Welcome to Bank Less, where we explore the frontier of Internet money and internet. Finance. This is how to get started, how to get better and how to front run the opportunity. This is Ryan, Sean Adams. I'm here with David Hoffman and we're here to help you become more thankless. Great episode for you guys today. The internet reset. We just pull out the power cord and restart this whole thing. That's the idea.
We get into this discussion with Alexis Ohanian who has been recently crypto pilled few things to take away from this episode. Number one, hear his story. How did Alexis actually get crypto pilled the founder of Reddit, co-founder of Reddit? He fell down the rabbit hole. What does that look like? Number two? How he'd actually rebuild read it. If it was on web 3, what does that look like? And number three, his investor cheat codes where the next opportunities in crypto be on the lookout. For some of those that are mentioned as well. David. What?
Thoughts in this conversation with Alexis. Yeah. I very clearly remembered. The moment. I got into Reddit and started to understand what was really going on there. In the thing that captivated me about that platform was just the emergent behaviors that, the platform enabled, the communities and it was just one of these things where all these weird, quirky, internet culture, things all seem to be born out of Reddit. So like The Rage Comics, some of the early memes and like memes and read it, I discovered these things around the same.
Time and it's really all about emergent behaviors. And so we take this conversation to Alexis about what he sees in the early days of Reddit and the parallels that he seeing now in web three and that was a very important story for him and how he was able to wrap his mind around web 3. It was using a lot of these early concept. These early principles that Reddit really leaned into that are now like on steroids in the world of web three in the world of online Internet, crypto enabled communities. And so we unpack all these parallel.
And connect them to the internet at large and how this internet culture was definitely existent in web-one kind of lost in web to. But is now as you said, getting reset and reborn in web 3, which is what Alexis. Apparently, makes him optimistic about the future of where this whole internet experiment is going, it's a super cool conversation in Reddit. I think is one of the most organic internet, native social media platforms, certainly today, it's where I
kind of got my start learning about
crypto.
Do as well. And I think probably many the bank was audience did too and so fantastic conversation. Really fascinating. I think there's some insights here. You can carry with you into the investing world as well about what's coming next in web. Three and what's coming next in crypto. Alexis has been on our
bank. Less podcast wish list for quite some time.
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Bangla station, we are super excited to introduce you to our next guest Alexis Ohanian. He's a technology entrepreneur. Now a VC noun investors focused on making the world a better place as VC, firm 776. He's an early investor in lots of products that we know and love coinbase, taxi Infinity, open sea in the web three space, even the software. We're actually using to record this. It's called Riverside investing that to. You may also know him as one of the cofounders of Reddit and he's really an expert.
In the internet, I think specifically internet communities. So he's got a lot to teach us today. Alexis. Welcome to bank was how you doing, man?
I'll thank you for having me Ron. I just happy to be here. Gotta enjoy chatting with you and David before the show began. I'm happy. I'm happy. We hit record so we can save all this gold for yours.
Do you know what you always look like you are having fun? Oh good. The internet like whatever you do. It always looks like you're having fun and everything. You do also feels like very human.
Like it feels just very authentically. Human. Is that a through line? Is that
something you'd striven for? Is that just part of your nature? I think it's the latter. I think it's a part of my nature. You gotta look. I guess you got to dig up the old content from like 05 and 06, you know, grinding it out founding Reddit to see if I still have the same Vibes, but I think so. I don't know. I've the advice I find myself giving CEOs more often than not is to be to think of communication on the internet just as you would communication offline.
And and you know, this this really comes up and community building is people for 16 years, especially in the last couple years been asking, like how do you build community blah blah blah, and and a lot of it comes back to the same way. You would do it offline. If you were inviting people over to your house or bringing folks over to you know convention hall, like you think about Community Building online, the same way you do offline, you bring good people together, you give them opportunities to, you know, have great experiences. Your, you know, the sort of like the idea.
Deal party host is someone who's not there talking about themselves, but helping connect good people and starting good conversations and good times. And that's that's so much of it. And I think I've been fortunate because creating Reddit was probably was not just a great outcome for me professionally, but it also set the stage for getting the Reps in for all the things that are most valuable now in web 3, 16 years later. And and it's just about that authenticity and I guess that's it.
That's my
vibe. Is that what brought you into web 3? Is that what brought you in your crib? Does like we talked to so many people on Bank lists, and they all have a story of how they came into crypto and crypto has all of this surface area. Right? Some people are, you know, it's a pla the finance side of it, the economic side of it the like Sovereign money side of it. The individual Expressions that what brought you into crypto. What was your hook?
So there's what brahmi and the crypto and then there's what crypto pilled me which are two different questions like about before the first I
2011 2012. I was a partner, Y, combinator, and I meet this is bright young man. Who just left Airbnb, a great job at Airbnb. I think it had just become a billion dollar company. It was a clear winner in Silicon Valley and he had been doing fraud detection and prevention. There's, he was Brian Armstrong and he'd entered that Bachelor. I see. And he said, you know what, I think Bitcoin is going to be a big deal. And right now it's a pain in the ass to buy and sell and I want to make it really easy. I
Make it so simple for anyone to buy some Bitcoin participate in this and candidly. The only reason I did that seed investment was because the r / Bitcoin community, on Reddit at the time was so engaged. And as an investor, I'll tell you my cheat code and I've been pretty public is not that secret, but I visit the nascent Reddit communities. If there are them if they exist for the things I'm investing in.
