I'm Oprah Winfrey, welcome to Super Soul conversations, the podcast. I believe that one of the most valuable gifts you can give yourself is time taking time to be more fully present your journey to become more inspired and connected to the deeper world around us starts right now. Welcome to part two of our conversation.
So this is what I love. I mean, I think it on the back of the
book,
Atlas of the heart, Brown takes us on a journey through 87 of the emotions and experiences that defined what it means to be human, as she Maps the necessary skills and an actionable framework for meaningful connection. She gives us the language and tools to access a universe of new choices and Second Chances a universe where we can share.
Here and Steward the stories of our bravest. And most heartbreaking moments with one another, in a way that builds connection. And what is it? You are hoping that people will then be able to do with those Second
Chances? Yeah, the whole book I've been thinking about this a lot. So I think of the book as kind of a Trilogy I think of it as in the beginning it's the case. It's a little bit of my story and it's the
The case for the importance of language, the middle section of the book is an exploration of 87, human experiences and emotions. The last section of the book to me, is maybe where the, I feel like is the greatest contribution, which is I have been working on this damn framework for cultivating connection with ourselves and each other for 22 years. It started as my dissertation research, but I couldn't figure it out. I thought when I wrote the gifts of
Perfection. I had it figured out. I didn't I thought I had it with daring greatly and braving the Wilderness. I didn't and then I thought actually I resigned myself to never being able to build a framework. I just it wasn't going to happen things that I was learning. As I started doing this research one. I was wrong about a couple of things. Really wrong, just like dead-ass wrong. Like I got it wrong. One was along with probably every other emotion research.
Sure. I know I have said this sentence a thousand times. We should learn how to recognize emotion and ourselves and others. I do not think it is possible to learn how to recognize emotion and other people.
I think that's bad business. I don't think
it's possible need to mind your own house.
Well, you have to mind your own house that. Secondly, if I saw, no matter what Behavior you were engaged at, if I saw you raging and throwing the books behind you, if I saw you sobbing. Yeah, there are 50 emotions that present each of those ways, correct? And so I'm going to have to make
Make a ton of assumptions and because
more different at the bottom line. What you're saying is we really just because you're seeing that we really don't know what's going on nothing and how many other layers of things are going on, nothing, nothing and nothing. And
what am I going to shove the experience of my employee? Who's upstairs, crying, and who's 25 black and a single mom? I'm going to shove her experience in front of my lens, which is, you know,
Mid 50s look completely different. So the idea of walking in someone else's shoes and trying to understand what they're feeling. I believe has no merit. I think the call is much more difficult and much more powerful and that is
To ask the person for their story of what it's like in their shoes. And to believe them. I think it's not about guessing what they're feeling. It's about
people, that's more powerful you now, believe than even trying to walk in their shoes because, you know, in their shoes because you are worldview, your purview is completely different as it's completely different. He has a 50s white woman versus a 25 year old single mom.
Like mother. Yeah. Yeah.
So the problem becomes. Why do why do we think? We have to walk in other people's shoes?
Why can't you just that is so powerful. Renee? Why can't you just believe hear their story and believe that? What they're saying is
true. Well, the problem is the believing part.
Mmm, and the problem is in not believing her when she tells me her story.
Because it either challenges, what I want to be true about the world.
Or it challenges, my idea that there's just one experience of the world, or it makes me accountable in some way. That makes me uncomfortable. Mmm. So when I started doing this research, I came across a concept from Buddhism that. I remember reading many years ago that I didn't, I didn't it didn't hit me. I just saw it. I moved on.
When I came across at this time.
I thought this is the piece missing for the framework on meaningful connection. And it's the concept of the near enemy and I've heard Kristin Neff. Talk about it. I've heard Jack kornfield talk about it and what a near enemy is.
It is a, an emotion or a virtue.
That looks and feels and masquerades like the thing that we are looking for or want to be, but it's sabotages it.
