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Hi, I'm Kara Swisher editor-at-large of recode. You may know me as someone who put all my money into Bitcoin a couple years ago. And that's why I have to do this podcast until the year 2095. But in my spare time, I'm just a reporter and you're listening to recode decode a podcast about power change. And the people you need to know around the tech and media industries were part of the VOX media podcast Network today in the red chair is Ben mezrich the writer of several best-selling books including The Accidental billionaires, which is about Mark Zuckerberg and was adapted into the movie The
Social network band's latest book is called Bitcoin billionaires a true story of Genius betrayal and Redemption and it focuses on how Zuckerberg is former enemies Tyler and Cameron Winklevoss the Winklevoss. I sought redemption in cryptocurrency been welcome to Rico decode. No, thank you so much. I wanted to interview, you know, I have lots of stories around the social network and accidental billionaires, which I love that book. You've written lots of books around various. I have the medical and I
can't believe we haven't set down so now
yeah, but you know, it's a good time. It's perfect. So I want to
Talk about the Bitcoin book but also accidental billionaires and sort of years later. Looks like you were right. I think we got Zuckerberg at Zuckerberg right for sure. So let's talk a little bit about your background people get a sense of who you are. You've written lots of books and one of them was here at Harvard, right? Is there a
mighty right a mighty so I've written 20 books at this point with sounds like a lot but people really read only two of them, but I have written a lot of books and the first successful book. I wrote was called Bringing Down the House about the MIT blackjack team, right?
Was made into the movie 21. So yeah, I've always written kind of true stories written like Thrillers about young people doing crazy
things. Why did you intern that? First one?
So I was a terrific. Yeah. I was a fiction writer. I was right. I wrote for the X Files. I used to write sort of medical Thrillers, but unsuccessful ones and I was sort of wandering around looking for a story and there was a local bar here in Boston that I used to hang out at and there was this group of MIT kids and they had tons of money and it was all in hundred dollar bills and I couldn't figure out
out why they had all these hundred dollar bills because you don't see those in Boston for me much and I started going to Vegas with them. And so I fell into journalism. I didn't intend to be a nonfiction writer and then I joined the Blackjack team to write that story. And so that became my first nonfiction book and then my first best seller and so that shifted my career from writing sort of sci-fi thriller is to writing
nonsense. So how did you get to mark because you're there early you really were was I had started covering him a maybe around that are before
Great, but everyone was aware of Facebook, but it wasn't a big company. No, don't remember when it wasn't a big kind of it really wasn't it was I met him very early on in his tenure
there. Yeah. I mean the way it happened for me and was out of the blue. I got an email from a senior at Harvard and this had to be two thousand and seven or eight so early really early and he said my best friend founded Facebook and no one's ever heard of him and it wasn't Mark. So I'd heard of a Mark Zuckerberg, but nobody else and I went out for a
Drink in Boston at a bar called Barton and in walked Eduardo Saverin Eduardo had never spoken to anybody else right and started the conversation by saying Mark Zuckerberg fucked me. That was the opening and so since I was at that point of journalists, I said tell me more and he proceeded to tell me the story of these two kids who had met an underground Jewish fraternity who couldn't meet girls and you know, it was all Eduardo's point of view and how Market hacked and made facemash and so the whole story that ends up the social network Eduardo proceeded to tell me
This crazy story and I found out years later. It was this Machiavellian move because he was in the midst of his lawsuit right to get Facebook to settle
with Him and acknowledge his co-founders that's co-founder, but the money was really the deal right and so out of it. I thought
this was a great story. He never really intended for me to write a book. I wrote a book proposal was a 14-point what
appealed to you? I want to understand what because I mean, we all covered him and it was it was one of the many there was my space which was sort of doing really well. There was there was a whole bunch of them, right?
Time well what really appealed to me was two things one. There was The Shakespearean drama between two best friends and wardo and Mark and Eduardo had put up the thousand dollars, which was the greatest investment in the history of the world. The time water was a wealthy
guy. Yeah, it was a kid from a rich family
from Brazil and he had been two kids in a dorm room who had come up with this story and then I found the Winklevoss twins. So basically after talking to Eduardo, I went on Facebook and I Facebook the Winklevoss Twins and I started meeting with them and they started handing me these
All documents because they were in the midst of their own lawsuit, right? And there was this incredible drama. They're not just Eduardo and Mark two friends being torn apart. But also the Winklevoss twins who claim that their idea had been stolen and they were the archetype 80s bad guys. I mean they were the guys in the skeleton costumes Chasing The Karate Kid around the gym. And meanwhile, there was the Zuckerberg who was at the time this revolutionary who was attempting to change the world to fit Mark Zuckerberg. So my thesis which has been
You'd with many times by Mark was that these were kids who were not social stars who were not good at meeting girls who were trying to reorder the social world around the internet and Myspace had attempted this in a way Friendster had attempted it but this was different. This was personal. This was your own profile who you were and meeting people poking people at the time and I was really turned on by that I mean that was this drama and I have to say, you know, the first person I sent it.