Because that's a great barometer. You can't really fake community on Reddit. If it's there it's there if it's not like it requires such a Herculean effort to make work. That think you're not going to fake that one easily. And I don't know, I just saw something there, that was pretty wild. It was really in fatik. I had been to enough at this point. I'm still think I've been to more red and meetups than any person on the planet, like, literally all over the world and it more and more read. It. Meetups. I was hearing from worn more renters may think of the
Folks who came out to a Reddit me up in, like 2011, 2012, 2013, injuries are hardcore DieHard users. I'm going to go to some meetups. Yeah, I go to, like, Riga in Latvia, or I went to a Reddit meet up in, Halifax up there in Canada. Nova Scotia. It like, I mean, not just LA and New York, SF but like everywhere. And I went to one in Bangalore India. So, okay, one of the interesting through lines was like, for these really hardcore redditors. I started hearing more and more about Bitcoin and
About crypto and about these ideas of decentralization. And I thought, okay. Well the r / Bitcoin Community, super hyped about this. If you can get that many redditors that excited about a new technology, you're probably, there's probably something worth paying attention to but the government of definitely shut it down. So I'm not gonna get my hopes up too high, but still that that and those were the pretenses through which I got excited about doing this investment.
It was years that went by, it started to see more and more talented people, you know, wanted to go all in on it and I thought, okay. This is interesting. You know, I still don't think it's gonna be like survive because if it works, this will, this is just going to a sale. So many institutions, right? It will up, and let me so many parts of our lives and, and reimagine them. And there's no way that that's gonna actually work because it just candidly just seems so far-fetched.
And and then when I got crypto pilled properly was at the start of covid because I started looking around and seeing, you know, and at this point, right, coinbase is on its way to IPO had been making a number of Investments over the years around the space and been lucky to be a part of some early pre-sales. And, yeah, I done. Well, but the whole time I'm just like kind of holding my breath because I'm like, this is too good to be true. Like when when you're a kid reading about major, historical events.
And and technological shifts there. At least when I was a kid, doing those things. I just never could have imagined myself being a part of it. Let alone live like, living during that time let alone being party to. It just seemed pretty part pretty far-fetched. And so with every passing year. I'm like, holy shit. This thing is actually, like, it's the keeps growing. It's growing. There's there's more and more talented bright driven people building on it, which is a great sign. And, and then I started seeing things, you know, as we're all locked in.
Side, we're all feeling, all kinds of, you know, existential dread anxiety about the world. You started seeing people looking for ways to commune digitally and all of a sudden Twitter. Where is already spending a ton of my time started having more and more conversations around all things Krypton. And if these were certainly 11, popular one, but more broadly, just more and more people talking about building, create any gether. And I started to see things that reminded me of early Reddit.
And that's when I got fully crypto pilled because I realized like, okay, we've reached the point of no return. This is from a like regulation standpoint and we'll see what this executive order that's coming out. But you know, we we've essentially reached a point where maybe, you know, country Ukraine was taking donations over Bitcoin in aetherium. Like we've reached a point now where it's a part of the culture, there's enough people who are bought in literally and figuratively to it, and
And it's here to stay. And so now you start thinking. Okay. What can we do with this and, and over the last few years? I just started seeing so much of this really interesting energy that just like I said, reminded me, their leader is a read it. Except now people who were early in, right? Could benefit from the upside. And and I mean that both financially, but also sort of spiritually, right? We are, I don't even back when we were just collecting like seashells.
Owls on the beach, our species, really likes private property and we like this idea and look, the ability to have private property. Also incidentally, makes it even more interesting to than have shared property because that shared properties only special, if you have a concept of personal and private property, but at its core like there is something special about that. And seeing that switch, flip among so many people who now found a new Gateway into, why? This?
Matter because now they could reimagine how gaming could be different and they started seeing versions that obviously an investor. And actually, like you said, so rare. Another one and seeing seeing this resonate as a kid who grew up playing tons of video games, and spent tons and tons of money that I'll never get back. And yet also a kid who you know, bought a ton of trading cards and magic cards even spell fire, which was like the DND knock off of Magic, the Gathering, you know, we took for granted the fact that we owned all of our in-game assets because you know, you bought the card and then
Then you got to keep them and if you wanted to give them your kid Sister, you could sell them, we can do it. Every one of them. They were yours and the metaphors seems so obvious to me. It's obviously still pretty contentious in some communities, but I think in hindsight will again just feel very very, very clear. And and so as I sat here watching all of these people get so excited creating together and hoping together and that I guess it was the that communing of people tied into a sense of ownership and a
For first creating something bigger. I mean, even looking at, you know, failures like Constitution dou. You still see the same kind of energy. That just roommate reminded me of 15 years ago on Reddit, is people pooled money together to help for a fundraiser just to do some good work, right, but now you have something that's not limited to one platform. It is truly Global it is it is bound realest and man. I mean, we're in the earliest days of its. Anyway, that's what I got. Crippled was the wedge and for me was seeing this community behavior that reminded me of early days of
At exit. Now. It's so much more potential and so much more upside because it's not singular. It's not centralized. It is truly Global and
that's definitely where I want to go down the rabbit hole of just to get this conversation started off, which is just the parallels because there's so many parallels between Reddit and web three as you've alluded to. And I think a lot of the parallels between these two things are also very foundational to the internet itself. There's a lot of things about Reddit that captivated my attention when I first got into it that also captivated my attention.
About web 3. I kind of want to unpack these things with you, because I think it'll give listeners premonitions of things to come. And the rest of this decade, the things that captivated my attention about, read it. When I first logged on, was that like, it gave the user so much control and it gave the community so much control. So, like a subreddit was basically like a blank slate of a Down of sort. It had, it was just up to the community to etch in the story of what this subreddit was and everyone on.
