose courage or dad. She's comfort. And so to me that's the question we asked about daring greatly.
and I think, you know, I think one of the things that you said term, really, when you're talking about your friends and this idea being enough, one of the things that
Really turned my life upside down. There were four or five things in the research that had taken me a long time to get over and get through. And one of them, was the difference between healthy striving or striving for excellence and perfectionism. And
I've always been perfectionistic about my staff and what I learned in the research was that perfectionism is very outwardly defined. It's dictated by what will people think and healthy striving is dictated are striving for excellence, is internally motivated and so perfectionism is really I called the 20-ton shield and I think a lot of them were talking about those 10 people five of whom work from this place of wholeness and the other I think what a lot of times we're talking about is the difference between
When perfectionism and striving for excellence and I think perfectionism is this 20-ton Shield that we carry around and it's a defense mechanism classically. That just says, if I live perfect, love, perfect, work, perfect. And accomplish perfectly. I can reduce or minimize shame blame criticism and judgment. And so we carry this thing around thinking, it's protecting us. But what it's really doing is keeping us from being seen,
and and so, I think when I ask myself personally have I dared greatly today
sometimes, for me, it is the question of
was I enough or am I trying to get everything perfect, so that I can somehow think on mitigating criticism and
judgment, right? Well, I also find and I haven't really thought about it in these terms before, but if you look at say think it's Barry Schwartz. Paradox of choice where he talks about maximizers and I think it's satisficers. But if I try to correlate
That to my own experience being I think very much a perfectionist and that of my friends, the people who are perfectionists very often are so future-focused. That the Perfection once achieved is viewed as the trigger that will sort of solve their guilt. Shame disconnect is that yeah. Where's the people who are striving for?
For excellence, Excellence are better at celebrating, the little wins, accepting the small defeats and sometimes the large defeats and tend to be a bit more present State focused. And you mentioned, you know, vulnerability and you and the sort of components, right? So you facing whether it's an uncertainty risk and so on. And I've seen it described elsewhere as, you know, stopping controlling and predicting the
It seems very much akin to certain tenets and say stoic philosophy of which I read a lot, whether it's Park is really interesting and then there are a lot of common threads in Buddhism of course that would talk about how how fruitless it is and futile. It is to try to eliminate suffering completely because the the we are almost by definition experiencers of
Ring, right? And coming to terms with that, what's which? Which thinkers philosophers or schools of thinking or philosophy? Most resonate with the insights you found in in the data and your
research?
Oh my God, e. All of the above. Like, I mean it took me. It took me from Marcus Aurelius to liberation theology
of liberation theology
at. It's a Catholic kind of a Catholic theology of social justice and that has its had its stronghold in beginning and Central America. But I mean, I think it is just one of the things about being a grounded Theory, researcher that I love. And hate is we don't start with an existing.
Arie and then go try to prove or disprove it. We build a theory from peoples lived experiences and then we do the literature review and see where it fits and where it doesn't fit. Because the idea between behind grounded theory is if you start with a an existing Theory you're just kind of paying homage to
They would say the theoretical capitalist that came before you and that it's peoples, lived experiences that really matter. And so people often comment in my book store, like how is it that you're quoting? I do quote Marcus Aurelius, I think in one of my books, how are you quoting him? And then how are you quoting Pema chodron, who's an American Buddhist nun? And then you're quoting Disney, add it in a Pixar movie from Toy Story and to me I have no Division and very little tolerance for like
Highbrow versus lowbrow inspiration. I think if you're paying attention you can find truth and inspiration anywhere and everywhere. And so to me I'm all over the place in the literature and I think the people who really depend on polarity will hate this but really some very strong common themes across Christianity, Buddhism Judaism, you know, Islam Joseph.
Campbell, I mean, I think
I end up finding myself.
In some just profound truths from a lot of, I mean, I was reading something yesterday in the data and it made me pull out my book by cabron. So I think it's
Rumi Marriott, Mary. Oliver Neil, Peart.
The drummer for Rush like I was as something came up and I was like yeah I was like I didn't know if you knew so I had to put it in there but I was like this is when you shoot when you shoot, when you don't make a choice when you choose, not to decide. You still have made a choice.
And I think I don't know that anyone says it more eloquently than rush. You know, I don't know what to say.