And the reason I needed this concept was because when you study connection for, as long as I have what you realize is that the far enemy, the far enemy of emotions, is not the problem. The problem is not when I call you and I'm suffering and your, you know, instead of giving me compassion, you're cruel.
That's easy. Like I get it. Like, I just got punched in the face. Mmm. The problem is the near enemy when I call you and I'm desperate for connection.
And the near enemy of compassion is pity and so you pity me and feel sorry for me and it seems like everything should be okay when that's over, but I feel more alone and more disconnected and there's no meaningful connection between us. So the big finding for me for this book was re-examining the concept of near enemy and that the far enemy of connection.
Is disconnection, right? That makes sense, right? But the near enemy of connection is control.
Well, so if I see ya, if I see this 25 year old woman, crying upstairs and I say, what's going on and she says my kids sick. Again, her dad can't get her. I missed a whole day of work. Yesterday, to really be with her.
I can't try to control the situation. I can't say. Oh, we can handle that. I can't. You know what? I just to be with her means being in connection with her.
I got so hard. Those feel like impossible choices.
And then we can problem solve.
But I'll be honest with you. One of the things I was really trying to figure out is when we look at the macro world and we look at the last Administration or we look at some of the things going on in the political world. And we look at you see these politicians working people into this, you know, hysteria and you want to say, oh, they're not really, you know, they're not they're not can there not capable of connection so but there but there is that disconnect.
Pink people feel something. Oh, it's control. Its control control emotions are not. We don't get
curious. I don't even know. They're being
controlled. No, no, and it's emotions are not shared and discussed their exploited. And vulnerability is not mutual and reciprocal. It's leveraged. And I don't want to make it sound too Machiavellian because I thought about my own life when like if I
I had one of my kids came home and said, God, I got in trouble today for being disrespectful cause I got caught talking during a lecture connection would be like, tell me what was going on, but I don't go to connection sometimes. Sometimes I go to control, which is, you know, what, you get your ass over there, and send an email to that teacher and apologize for being disrespectful. And I want to know
Anne lamott says that help is the Sunny Side Of Control. We control situations when we start to move from being other focused. What was this like for my child in that situation to being cell focused? But it's sneaking your enemies are sneaky because they masquerade, you know, of course and so yeah
after your research into worry, you conclude.
Don't worry isn't too helpful coping mechanism. We all have been told that, right, but now he researched it and know how but then avoidance isn't either isn't helpful coping mechanism. So how do we avoid these traps?
So what's so funny about worry? Was it painful? I felt so called out was the research, the people who study researchers to study and research, worry said that worriers.
As those of us who do it, often have three things in common, that make it worse, one. We think it's helpful. It is not, it is not too. We believe that. We actually have no control over it. That it's not a choice. It is absolutely a choice and we can change it and three we worry about worrying and we ruminate about worrying, which exacerbates worry.
So how do we stop it? I mean, we all been told
You know it and when you you know, it doesn't change one thing but youth but just as you have written and said, we believe that we have no control over
it.
But would you would you think of worried as something that you could control? Like I would not think of that.
I would think that I've been in cases where I was in the midst of worrying. And I just really make myself stop the thought and move to what I can, or cannot do in this in this given situation.
Yeah, I think what we do when we, let me give you give you this definition from the researchers. Worry is defined as a chain of negative thoughts about
Things that might happen in the future. So I think when you study people who worry and have overcome worry,
what I what I've learned is Reality, Checking and perspective-taking.
Is that lie? Yeah, is this line of thought helping or hurting? Exactly? Do I have enough data to freak out? And if I do have an updated, a freakout, will that be helpful to me to freak out? And so those had become my questions. Every time one, do I have enough data to expend this amount of energy? No.
I just don't have enough data to be spending this resource. And even if I do have an update at, is this going to help me? And the answer is always, no always know. Yeah, so
this is a great contribution on, yet another great contribution, you brene brown or making to the world. I just want to talk about you for a moment. I was so excited and thrilled to hear that when this book was announced, something happened that had never happened before.