Edit would start with like a blank account and it kind of feels like it felt like when you made your Reddit accounts like you spun up your brand-new etherium address for the first time, these felt like the same things and like learning how to read it and learning what read it was. Was something that you had to experience for yourself. You can use no on board. There's no on board and you have to just go do it and do the same thing of web three. Like you can't really just like, listen, a Banquets and understand web three, you have to go and actually experience it for yourself and like this is also true for like kind of the
At one point, 0 days, like, you couldn't just go read about it. You had to go experience. It was all community-driven. And now that we have this web three data point and is Reddit data point and this web one data point, it kind of all seems that there's some amount of just like individual First Community, First user self sovereignty, emergent Behavior platforms that the internet is trying to produce and I'm wondering using your history and experience that read it. How you see this all unfolding in the world of web 3 and
Beyond
So I think we inadvertently got a lot of things right in a process that really was was rooted in an experience growing up on forums. I mean, I ran a pH P BB Forum in college, you know, open source software ran. This was called eyes. Wide dot-org had maybe 600 700 community members active. And, and we just talked about politics. We talked about philosophy. It was just, I just loved doing it in college and
My friends at the time thought I was pretty weird for doing it. But it was it just felt good to be a community manager and I just really enjoyed the conversations there and I felt like it was satisfying. This was right after 9/11. It was satisfying a part of me that wasn't getting fed with with traditional media and you know, you know starting Reddit right after that it really in a lot of ways, right. This is just repackaging. Message boards and forums that have
Around since the earliest days the internet but creating it in a sort of singular network with a slightly better interface slightly. I still, I got a few things right with you, folks, and down, votes, and comments sorting, but some of the other things are a little little to Spartan, but designing all that was really just and sort of remix of web one and and then, you know, the whole innovation of quote-unquote web to and look. I know people can roll her eyes at The Branding of web 30. This is sort of a necessary evil.
We're going to just let the same time. I swear in 2004-2005 starting Reddit. Everyone was rolling their eyes the same way around web to and they were just like, oh, this is just some fun JavaScript that lets you load things on the page in real time. Like why are we calling this? A movement and user-generated content? Whatever. Yes, it's all just branding but it's I think it's an important shorthand because it is identifying a major transition. Now, and this isn't my quote but the idea that you know, web to was read and write. And now we've moved to web three which is read and write and own is
Really meaningful because we inadvertently got some things right? And I remember, even designing the karma system was just look name. Taken from slashdot. The upvotes - down V. Equals Karma score was the laziest implementation. I come up with simply because it worked to encourage good content and discourage bad content. And you know, it turned out it was very motivating for people because they like seeing your name on a leaderboard.
And I borrowed all kinds of elements from video games for things like Awards, and tenure Club Badges, and all these other things, which now people identify with they'll introduce themselves, not with their government name or their Reddit. User name will just add my five-year redditor. A 10-year redditor to fall 12 15 or read or write but those are just pains that live on our server, but now all of a sudden if you talk about paintings that live on a chain you now have real receipts. Right. And and my very naive take on this is if it worked without ownership.
It will work really well with ownership because there is value in having those receipts. And and so I really believe in, you know, speaking broadly around web to sew the side, you know, social media as we know it, as I know you all are younger than me. So as you all grew up with is probably going to look like a weird transition, I think in the grand scheme of the internet is actually going to look like a blip because
It becomes an intelligence test. Once you provide ownership as to why you would ever want to participate in a scheme where you don't actually own the things that you produce it, right? The user experience is today are still so janky and I actually don't, I mean it yet. Like we still could have done a better job. I take full responsibility. Could have done a better job onboarding. New users to read it. For sure. I think it would have helped us grow a lot faster. I think don't don't take don't have the lesson be
Make a terrible new user onboarding experience. Make the lesson from this in spite of a terrible new user onboarding experience. There was something here that people still wanted to dive into into, because the content in the community was so good and so strong, but even if we'd had a better new user onboarding experience, you still would have needed one. Still would have needed to like, take time to actually understand the community before diving. In and why? Because these online communities are the same as offline. Communities, you move to a new town.
Of a sudden. I don't know where y'all are in the world. But all of a sudden you move the next day to Bangalore shout out the redditor. So I met at that meat up. You you you show up the first day and want to make some friends. You don't just barge into the first. I don't know meet up. You can find a first restaurant. You can find it. Just start saying hi to people and start pitching whatever you're into, right? That's just not we as a human, as a species. Were going to spend a little bit of time, understanding a new community. We're going to spend little time, observing and watching and listening to start to learn etiquette.
Culture and all these other things that we can have a good experience online community. Should work the exact same way. And that's the part that is, on the one hand. It creates friction, but on the other hand, that friction creates the culture and the community, and the reason why there are in jokes in there out jokes, and so that's always a tension that we as a species have to figure out and navigate but it's what defines communities and what's Wild now is we know, it worked social media, proved it worked at scale.
With billions of people all across the world in spite of the fact that the, the the ownership equation wasn't there. The user experience was was all things considered actually pretty bad, right? Because at the end of the day, the way that you kept the lights on was by harvesting people's private information for advertising or some other version of that, which was not really rewarding the content creators or the Community Builders it in today. So, I don't know, I think it's going to be a blip and I just
Analog that yet, but hopefully, that's a few lessons that are valuable for the Builders of
today. Well, we are definitely here to hear your monologues. And so the next monologue I want to hear is unpacking the topic of just like emergence. When you don't ascribe too much top-down design structures, as I think, as I claim that like Twitter and Facebook and Instagram have done in their designs telling the users. Well, this is the way that this app is structured read it and a lot of the web one days and I think what we're seeing a lot in the web three days is like,
Like, just like a basic. Here's a fundamental primitive platform for your community to exist. Now, go create you, go do something and like this natural. The creativity that you that a lot of these platforms bestow upon, their users gives them a lot of room to have their own emergent behaviors. And what is really emergent Behavior, other than, like, the culture that we all agree on that. We decide that we have value. How do you see this? Like role of emergent behaviors in online communities?
Like, how do you see this trajectory moving forward Beyond platforms, like Reddit, and into the world of web 3.
So, we are in the earliest days of this year. Right? And we're going to see emergent behaviors come up and, and they're going to define a lot of what we love and enjoy. The wild Dynamic. Here is, I actually think at some point, you know, on the adoption kind of tech adoption curve. You get to that fat part in the middle and the average user. They're actually doesn't want to Tinker, doesn't want to create, does not.