Neil, yeah. Just as a side note, if people want to see just a beast of a drummer then you can you can search on YouTube for some videos of this guy. Oh my goodness. What a just monster on the kit but
an appellate, you know. So I find my inspiration kind of everywhere. And
let's, let's talk about misinterpretations of vulnerability for a second and I think maybe I'm
A little. I'm probably projecting my own prejudices here. But is it vulnerability there? I think there are some people who misinterpret being vulnerable and the benefits derived from being vulnerable with incessant oversharing of emotions or inner dialogue, or doubt. What would you say to those? What would you say to those people?
Well, maybe my diagnosis is off off base but there's some there are a lot of people who just kind of pour out every concern, worry fault mistake and and okay, it with the, the label of vulnerability. So I just love to hear your thoughts on that words out that I just dropped on you.
I'm tracking 100% because I get it's there's a very simple formula in my head vulnerability - boundaries is not vulnerability. It can be desperation, it can be over sharing, it can be manipulation, it can be a lot of different things but it's not vulnerability. We always have to hold awareness of boundaries and roles in our minds around vulnerability. We share with people who've earned the right to hear our story and we stay mindful all the time of the rule. We're at
and so one of the great examples I can give you is, I'm with 50 CEOs, from Silicon Valley and we spent a long weekend together and toward the end of maybe the first day, one of them says,
I came here thinking that I would never, you know, believe in vulnerability are accepted that. I am a hundred percent on board so I want to make sure I understand that I should stand up in front of, you know, my investors my VCS and you know and say look I am in over my head we are bleeding money and I do not know what to do next.
Right. And I said, you know, only if you don't want another round of funding, should you do that? I mean, no, that's that's super and that's not appropriate but let me, you know, let me ask you this.
If you had, you know, if you had, I don't know, fifty thousand dollars invested with this leader. Wouldn't you be praying to God? That he's sitting across from someone saying that? Sure, definitely hundred right, right? I don't care if it's whether it's his therapist, a mentor and adviser because what the what the alternative is
If he's really drowning in over his head and bleeding money and doesn't know what he's doing is to just keep grinding harder and harder on the same things he's doing.
And not ask for
help, right? Right. Totally
agreed. Yeah. And so when people say you know, live-tweeting your bikini wax, that is not vulnerability,
sorry about that. It was only once.
Yeah, I mean, it's so if you could hold back a little bit to him, we'd really appreciate it. No are sharing intimate details of your children's reaction to your impending. Divorce on Facebook. That is not vulnerability. Vulnerability is the birthplace
Of intimacy, trust connection, creativity and Innovation for leaders. It's the birthplace of trusted influence but it's not permission to overshare.
Right. Right. Well, I mean d, I thought the investor example is great because the if a CEO or founder gets up and says it provides, the confession that you give as an example in front of a room that will almost inevitably
The bleh respond by say yanking funding. It's not a it's not a constructive use of that confession, if that makes sense. And it's I live in San Francisco most of the time and it's it's this this sort of a disc this misinterpretation of vulnerability as oversharing, is very common among the kind of Burning Man, spiritual atheist.
Tests sect and it's I think it's massively problematic. I think it creates its it appears to create many more problems than it solves and let me use that as a segue. So the, the opposite I was interviewing a well-known strength coach named Pavel, Tatsu Lon. He's originally from, I think the runt the Ukraine in any case, former Soviet Union and one of the questions I asked him on the podcast was
What in your book? What do you write in your personal Journal that you don't often talk about with other people? And his answer was, well, Tim. That is very personal question and he proceeded to tell me and he proceeded to tell me that, you know, oversharing is a big problem in the United States and I was like, well, you know, that's actually, I feel like that's a fair response. And so I wanted to ask you a question that's based on input from a number of listeners of this.
Podcast and the here's the lead and I'd be very curious to hear your thoughts. So there's lots of chatter about over feminization of boys. How do you how do you, how do you have vulnerability coexist with strong? Masculine virtues / traits and I'm paraphrasing here and I'll just give another sort of contextual
Ball that Marin it may or may not be interesting to comment on. So there's an expression in some military training that is suffer in silence. And the idea is, If You're Going Through Hell Week for the Navy, SEALS or something like that, and you're carrying logs around and laying down in the freezing. Cold water climbing under barbed wire doing all these just nausea and fear-inducing things if you complain like my foot.