With books, you know, I follow books. I track books. I love books, huh? And the fact that this book went to number one on the best sellers. Well for there was even a physical book because you just got yours today. I just got mine today. There wasn't even a physical book. And it's number 1 means that hearts are open and yearning for what you have to say. And what does that, what does how does that speak to you?
How does it speak to the young woman? Who
wrote that article back in 1984? I'm looking for the trying to look at that picture again. How does that speak
to her? I mean, you always were aiming for and had a vision for how you could speak to the world about our feelings and now you're here. So, what does it mean to you
humbling? Scary grateful?
Shocking.
Why are you shocked? Are you really talking, or is there a part of
you that always knew
there was a part of me that always knew I would do this work? And there was a part of me that always knew. I would be successful, but I will be totally honest with you. Do you like my Flock of Seagulls haircut in that picture? I love the asymmetrical.
I love it. I love it. Did she, you know, did she know?
Some
somewhere in her, she knew, but she was fighting monsters.
Oh my God. I love this haircut though. I gotta tell you a little bit. Yeah. She was five. She was fighting monsters. And I
think she was fighting demons. She was drinking too much live in too hard. Trying to find some stuff that, you know, it's funny that superpower that I talked to you about having when I was young. Yes, it started dissipating at that age.
I have kind of lost it at that age and what I realized the correlation was the more the drinking and the partying got out of hand. The less connected. I was with my super power of being able to understand myself and other people and so, I don't know. I would say in the end. I'm probably just
more younger. It was almost. It was almost, it was almost psychic. It wasn't psychic, but there was a knowing that there was a flow to things. And so you could see things coming in ways, that
Other people could not see them coming. I'm just,
yeah. No, I mean, I had a gold velvet couch that had a pattern on it and the 70s. And I remember laying there one day. I mean, is the first time I ever thought about patterns, and my mom would talk about patterns because she would make dresses for me and her. And one that would match my Barbie. And I remember thinking this is, this is a pattern. This thing in this couch is a pattern. And then I would be like, oh, Mom and Dad have patterns, families have patterns, and so, I got really good at it.
Like I got really good at it. I can use it in the house out of the house. I got good at it. Yeah.
And then you went through that phase where the drinking and all of
that. Yeah the partying and that, you know dance halls. And yeah,
but now you're here now you're here creating a map. Not just for the world to end The Travelers, but allowing us to see ourselves in ways that we heretofore have not been able to clearly Define.
This is what you're doing for us. Thank you very much. And I know it must be humbling, but it's also got to be very exciting. You're standing on a stage. You're in a Netflix audience. You have millions of people around the world. You have every company that has people in once leadership calling you. How are you managing handling, keeping yourself focused with all of it
for about 10 years. We've had one question and we use it.
It to bet everything that comes in every speaking request every podcast. Everything which is does this serve their work and the research. Hmm. Does this serve the work in the research and we're really good at saying? No, when it doesn't. And I'm really bad at saying, yes, every time it does which is more times than you know, than I, I still overcommit sometimes too much, but I am I am as ambitious personally, as I am professionally.
Not going to miss a water polo game. I'm not going to miss an event for my kids. You know, I remember the first time we met we were, you know, there's a conversation. Can you stay an extra day? And I was like, you know, tomorrow's game day and carpool day. I've got to go back. Yeah, I think everyone around you is like, oh God. Did she just say that? And over? And you were like, yeah. She just said that. She's got to go back. Like you can fly back another week. Like she just said that and I and I am
I really try. I try to keep it all together and sometimes I'm good at it and sometimes I terrible, what's been the best part.
The most rewarding, that's the question. What's been the most rewarding? And the most
frustrating?
I know that that's frustrating so I can just go jump right into that. But let me think about the best part. Yeah, the best part. This is a part. I freaking cannot believe. You know, 30 people work here.
And they protect Steward amplify this work, just like it just like they gave birth to it.