On a blank canvas, the person there, and they're necessary component, right? To become mainstream You by definition. Have to grab those folks in the middle. Maybe don't want to become a teacher. But if you want, I did a truly become entry. You need a lot of people who actually are never going to care about that stuff. And as a product designer and as an investor, now, I think a ton about user experience because the user experience for those earliest adopters is different from the user experience of the mainstream. And that's, it's an interesting tension, because yes, by its nature everything on
In is very like, good luck, sovereign individual, wish you all the best figure out for yourself. And look, I consider myself a pretty early adopter. I still, however, I want to be coddled in certain parts of my like crypto and web three experience, because I just like there are things. I want to invest my time in and then, there are other things that I don't, there are things. I want to invest my anxiety in and then there are other things, I don't. And, and so every user is going to fall somewhere.
Somewhere on that sort of tech adoption curve across different Technologies and different needs. All that said, the emergent Behavior period that we're in right now is fascinating, because I'll give you a specific a light. Some of the most famous things about Reddit, did not come from us. It came from our users. So for instance, even the coat, the notion of self posts. So the idea is originally read it started. We just let people link out that was it. And we had a, not very good SEO.
Strategy, which meant that our comments Pages were just sequentially numbered. So when you post it a new link, it would just it would be appended with, you know, 3465. And then if you posted one, we 3466 and one of our users realize this and guessed, what the link would be when they hit publish and made a self-referring post, which created the first self post. We thought that was clever. Okay, let's just productized that. So we did and then it wasn't long thereafter. The one of
I showed up and said, hey, I'm going to, you know, I'm a dental hygienist, ask me anything. I figure what the original one was and it was this interesting Meme and and people loved asking questions of some random person who wasn't a celebrity just had an interesting life or maybe not even that interesting ostensibly, but you get to ask some fun questions and actually becomes really interesting and and, you know, AMA is are now in graded internet culture. I don't even know how many people actually even know those came from Reddit, but we have a show called AMA, ask me anything. It's all from Reddit, right? That's where it original of an Ama.
I'm well. I'm glad see and I'm glad that it has flourished. It is totally invented by some random person on the internet. Some pseudonymous person will never know and and it's probably one of the most famous things that read it has done. Right? And so that gives us a lens into like how you can benefit from Rich Behavior. Even when you have a top-down centralized company like we did, which is just, you know, still still shipping the things we want to ship. But doing so that's pretty well-informed and reactive to.
I'm stuff. We see happen. And, and that is the very nature of everything that is getting built right now and the prom at the end of the day, any centralized organization still has to make its gift and a curse. So they still have to make hard decisions about what to focus on and what not to. Because if you focus on the right thing, like I don't think SpaceX can happen in a truly decentralized fashion. Maybe someone wants to get out there and get it started. Prove me wrong. Thanks.
But I really believe, right? Something that complex, something that right, you know, the average person actually can't contribute to helping SpaceX in a lot of ways, like you actually need rocket scientist to do a lot of that work. Kind of thing. There are some projects where you really need centralization and you could still take lessons from this world fine. But like, I don't know, I will see if we'll see if the rocket doubt, prove me wrong, but there are plenty of things though. We're a a properly incentivized.
Devised and connected, decentralized Community will outperform, any centralized group a million times out of a million and create content. Creation is a really great example of that, right? As evidence. You can look at I mean, even Tick Tock which is still one of those web to manifestations crushing quippy did matter how many dollars you had how many a-listers you had. You're never going to compete with millions of teenagers with smartphones able to produce content endlessly. That is on Trend. That is inventing Trends. That's you know, what people want. Okay, but this I
I'm excited to see now because we get the web one energy of. Hey, holy shit. I just made a website on Geo cities. Like what can I do next? And I was that kid, right? That's how I got into programming was was I got a, I got a book on HTML for and started building a website on geocities. I'm like, this is the coolest thing ever. And I misread the page counter at the bottom. And so I thought I cuz everytime I reload to check, you know, I was updating an image or whatever. I assumed it was a random person actually.
Really coming to see the website. It's like, oh my God, there's like 10,000 people on my site. This is amazing. It was just ten thousand page views and is all me, but right that change my life. Now that in gosh, I was in as he graduated, as it was from 1997. Maybe that's what it was, 96 97. I was 13, 14 years old. I had no idea. I could not even conceived. The Ten Years Later, I'd be designing these up votes, and down votes and a real.
Commenting system and a platform like Reddit, just 10. Let not even 10 years later. And because my brain was still so naive. And so just awestruck with like, oh shit. I can put an image on the website that it on a website that anyone in the world can see. And so we're in a similar stage now, where everyone's just kind of like, oh shit, we can put things on the internet that anyone can see like what can we do next? The difference is, when all of us were doing it back then, you know, aside,
Except for some forums and message boards were pretty siloed. Right? This was a sub subculture of people building today. Thanks to the web to blip. It is now mainstream culture. Internet culture is culture. Everyone is online and spending most of their lives there, right? You can even argue the metaverse has been here, not just with obvious examples, like World of Warcraft and Fortnight, but even Instagram. There are people already buying assets. They're buying the Louis Vuitton purse.
Take a photo of to impress a bunch of digital people with their digital asset which just happens to be a photo of them wearing the purse that 99.999% of people will never actually see them with. So the metal versus here. It's just not evenly distributed and we're still in this interesting Tinker phase of creation, except we have an audience that is global and ready and excited by what we're building. And so instead of it, taking the next Alexis 10 years to be like, oh, I can make a website anju cities.
He's too. Am watching this thing called Reddit. It's gonna take them Ten Weeks, ten months. I don't know the, but the rate of innovation is going to happen so much faster. And and I'm, I like this is why I'm so excited about this is why like I don't have to be working right now. But the reason I needed to start 776, the reason I need to spend the time that I spend building this and working with amazing Founders is because like this is building a new internet for my daughter and lots of people's kids to inherit and I'm just
Days that I get to participate in
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Alka. Mix is a defy app that offers self repaying loans that lets you spend money and save money at the same time, alchemax allows you to deposit the dice table coin into its faults, which earned some of the highest yields that defy has to offer. You can then take a loan from Alchemy mix of up to 50% of the deposited die and that loan, automatically pays itself, back from the yield, that is generated from your deposit. It's a savings account that the banks don't want you to know about Malcolm. X also has Esports available so you can get a self repaying loans.