Hertz this that and the other thing, it will trigger more suffering in the people around you which I happen to agree with in that context. So that's a lot at once. But but what is your thinking on the the the so-called sort of over feminization of boys and masculine virtues slashed rates versus vulnerability? I mean how do they coexist
And maybe that's not even the right question.
It's a really good question. And I, you know, I work a lot with special forces and with the military and and was
that may I add one more thing just? Yeah, just so that I'm not. I people don't think I'm representing only the male side of this. Yeah, a lot of my female friends complain to me that in a lot of urban centers in the u.s. San Francisco Etc. They can only find guys today.
It and they're looking for men to date. So it's not just, this is, this is a concern not just from the male side. It seems to be coming from both sides, so sorry to interrupt but I just wanted to throw
this. I think it's really important. So I have so much to say on it, that I'm overwhelmed. I don't even know where to start. So I'm going to just try to, I am, I'm just, like, busting a gut over here. Okay. So
These binaries of, you know, tough and tender, masculine feminine, you know.
I think we have to be really careful about this because if we, when we start to talk about vulnerable to talk about in the context of my work, you got me, really? I'm like, okay if you talk about vulnerability,
And vulnerability to me is courage. And so when I, when I hear women talk about their inability to be with the vulnerable, man, it's it makes tons of sense to me because, you know, you know, I wish I could say, you know, at the Ember one perpetrator of Shame. With men, we're all those, you know, shitty dad's and terrible coaches, and those buddies, but the number one perpetrator of Shame with men is women. And so, I often
A show me a woman who can sit with a man in real fear and vulnerability. I will show you a woman who's done her own work around. Vulnerability and doesn't derive her power or status from that, man. You show me a man who can sit with a woman who's in real fear and vulnerability. And I'll show you a man who's done his own work around vulnerability and doesn't derive his
Power from being Oz, the all knowing and all fixing because what men have a tendency to do when we're feeling vulnerable are afraid, is try to fix it because it's how we are socialized. And so, I don't think when you talk about how we're raising boys today,
Here's what I can tell you from a hundred fifty thousand pieces of data. Looking back, from what I've learned from Men,
The Men Who were raised to be open and feeling and tender and loving and given no skills. And no information on how to navigate boy culture, and male culture do not do
well, right,
the boys who were raised,
On how to navigate male culture, King of the Hill and had no tools on how to be open and vulnerable and emotionally available.
Do worse, but they also don't do well. So it's about, we need to stop with these fall separations between tough and tender. You know, tough and tender can co-exist. And to me, that's kind of this, that's kind of the equation for badassery. And it can also exist in women, like,
You know, grit and Grace, tough, and tender, afraid and brave. You know, this idea that were either courageous or chicken shit is just not true because most of us are afraid and brave at the exact same moment all day long.
And so to take courage and vulnerability to take two to, not teach that to our kids boys or girls.
Is not teaching them how to be emotionally available or Tender either, right? And so, I think what concerns me is about the need to drive a stake through the middle of these things.
And I think that's what's really important. I mean to be both.
Yeah, no, I and I agree with you. I mean, I think that they're not mutually exclusive. There's no need for a false dichotomy. It's I think a lot of it comes back to sort of choosing the appropriate environment for expressing that vulnerability if that makes sense. It's it's a toughie it seems it seems tough. I mean I because you find men who have the armor plating on
You can never take it off that for what it's worth. The guys I've met who are operating at the highest level in say, Special Forces do not have that problem. They are, they tend not to suffer from a lot of PTSD. For instance, and they are very empathetic and emotionally a tune for the, at least in the subset of folks that I've met. But they've, they've been subjected to just insane amounts of abuse and conditioning too.
Two for mental and physical toughness, but at the same time, I see them playing with their kids, or with their wives, and they're extremely present. So, that's but that's, it's a tough needle to thread as it's a compliment. So speaking of just the challenges that people have with say vulnerability, what are some daily practices or exercises that people can can test to help them develop more vulnerability, less
Etc.