They protect it. They you know, they they just the best part is really my team. Like I can't believe it. Like I really can't believe it. Sometimes I get to work with both my sisters and this group of people that are like we're going to make the world a braver place and we're going to tolerate very little be ass and it's incredible, but that's that's that's it. That's a miracle every day. I come here. It's like a little miracle.
It is such a, that is such a wonderful feeling to be surrounded by the people. Number one. You trust who also are bringing value to you. Yes, it's stimulating. That's why I thought when you owe and all the researchers were together that had to be like a most stimulating fun thing. I mean, I, I remember those years with my team and even though there's a lot of late nights and hard work. It's it's so rewarding and fulfilling.
And the and the challenging, part
social media. Yeah, I mean, you know, what do, what do you do? Like, I still find myself. I don't know. It's so immature, but I still find myself, like, casting and crying like, you don't know me.
You don't know me. Why are you saying that?
You know, I mean much worse language, as you can imagine, but that guy that's still just that can be the Cesspool of humanity. I
Absolutely. Did you feel tested during the pandemic? Did you in the family? They'll test it. What test do you the
most the most difficult season of my marriage in 30 years?
Jesus, it's hard. God, that was that was hard because I was afraid all the time. I was afraid. My kids were going to get sick. I was afraid. My parents were going to get sick and Steve's a pediatrician. And I was like, you know, Ellen wants to do this because she was a senior in high school for doing the panda. I'm a senior in college in the pandemic. Can she do this? Yeah. I think it's okay. What do you mean?
Okay,
you can guarantee me a like
and then I was, you know, then he's like I got a text that Charlie said, he's gonna go to this practice and we decided last week he was at and and she's like, look, I know you want this to be binary, but the calculus is changing every day and we have to weigh social emotional connection, and I'm like, you know, and then he was really struggling. So it was and I had moved into the first.
Time in my life and to caregiving for parents.
My mom went into assisted living a week before the pandemic. Oh, my. Yeah, so we had to bust her out. Then bring her home and your home. Aha. Along with both my sisters and their kids. And husbands.
We quarantine together in your home. Wow, that's yeah. Yeah,
was your faith tested at
all?
But I was reminded this is from the, a, a big book, the biggest the most incredible thing. No one talks about this with the, a big book, but in the, a, a big book, they talk about the gift of neutrality, where you're not running towards something, nor are you running away from it?
So, I'm not running toward the breadbasket, nor am I running away from the Bread Basket? I just have neutrality, but the condition for neutrality is you have to be in fit, spiritual
condition. Wow,
and I believe that, and I mean, that has been my truth. And when I did realize in covid is I was not in fit spiritual condition.
So then, did you work on yourself to get in fit, spiritual condition?
Yes, as my as
yourself.
So far in your life that you needed to change
early on. I had a therapist tell me. Wow, Brunei, you know, the saying is not let go and let burn a right.
Renee
let go and let God. And
so what I realized is that I had I was getting my God on. Yeah, and so, so I needed to be reminded every now and then, Elizabeth Gilbert will send me. Text will send each other texts, that we remind each other about things like that. Always be like hate you. Love you. Bye. Like,
you know,
so fit spiritual condition. That's what I'm working on right now.
Well, I think what atlas of the heart does is help each of us, come to a greater sense of knowing and ultimately wisdom about ourselves through our being able to articulate the language for our emotions. And I'm wondering what is the piece of wisdom? You would like, the leaders of the world to most be able to use in their decision-making.
Hmm.
I think it it's really about self-awareness. Mmm. I think it's really, I think this is it. We cannot be more connected to other people than we are to ourselves. I did not understand that before. I wrote this book and before, while we desperately seek to build cultures of connection to build trust and team.
To do the right thing by the people that we serve. If we're not connected to self, if we don't understand our emotional landscape, if we don't understand what's driving our thinking and driving our behaviors because let me make no mistake. Emotion is at the wheel thanking and acting are not riding in the front seat. Shotgun. They are hogtied in the trunk emotion drives. We are emotional beings. Yeah.