Nominated and eat coming up in alchemy X. V2 is a bunch of cool new features such as credit delegation multi-chain expansion, and our Revenue sharing and vote. Boosting alchemax. Lets you get your interest payments on your deposits. Paid to you up front. Check out the power of alchemy mix at alchemax at .f I and make sure to join their extremely vibrant Discord. If you want to participate in governance or have any questions about the project, I'm curious about this because I think there are a lot of probably 14, 15 year-olds listening, you know, to bank lists and
Exploring the web three space and the same way you were when you were that age like building stuff on geocities, right? And I'm curious if you could, like, I guess put yourself in the shoes of let's say you only rather than you and 2005. When you started Reddit, you're in like the year 2022 and you've got these new web, three Primitives that are basically we have the web one web to communication protocol Primitives, and that's great. But now we have this
ownership protocol primitive now.
How would you rebuild a Reddit or how would you build the next big thing? Like, put these ingredients together for us? Because you've got this expertise around communities. This experience with Reddit. Now you've seen the potential of all of these new ownership Primitives that are coming in web 3, what would it look like, you know, a new Reddit? For
example, I would think of Reddit a little bit like Craigslist or a little bit like entrepreneurs 15 years ago. I thought
About Craigslist and not just because of the aesthetic similarities. But if you'll recall, you know, there were a couple of Plucky Founders in why see, who had backed who were going after a section of Craigslist called rentals. And they said, look, like, people can rent, you know, a bedroom for a couple days on Craigslist, but the user experience is terrible, right? It doesn't feel safe at all. And we're going to build something called Airbnb, which will make it beautiful for people to feel safe renting out or
Hang someone spare, bedroom. Someone made us great mock-up of how all of these businesses, basically, carved up parts of Craigslist, to offer verticalized sections of that platform. And so, the way I would think about it is, you know, there are all these emergent Community behaviors that we saw across. Read it over almost two decades across, all kinds of different things from Raising hundreds of thousands or millions of dollars in a fundraiser to trying to coordinate dollars to like name.
Name a bowl game off of our / CFB the college football subreddit to.
You know, even just creating artwork have giving creators like shitty watercolour, a platform where they could just make great content. And and so you start thinking about this and you're like, okay. Well I commented somewhere. I think I was on, I was on another pot and I got asked about Dows or I guess who's ambitious predictions the next five years. I think everyone or a material number of people are going to participate in a dow over. The next five years. They won't know it. They don't need to know what it's called. Remember the average person doesn't
Know what a hypertext transfer protocol is they don't need to, they just need to know that they want to go on the internet and visit a website and we should be thinking about NF tease the same way. We should be thinking about thousand the same way, right? These are underlying protocols. We are so damn down in the weeds. The average person only cares about user experience. The average person only talks about user experience. That's the thing. They tell their friends, when they use something delightful, right? They're not talking about the protocol layer to make it happen. They're talking about. I did this dope thing. You should come, do it with
Me. And so that's if I'm if I'm building here. I'm thinking about this stuff and I'm thinking about how we abstract away so much of the crappy parts of the user interface to make it seamless for people to get value out of this new technology. And so maybe it is pooling money together so that you can buy the Constitution. And, you know, there's there's there's a probably a dozen companies now trying to be some version of the easy Dow, but thinking along those lines is what is going to get this all to the next level.
And again, it's exciting. I wake up every morning like a kid on Christmas Day because I'm like frantically on Twitter and catching up on some discords. Just trying to see what I missed. Just trying to see what else shipped and what else is happening. And and so I would spend a lot of time actively engaged in the communities of Builders who impressed you the most right. Follow them on Twitter. Be a part of telegram groups that you feel are high signal Discord Community. Is like, this is where the learning is happening in public. There are so many
Charlatans it breaks, my heart. All the charlatans in this space and I'll Tai Lopez just didn't have teacher up like they suck. I hate hate hate hate that part of it. Say it's a it is a unfortunately a you know, it is a reality, right? When you create when you have a system like this, especially one that involves money and value creation like this, right? It's going to attract grifters. It's going to track charlatans and you know it I
Cannot ever endorse any of them but I realized they're a part of the process of the best thing we can do is just shun them and hopefully encourage them to build real things. And but I would say stay away from the stay away from Quick Cash grabs. I being long-term greedy in this environment is going to be so much more selfish and such a smarter, move financially, then being short term greedy. And so that's one of my mantras because
You're really creating something of long-term value for as many people as possible, like that actually, in this system is going to create a lot of outsized value for you in the long run. But also do the thing that we need which is building things that people actually want and actually sort of moves the needle on progress, not just another lazy cash grab. I do think people forget that the best asset they have in the web one web to web three spaces, the reputation at that room is so for sure, dude. I have absolutely, you know, I was fundraising from a pretty well-known guy gets
Has Peter teal. And this was we we they passed incidentally, and but he asked, he asked me, this is a long time ago, but you ask me. He's like what's one thing about the world that you realize other people don't or whatever. The canonical Peter took question and I was like, well, it's that people will care more about their Reddit user name then their government name. Hmm, and I think I got it half right? I do know that that is true. Now it's, you know, five years later, six years later and there are so many ready.
To care more about their identity. Even though it's totally contrived, its fluffy bunny 16, because that's where they have relationships. That's where they have Fame, that's where they have, whatever a history of things that they've created, what they have something, right? They have meaning they have Community. Whereas our Pacific could show up for work at the office for an officer's, but chivalry office everyday. See the same people every day and not have any kind of connection with them and that is special. And so I say I got it half right, because I will now apply that argument
To what is being created? In web three, I believe wholeheartedly the online identity, the digital identity, which will more often than not be pseudonymous is going to be more valuable to more people than their government name. And incidentally is a species. This is not totally new and I learned this at we sponsored a drag con. Gosh, this is like 2014 2015 and I remember talking to a couple of folks during the AMA is a couple. These Queen said like we were talking on the subject.