You know, I think it's interesting that you talk about, you know, daily practices because I think vulnerability is a daily practice and for a lot of us, you know, at least for me when it when it was new, it was about trying on new ways of being and kind of testing it out. One of the things that emerge from the data is this this idea of trust and the relationship between trust and vulnerability. And people always ask me, you gain trust first and then You're vulnerable with people.
But the truth is, you can't really earn trust over time with people without being somewhat vulnerable. So it's a little bit of a back-and-forth. It's a little bit of sharing things that are maybe not super deeply personal but are meaningful to you and seeing how that feels to share them and be open. One thing that you said that I've never thought about it until this interview but it was such a remarkable Insight from you that I
To go back to when you talk about daily practice.
Is when you were talking about perfectionism being future-focused and also kind of presenting some struggles about staying in the now. I think that's why. And again, and I'm just putting this Insight together your Insight. I think that's why a lot of people who are that super uber competitive High, strong overachieving, don't get the same results in their personal lives with their partners and their children. As they
You and their professional kind of Endeavors or their recreational Endeavors because our personal relationships with the people, we love those Intimate Relationships, require a presence, a focus on now that a lot of times, professional success does not depend on that as
much very true. Yeah, very true.
You can fly fast and if you know, if you're in a little Cessna two-seater, you gotta, you know, you're in the here.
Here and now, and you got to pay attention to every bump and every gauge and pay, you know, but if you're in a jet you can't afford to be thinking about. Now, you have to be thinking about five minutes from now. And so I thought it was a really remarkable and set on your part because when I do think about those 10 friends and Silicon Valley, I think about my own life. Even I think what the research has changed most is that I think it has had a huge impact on my professional.
Success. But more than anything. When I get home, I walk into a marriage and her relationship with kids. That is fun. They're fundamentally different than they were before. I became okay with vulnerability and okay, with less than
perfect.
What is the first 60 to 90 days of 60? 90 days, 60, to 90 minutes of your day, look like your morning routines or rituals outside of book launch times and things like that. Let's just assume that you have control of your your optimal day. But it, what is the first? What are your morning rituals? Look like, what is your first 60 to 90 minutes look like,
I wake up. What time do you wake up? At 6:30 Ashish? I wake up. I
I do a lot of deep breathing to Stave off an absolute desperate need for a hit of data from my phone or my computer. So I try very hard not to check email or text because I don't, I sleep with my phone downstairs and sleep with any kind of computer next to me. And then, you know, it's really super normal. I wake up, kids, I make breakfast. I pack lunches, I go through the calendar with the day. I zip-up backpacks. I drive carpool.
All I usually go from car pool to swim. I'm a swimmer X competitive swimmer. So I like to swim and I swim in walk and swimming is kind of the trifecta for me. It's meditation, exercise and therapy and then I usually start my day, my work day
and what time, what time, what time do you finish swimming? And how long is this one
session?
If I rent my best case scenarios, I run and swim and so I don't swim fast enough anymore. I don't swim taught time so many more like, you know, 50s on every 20 or anything like I used to. So it's more. It's not as cardio's that used to be. So I like to run on the treadmill for 30 minutes and then I like to swim for half an hour, got it. And if I was a bike rider I could be a triathlete. But the bag that I tried it once and the bike going that fast next to that. Many people going that fast is really
But for me,
he had imagined it.
So I'm gonna do a plate load. Your
what, what book besides your own? Have you gifted to other people? Most, but we're what book do you have you often given as a gift?
Oh, man, I had given so many copies of The
Alchemist.
The people that I should get a little royalty on it.
That's a great book. That's a great book. Speaking of books. So you have a new book out Rising strong and it seems to me like this,
Completes a Trilogy in a sense. It seems like the three books go together very well, but could you give people a description of the latest book? And why you wrote it?
Yeah, sure. I think they do go together and I wasn't intentional on that but I think the gifts is be you daring greatly is be all in and this book is get your ass kicked. Get up and do it again. This is about
Just the physics of vulnerability. You know, if you're brave enough often enough, you're going to fall, you're going to experience, heartbreak, disappointment, failure, it's going to happen. And so going into this research, the question for me was what do men and women who experience Falls and get back up and are even more courageous and more. Tenacious what do they have in common? So rise in strong is about the process that emerged from that
question. And can you describe your
Search method. How do you find your interviewees? What is the sort of interview format look like, what do you do with the data afterwards, Etc,
about 70% of my interviews or individuals and more focus groups in the last data set. And so some of them likes for example, I went to West Point and sat down with I think there were six officers who had all come back from active you know, combat.