Do not try to forge connection with others are build. A culture of connection until you are fully connected and know yourself. That's the favor you can do to all of us for all of us as parents as
leaders. And you were obviously working on this book with your team during the pandemic. And you all did such a beautiful job. I just want to applaud you again on the it's a beautiful book. Do you do?
You feel hopeful for where we are, and who we are as a nation
right now.
I do because I'm a, I'm just a genetically predisposed, ition for hope. I think we have a very significant threat to democracy. I think we are spiritually severed from each other and ourselves.
And I think if we don't figure out how to hold ourselves and other people accountable in a way that doesn't include shame and vitriol and belittling that really accountable, you have to be accountable for your actions. You have to be accountable for what you say. You have to be accountable for policies. I think if we don't better understand accountability, I think it's going to be a long walk.
So brene, how should we? Because this is the thing I wrestle with. How should because you, and I know and the people, we know know, because in our circles, we talk about this threat, but when you watch the news, you don't, you don't really hear it. It's not communicated in a language that people can feel or even here. So, how should we be talking about where we are in terms of our threat to our democracy in a way.
That it can be heard and is even threat the word. We need to use to be heard because I just feel like, wow, things are happening every day voter rights are being taken away. And yeah, counties and cities and people are sleeping on it. They're not hearing it, and they're not going to realize it until they go to vote in 2022 2024. What should we be saying and doing? And what is the language we need to communicate, so that people can not.
Get woke, but actually wake up.
I mean, I fear that we are in real trouble.
Yeah, no, I feel it. I feel it.
But I'm not sure about the language. I thought I think about this all the time I think about if I were doing the show now, what would I even be saying? What is the language? I would be using so that all sides both sides, the fearful side to conspiratorial sighs. How can you be heard? That's why this book is so important. The atlas is so important at this moment, helping us to articulate for ourselves those
But how do we do it for our country and our fellow country women and
men?
The only thing I have and I don't know if it's generalizable or if it's a solution, but it's what sustaining right now is I go back to Bell hooks.
And I go back to what we're experiencing and I'm not saying this in a you who we way is object lovelessness.
Agreed, I agree, abject
lovelessness. It's lovelessness. And I think the answer Bell hooks would say is love and not rainbow unicorn. Love but we if when we saw people suffering.
We made the choice to believe them or we asked ourselves. This question. What do I need to say to myself over and over to make this suffering? Okay, when I see this, when they eat, when I see these refugees, when I see this, when I see this suffering,
when I see last night, I'm looking at nine year olds being married in Afghanistan to feedback. Yes,
right? Yeah. What do I have to say to
myself? Yes,
to make this.
Okay, it's the other side of the world. Well, they don't know any better. So it's probably doesn't feel the harder scary for them. What do I have to say? And so I do think loves and I'm talking, I'm talking gritty wild-eyed. Love. Not not not, not Valentine's Day. Love. Yeah, but I'm talking about gritty will love because I do think this is a problem of lovelessness.
And that's Bell hooks his work, not mine. But I am sinking so deep into it right now that it's like a warm blanket and it's and I'll tell you it is reignited. It's the only thing Oprah that is reignited my activism in the last year because I weighed into all kinds of hard conversations all the time, but when I get weary, I think of two things
Chad Bozeman's commencement, speech. I'm here for my purpose and Bell hooks a lot and lovelessness. And I just say, I'm here for my purpose, and if I see lovelessness, I'm going to speak, love to it.
And if that's not okay with you, that's okay, but I'm going to speak love to lovelessness.
Well, thank you for providing a map for us to find our way to it. Thank you so much brene
Brown. Thank you. I really appreciate it.
Really beautiful. Thanks. Great. As usual
great. I really appreciate you. Thank you.
I'm Oprah Winfrey. And you've been listening to super-soul conversations the podcast. You can follow super-soul.
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