Like, don't you understand. Our entire culture is around community of people who have decided. We want to create an identity for ourselves. Right? This is the truest expression of our self and doesn't usually aligned with what's on the government issued ID, but it's who we are and I'm sitting here like okay here is now a very clear offline precedent for this the internet now enables it at a much greater scale but still preserves this level of intimacy, and now that you add ownership to it. I mean get out of the way it's used. This is
Going to keep growing and steamrolling. And like I said, you might be sitting here listening to this podcast thinking. Well, like I don't actually want to spend all my time online. I never could imagine getting excited about digital asset and I just remind you of, I remind you that Instagram photo. You took of that great outfit because you're actually already participating in this in a way because you're you're you've created a digital self. You have a digital identity that you probably care just as much if not more.
Out then you're offline one. That's why that's why these apps are so popular and that part for the generation coming up. It's already hardwired for this generation of true. True digital natives. Now, there's no turning that clock back because it's such an empowering thing to have it that I don't see it going back.
Do you know what the last concept? I think we want to talk about is it conceptually because I think you're making a
great case for web three throughout this
and to me web three more resembles.
As web-one than it does like web to right and that everything is. So I read the book that you wrote out of those back in
2013 2014 without their permission. Wow,
right? Yeah. He said yeah, yeah. Deep cut I went to the deep cut but I think the concept of without their permission is like with web-one. Anybody could create a website launching apps, start a
community. Build a company. No
permission required. No intermediary, right? And I feel
like between web one and web
to we sort of lost a piece of that.
Sticks and calls it a little bit. Like the internet became de Zeal and you've got like, a
few centralized companies, that kind of control. All the
property, didn't feel like, New York City, didn't feel like, Brooklyn. There's nothing organic about it. Now. I feel like web 30 is starting to recapture that element.
I'm wondering if you could talk about, this may be the last concept of permissionless
necess. Why is that so fundamental? Why is that so necessary?
So I believe it is fundamental and necessary for tremendous creativity.
Tivity, I do look at this stuff as cycles. And I do think we're at the start of a new excuse me to your point. I think similar to web one with the start of a new cycle where it is sort of inherently low. It is inherently decentralized. And we're now we have a bunch of people just figuring out what we can do and they don't have to ask for permission to go. Do it. Ultimately, as you work your way up that Tech adoption. Curve. We talked about earlier, you're going to get to folks who want a certain amount of
Not necessarily centralization, although, in some cases. Yes, but they just want a different user experience because they don't want to do all that work. Right? Like at a certain point, my space just touched on potentially what people wanted, as a social network, but Facebook really nailed the Simplicity of and the timing frankly of being able to share photos, really at the core of it, right? I was at this thing. I took a photo of you, you get an email notification that says hey, I took a photo
View and you want to go see it. And that was the viral Loop that spun up and it was a perfect storm of timing more than anything else. That just got a bunch of people be like, okay I Myspace felt a little, I don't know, but now that the timing was right. And okay, but for everything that's coming. Now, you have an underlying permissionless, nacinda, very technology that is going to stay even as we see it centralized more and more because you're gonna, what's a good? A simple example, this is even
Let's just take custody at a very basic level right? There are still plenty of. I mean, there's there's good reasons to also maintain your own storage and and have cold wallets and all that stuff, but it was on a simple human level. There are a bunch of people who would just rather know coinbase is holding their Bitcoin because they don't want to think about it. They don't want to worry about it. They don't have to God. She's my seat phrase, my ledger where they write their optimizing for user experience and they're willing to trade some of that decentralization. That's
In the technology for some centralization. And so the good news is the underlying technology is itself on ruin abby'll. And so, even as we watch this develop over the next 10, 20 years. We won't see another Disneyland defecation, because the atomic units of money and identity are still owned by individuals. And so I look, I'm not a hardcore crypto Anarchist. I actually again, I, my North Star here. And this is, I think just as a product Builder,
I'll always comes back to user experience. What ends up winning a thousand times. Out of 1,000 is along those lines of a user experience and making something people want. That is the motto of Y, combinator for a reason. And so, what hardens me though is, because this underlying technology is decentralized, even as we start to see people, and as it goes more and more mainstream being willing, to make the trade-offs and saying, like, actually, no, I don't want total permissionless for the, I don't want permission. Listen. This is not a feature for me.
It's a bug. Like, I just I'm fine with that. You still have a fundamental structure that is itself, permissionless. And the builders can always keep building. And that in the same way that markets and you're seeing, you know, Meme stocks are just a reflection of what's already. What's its? The, it's an old system being sort of radically affected by new tools, but the new system has this sort of, you know, baked in
Do it right? Whether it was all the things with defy, whether it's been here now within ft's markets. I'm even just looking at tokens as compensation, right? We're seeing more and more employees even working Fiat. Jobs looking for tokens as a signing bonus. We're going to see more and more people taking multiple gigs getting paid in tokens. What happens when you know, traditionally a start-up founder, you know, we compensate every one of our employees at read it with Reddit, Stocker options, specifically, and eventually RS. Use these
These are not liquid at all, right, there's an inevitable future here with those employees are going to get paid in tokens. What does that do to a world? Where now there's a market available. You can wake up one morning and realize, hey, look at that. Like Elon Musk just tweeted about my company. My tokens have ten. Next I'm going to sell a few of them in, put a down payment on a house. Like that will be a reality. Right? And so
This notion of liquidity is having a tremendous effect on shaping markets on shaping behaviors. And we're seeing it, right? Whether it's game, stop giving me modified whether it's, you know, different tokens popping off. Whether it's all this stuff with n FTS, you're now going to see a scenario where we typically play us out five years, ten years for anyone who's building where your users are actually just as sort of liquid. Because now, you don't actually
Actually own all the keys to the kingdom. Because it's not like, yeah, Google lets you download all of your data and Facebook ostensibly, lets you download all of your data, but the process is cumbersome. It's a pain in the ass. Like it's not, it's not really a feature of it right there deliberately doing that, but now users have all the authority. And you saw this a little bit with Open Sea, like, very, very ingenious approach because it all lives in a public database, right? You can now overnight reward a user base that you
You don't actually have and potentially bring them over to care about your platform, right? That the market of companies of startups, still has not fully processed this new world because it hasn't really it's still in its infancy. Right? But in the same way that financial markets are rapidly going to have to and and are adapting to this liquidity. It's going to happen across every front, even users, and that's rooted in the fact that you will actually own your identity online. You will actually owned those photos, you uploaded, you'll
Actually have the receipts of the time you spent, right? And so to, you know, put it specifically, right. You've got now, the bar is going to be so much higher for platform creators and Builders and web, three to maintain and earn attention and time. And I think that's a good thing. I think it means you really have to earn your users every day. And that's a thing. Like, we would say this, I'd walk around the office. Be like, we got to earn our users today, right?