T. So sometimes I'll do focus groups and but the majority of them are individuals, a lot of it is snowball. Sampling, meaning. I've interviewed you Tim and I'm like, you know what I mean? This is really helpful. I would love to interview some of the folks that, you know, in Silicon Valley around perfectionism. Would you mind doing a warm introduction? Right? And some of them are just kind of calls like this. This book is a lot about the power of story and the stories we tell ourselves. So I interview Shonda. Rhimes the
Runner for Scandal and and so. So some of them are just you know it's a lot easier to get people. Now that it was when I first started and I was like hi my name is Renee and I would like to talk to you about shame but now it's more that, you know, I can now I just do mostly individual and focus groups and so then I get the data, I don't record it, I take what we call and the field.
Vehicle field notes. So, I capture exact phrases and sentences during our interview. I let participants look at them if they want to, when they're done some, say yes, some say no. And then I code what I've learned against what. I already know her patterns and saturation in the data. Meaning, if I am trying to study perfectionism and entrepreneurs in Silicon Valley, I'll start interviewing them and I'll know that I've reached saturation. When I can predict. What the next person is going to say.
Because one of the really tough rules of grounded, Theory. Research are, we don't allow for any outliers and so if I'm almost done and then I sit down with you and you say something and does it fit with the theory that I'm developing in my head about what's happening? Then I have to go back to the drawing board and keep interviewing because every lived experience is real and
matters.
Right? So it would be like interviewing a hundred people in Silicon Valley are saying they're trying to democratize Pizza, ordering democratize, kitty litter delivery democratize this and then someone said, I'm really looking to establish a silo of command and control like a North Korean dictator for x and you be like, all right, well then I have to keep going
and then I have to question what I'm hearing. I have to question what I'm hearing.
From the kitty litter and the other folks, right? And I have to figure out what, what do y'all meaning, what are the on, meaningfully, say, income have in
common and it seems to me Rising strong is it's a must-have. Not a nice to have, right? And I'm not saying that the be yourself, dare, greatly are nice to haves, but if you don't have the resilience to recover from mistakes,
You're never going to dare greatly in the first place in some respect. It would seem, right? So if you, if would you recommend what order would you recommend? People read your books in. I mean understanding that this is the latest, of course, but what sort of the ideal sequence
Yeah, I think you know they go together but they don't me I think they can each be read independently. So I think sometimes it's helpful to pick up the book based on where you are. When if you're really struggling with the hustle with hustling for Perfection and hustling, improving and perfecting and pretending, I think the gifts is great if you really are, you know, like the rest of us, sick and tired of being afraid and you want to be brave and you want to feel like what does that look like? I think daring greatly is a is this place to start and if you find yourself face down in the arena and you're thinking
God, I just got my ass handed to me, I think, I think strong would be a good place to start. It probably makes sense, you know, there's a sequence. So I think if you're just like Mom
I'm interested, I would start with your in great. I mean the gifts but I think I also think for your audience it's probably helpful to know that I've spent the last couple of years probably exclusively working with leaders and entrepreneurs so daring greatly and Rising strong have much more of my research from organizations and from leaders than the gift does
got it. No, that is helpful. Just a few more questions and then I sure coming up on time. So I was just a couple of rapid-fire questions, but the answers don't have to be
And I'm very curious about this one, when you think of the word successful, who is the first person who comes to mind for you. And why
You know, what's so weird? I don't picture anybody. I picture the word redefine that is such a that has been such a dangerous word and my research, the word successful, our success. I agree that I don't even use it anymore because what does that mean? Like okay, so I am the CEO of this company. I make a shit ton of money. This is my title. This is the influence and
Our. I have, I'm on my fourth marriage and no relationship with my adult children, right? So, I think, what I heard the word successful, my answer is be clear, that, your ladder is leaning against the right building,
right? Yeah, bad word, next question.
Yeah, I don't know why I had a strong
word. No, no, I agree with you. I think happiness is actually similar in.
Oh
yes. This that's a scary nebulous dangerous term as well.
What $100 or less purchase has most positively impacted your life in recent memory.
Oh, Triathlon goggles, because I don't know. For some reason, they're softer, so that I don't have goggle marks all day. Oh, really? I had no
idea what would do, you know, the brand of goggles off
hand? Yeah. But they're like the most famous Triathlon, but, and they're really Patty and you look like we all like swam with the speedo vanquisher like little goggles for that much for a badass and the bigger your goggle, the goofier you were, but now it's time for the goofy goggle for me.
Yeah, I really like the Aqua Sphere
Caiman goggles Ka IMA n and Laird Hamilton is as big wave surfer. Yeah uses. I will look them up goggles. I just put them for those people interested to put them in my latest, five, bullet, Friday. You can just search my name and Bible of Fridays, but yeah, it does seem like the bigger goggles coming back. If you could have one billboard anywhere with anything on it, what would it say in? Where would you put it?
I would put it in Washington DC.
and it would say,
Shut up and listen,
that's great. That's great. That that could be put anywhere. I would love to put that on on the on the highway you know, Highway 101 and 280 in Silicon Valley to because man, oh man, are people talking a lot? These days and pitching pitching really hard. Without asking many good
questions. You know what? I wouldn't say shut up because my kids would be like, oh, my God, were not even allowed to say that word. So I would say talk less, listen more but I
In my heart. I was saying
shut up. Yeah, we could split test. It could be that. Good. That could be the hashtag. Yeah. Just shut your face. What advice would you give your 30 year? Old
self?
It's okay to be afraid. You don't have to be so scary when you're scared,
huh?
Meaning what put on put on Airs of confidence and
overcome. Yes, yes. Like the 30s are so exhausting. It's like the Asia. Yeah, it is at the age of perfecting proving pretending and there's some Liberation that can you know, for me that came in my for, there's a breakdown, of course but followed by some Liberation that came in my 40s. So I would just say, you know,
You know, stop hustling,
right? Yeah, the mentioned the breakdown, the the Breakthrough disguises break down.
What would you say to your 30 year? Old self,
start meditating and chill the fuck out, that's it.
You don't need to. You don't need to have a resting pulse of a hundred and fifty beats per minute to get a lot of big things done. They're
similar messages, right?
Yeah, very similar. I think that well, I think it's very easy for people and I'm sure I still do this. But to mistake the symptoms of success with the things that cause success, they're not the same, right?
Do you have any ask or request for all the people listening? Of course I would highly recommend that they check out your work including Rising strong. The latest book which I will link to in the show notes for everybody but any other ask request or recommendation for everybody listening.
I would just say keep being part of the conversation, about these tougher about these tougher topics about vulnerability about, Shame about being brave, just
Lean into some discomfort because I think these, what's the seemingly impossible problems that we have around race and homophobia and the environment and just the lack of Love. Sometimes are not going to be solved in a comfortable way. We can't, we've got it, you know, you have to choose Comfort or courage, you just can't have both. So I guess my ask would be more of a big metaphysical, ask that.
Um, give vulnerability a shot, you know, and give discomfort its do. Because I think there is a really strong relationship between
Your willingness, he or she who's willing to be the most uncomfortable is not only the bravest but Rises the fastest,
totally agree. Well I think the, the only the only way to ensure long-term Comfort is to have continual short-term discomfort. Well, this has been a blast burn a, where can people say hello to you online? Where can they find out more about you? Find you on the, the social networks?
Yeah, I am at a gnat brene, Brown on Twitter and Instagram and brene Brown on Facebook. We just launched a new project that we're excited about called courage Works, which is bringing all of my teachings to online for individuals and leaders and organizations. And that's just courage works.com. And so, I'm a time in all those places.
Well, I enjoy your work, I
Shit your work. And thank you so much for taking time folks. Listening you can find links to everything that we discussed show notes, Etc, at 4-Hour workweek.com and just click on podcast. All spelled out for our work week.com and please say hello to Brunei on the interwebs and join the conversation. I'll also have a question of the day in the blog post that you guys can continue this conversation as brene suggested but Renee. Thank you so much for making the
time.
It was awesome. Thank you so much, Tim. I appreciate it.
And everybody listening as always, thank you for listening and until next day, till next day, until next time. Tim needs more caffeine. Put a Vida and face your discomfort. Practice is Comfort. Thanks for listening.