We have to be shipping features that they want. We have to be creating a great user experience. We have to be, you know, creating community events. We have to be doing things to earn our users everyday, but it was kind of a metaphor because people couldn't, I mean, they could leave, but tomorrow, it will be literal. And, and that's a very exciting New World to be living in because it gives, I think it much more fairly gives the value back to the people who have been creating all of it for so long and I that's a whole nother.
We've barely even started to see it happen yet, but we will and it's going to be pretty exhilarating
watch. Yeah, the way I've explained this concept. Is that everyone on a theory. Amor? Everyone in crypto is always just one transaction away from being somewhere, completely different. Yeah. I hear. You're so close to everything else as being built. And so the ability to migrate is so low that it almost incentivizes it at times. Yes, Alexis. I'm going to ask you the impossible question. I know no one can actually predict the future, but I'm going to ask you to do it. Anyways, there are so many.
Things in web three, we got dowse. We got a tease. We got tokens or got permissionless communities and you're a veteran of much of the internet. And so I'm wondering what you really see as like what's on the horizon. What are these Primitives that were talking about? And not only just with like tokens but also the properties like the permissionless. Ne sand the Community. First aspect of web. 30. Yeah. What do you sing on the horizon as like colliding with web three like where is web? Three really going to wear? The rubber is going to meet the pavement?
That you're seeing that you're hopeful that we build out in the short
term. One thing that really clearly Donna me, over the last couple of years was so if I give someone the chance to sell 10 e, 4N East, whatever one teeth or in Ft Worth one eith, they will be more likely to sell the the one ether, whatever the amount is, and
Non fungibility is actually for our species, a lot more valuable than we realize and is it rational? No, but humans are not rational creatures. And when I think about how we start to build,
Utility in 2nf T's as an underlying technology. I mean, we're still in the again. These are the, the simplest stupidest days of it, right? We're still at geocities here. And as we start to understand more and more utility, whether it is, you know, getting, I mean, we've seen examples of this right, restaurants, using it as exclusive membership, or, you know, hopefully maybe one day at a golf course to get in or you get on the list of different utility that is offline, but then you
thinking about what we can do, even if it's just allowing people access to online, communities, allowing them access to coordinate, and even just have spontaneous meetings, like, there's just
We know that communities already and read it as a great precedent for this, where there is no incentive other than we have a community. We have a culture, you're part of it. We know that those work at scale, massively. Well, and they'll do amazing things together, from raising money for total strangers to getting together offline. We know all this. There's a precedent for that. Seeing the infrastructure gets built up around. Enabling communities in web, three is one of things. I'm most excited about over the next year or two because we're going to start to see more and more people doing
More and more clever things that pushes everyone to be like, oh that was clever. Okay, I'm gonna do some better now and that rate of innovation can happen so much faster. Now thanks to, you know, the internet social media, Outlets that we're all watching. We're all building in public and that's going to increase the rate of innovation. The things I'm betting on are the things that are creating this kind of infrastructure around Community or these communities themselves, right? I'm a pretty out and well-known a polder from pretty early on. I'm very excited to see what happens in the coming months around.
All things board about club. And even that actually, you know, the reason I ate in in like, May, or June, or whenever last year was because they launched with a board like the only the only quote unquote utility but it was novel at the time was that you can visit a part of the website, right? To be able to mess around on the bathroom wall, which was a total omage to our / place which was arrested April, Fool's Day thing. We did with pixels that was collaborative sitting and that you collapse team admitted said as much and I saw this and I'm like, oh cool.
This is like read it but now it's shit. I'm in. And, and again, I'm not this. I don't need to be the smartest guy in the room. I just need to be looking for things that I know worked 10 years ago when there was no real ownership involved and as I'm seeing this stuff, starts to progress. I just can't help but feel like we will see real utility evolved will see technologies that will make it even more valuable to either.
Own and of teas with robust communities or maybe find ways to access and get in and and Tusa further democratize it, right. It doesn't it doesn't help if you just create a bunch of exclusive communities that only a few people can be a part of when there's, you know, millions and millions and millions billions of people on this planet. And so, that's obviously going to have to find ways to scale. I'm excited to see the stuff that does that, because this connective tissue is
It's so strong. It's so incredibly strong. And again, if we know it works without real ownership, then by adding that really important element. It should grow, even faster, and even stronger. And then you start imagining ways for more and more on-ramps to exist. This is probably another big area whether I'm going to act Lolly because I was excited to see more people get into Bitcoin just from shopping online, you just passively
Just like with honey. Except in Bitcoin, you save money on buying things you normally buy online and for folks, who would never even consider ever opening an investment account on coinbase. You're now a bit coin holder and you're now creating wallets for a whole hell of a lot of people who will probably there at the other end of that adoption curve. When it comes to investing in crypto there now, crypto holders there now wallet holders and the on ramps are the other really exciting area for me because kryptos
Still a very male-dominated industry. We have again long-term greedy incentives to bring more women into web 3. Because if we just look at the data from web to women outperform on social media, they out, consume it, they out create it, right? The engagement numbers, the things that we need in order to get web 3 into the mainstream will only happen with women. And so I'm particularly excited about that. As another on-ramp in terms of things will be investing in and things that will be spending.
Time. It was 776 because it's it has to happen. And the sooner it happens, the better it is for all of us.
So Alexis with 776. I know it's over
350 million dollars or something and assets under management 750 but you know, it's 750 us now 750. It's been a busy year. Wow
it is this. So is this all going to be deployed in like she that
was probably. Yeah, that's funny. I'm sure that was what it was up until a few weeks ago. Yeah.
Sorry. Yeah, it's just it keeps going up. Are you mean?
Only focusing this towards crypto or is like Krypton web 3s that just a portion of the portfolio. Notice you let around in Rainbow
wallet. Yes, absolutely fantastic. Delightful and variables and ft wallet
that I think is everything you've talked about which is like making these are experience in web three, actually good, but how much of the fund is allocated towards web 3 versus other areas.
It's not specific. I mean, it's not like red line in but a majority of the companies were going to invest in our web 3. We still invested.
A reusable rocket company called Stoke. So we're doing Space Tag. We're doing climate Tech. We're doing food, Tech. We're doing some boring, you know, traditional software businesses, SAS businesses to, but a little over majority, is going to be crypto. That's awesome. What else you have to unchain? I notice you just launched a proof project. I'm Grails. What is this about? I loved seeing your community asked about that. Yeah, my old arch nemesis CEO, Kevin Rose. We've become Pals over the last couple years and he's been so so spot-on with.
With nft art culture and he launched this project called proof. It's a community of, you know, some artists but also curators went out. And he asked me to be a part of this drop where they it was brilliant. Like they brought 20 artists. Well, 19 amazing artists and me together didn't tell anyone who made the art and simply gave the opportunity for all these proof members to mince, which I think was one or two or depending on how many passes.
I had so they can mince artwork for themselves, but not know who the artist is. And a lot of the artists were encouraged to sort of hide their identity in the art. So that people were buying the art based solely on The Vibes. Like, did they like the art? And then there was a big reveal and it was amazing. I mean, the you had the really the who's, who that one that Proto graph from larvae Labs, is like the original. How cool honk. It's like the OG Punk code. So there's a bunch of amazing stuff. And so I did my first ever and if to our
it because it was a pretty amazing opportunity and I was like, all right, I can dust off the old illustrator. That's a photo that my wife took at me in Olympia and I I'm really in a low poly art for the last year or so. And so I just decided to make this. My first, I did a lot of new Doodles over the years. Our Reddit mascot. I've done hundreds of those. This is my first time doing low poly. Our potatoes is fun. And yeah, I was happier. Your community was asking about, I might have to, might have to put out some more more at work. They are excited about
We've had Kevin on the podcast but before. So people are familiar with what's going on there. It's really cool. You guys are teaming up on some of the stuff. I guess. As we
draw to a close Alexis. This has been
super insightful for us, you know, thank you very much.
Kind of the final question for me is there's been an increasing amount of pessimism. I think about the internet. Like, some people say, the internet's best years are behind us, right. We have like social media toxicity. This feeling of being preyed upon by large tech companies, all of these.
Things. But I think you're optimistic about the future of the internet. Give us the case for why we should be optimistic about the future of the internet
because we have to be because if we're pessimistic we can't possibly build the better internet that we want. I think the criticisms about social media are very valid, very valid. I think we we have an opportunity now to remove mmm.
To reimagine that they like, we basically saw one version, we saw one time line. And so we've learned how to build a lot of stuff. We have a blueprint for how things can work. And now we get to build another timeline taking those lessons, and reimagining a lot of those Technologies now with ownership and with decentralization at its core. And I think the point, you know, for me personally and and folks know how I resigned from the from the red important in protest. Last for a little over a year ago.
I think we we get a chance now to not have a centralized platform making decisions that provide reach to specific ideas and not others. And I think this is an important distinction. Because first off, freedom of reach is nowhere in our Constitution. And, and when you have a centralized platform
Orm putting something out to millions and millions of people. It's a tacit endorsement, right? Having looking scrolling through a feed and seeing, you know, a look, my uncle just got a new job and I look how cute my niece is. And oh like this vaccine is putting a microchip into my brain, like that context matters because that context is normalizing stuff and providing reach tremendous reach weaponized reach.
That is not something that's a founding principle of our democracy and and is creating really harmful impacts on our society. And so what I like about this, I hope I really hope it'll be a renaissance with web 30 is I know those toxic parts of our society are still going to be there. They're always going to be there. They have always been there. They will continue to be there, but we will not be Reliant or victim to a handful of platforms making.
Visions or not, making decisions about what belongs and what doesn't. And, and I actually think we're all going to be better off for it because it's going to be a chance to reset. And I don't know, we'll see. We actually got a lot of work to do in this country to help normalize things. But from a technological standpoint from an internet standpoint, I do think the internet's best years are ahead of it. And I really do believe that in 50 years. We will look back on web to as being a blip as being a
Sort of an arents thread in the timeline where, you know, we made some mistakes and now we we got to spend the next few decades. Hopefully writing them well said opportunity reset the best years of the internet are still ahead. Alexis Ohanian. Thank you so much for joining us on Bank. Let's just as a pleasure my friend. Thanks, Ryan and David. Thank you guys.
This is cool, action items for you guys. Thankless Nation. A couple of them for you. First, learn more about 776 lat.
Is Alexis VC firm that you can check out number to check out Alexis, is Art
on proof. Collectible include a link to the Tweet
thread where that was launched, pretty
cool and let me know what you think. Yeah, and the third thing is Go
download the rainbow wallet. We just talked about it and it is really a must have if you're into NFC is absolutely fantastic, of course guys, wrist and disclaimers. None of this has been Financial advice. It never is. Nope. Bitcoin is risky. So is eith so is defy. All this stuff is risky. You can lose what you put in there. Still.
The rough edges as we talked about, but we are headed west. This is the frontier. It's not for everyone, but we're
glad you're with us on the bank list Journey. Thanks a
lot.