I called my mom and I was like, this is a store and she goes No One's Gonna care about Facebook. And then I said it to Kevin Spacey because at the time I had been doing 21 with him and their first reaction was no one's going to watch a movie about Facebook. So initially, it wasn't this idea. This was going to be this huge thing
was little was gaining on.
Yeah, and you were very early in this to I mean you were talking to Mark before Mark became marching, right? And and and so it was very early but I
saw they see time for them. They were a very small office in Palo Alto right on University Avenue, and you know, there was
It was a sort of a hot and cold running executive team. They just kept changing and there were lots of funny things going on with some other engineers and it was your typical startup, but it certainly wasn't leading and Myspace certainly had most of the attention at the time and then there was Friendster before that obviously in a bunch of social there was lots and Google had Orchid and everything else. It was entirely clear that Facebook was going to Prevail until really they got the Microsoft investigate
that I came a big difference and and you know, but what I saw was a sea change in the way
World going on. I really did believe and I was sold on it as well that the idea that this was the origins of something that was going to change all of our Lives. I felt that from the very minute I met Eduardo and he started to tell me this story and so I was interested in the drama of it from a thriller Hollywood point of view, but I was also interested it. I try and tell origin stories. I mean, that's what I've tried to do. My whole career is I won't write a story unless I think this is the next thing, you know, I was a big fan of Michael Crichton I wanted to do what he did. There is always seem to
write something and suddenly we were all talking about
it, right? So that's what it is. And then you introduce obviously Sean
Parker. So I got to know Sean interesting enough Sean's mom was a fan of my Vegas story and had told him he should talk to me. So I went out to California and these people are not shy. All right. It's been a couple days we should watch this is amazing. And so Sean was a major source the Winklevoss Twins were a major source and Eduardo was a major source. And then that was where I started now Mark would not talk to me, right, you know, I spent a year trying to talk to Mark I would eventually they said I could send them.
Questions and that kind of thing and they never responded but it all
hasn't seen Cheryl Amber to yeah, Bree Bree Cheryl,
but the way it had all happened was so I had written this book proposal. It leaked onto Gawker so gawker.com printed my whole book proposal and that day Facebook settled with Eduardo for what became five billion dollars. And if you read the settlement agreement, it says he may never speak to Ben mezrich again because we were trying to cut off the book, right? So Eduardo cut off all contact with me sent me a legal restraining order. It's a lot of money broke up with
His girlfriend who was my wife's best friend and he moved to Singapore. Yeah, five billion dollars. It's a lot. Nobody would talk to me again for five billion dollars. I get it. I might so that was the moment also. Yeah, Aaron Sorkin saw it and called and said he wanted to write it as his next movie and David Fincher saw it and said he wanted to direct it as a snake's movie and so it all kind of exploded overnight and at that point I had to write the book. So I locked myself in a different kind of
book. It wasn't exactly sort of there's been a lot of Facebook books since then. It wasn't sort of this happened. Then this happening with somebody so much more. Well, I write
Thrillers so my goal
Is to tell a true story but write it in a cinematic Thriller ask way and people have been you know have not have had problems with it. I mean, there's definitely controversy in the way I write nonfiction, but I felt it was a very true telling of that year now Mark will disagree but I believe Eduardo and she write in disagreement with you. Well when the book came out, he called me the Jackie Collins of Silicon Valley and he was not very happy with me. He definitely said that you know, it wasn't about
Getting girls that he had a girl. This is true. Well, I disagree in this
push back on. You know, I like to
push back because here's my feeling about this. So he didn't actually get serious with her until the end of the sequence that takes place in The Social Network. Okay in the beginning of the social network the idea of they were getting groupies in the in the bathroom. That's all from Eduardo and our duardo was there and there were other people who I spoke to were also there it wasn't like he wasn't dating someone from the very beginning but I understand but my point wasn't that he was out trying.
To get laid with Facebook. The idea was this was a social order. He was not the Winklevoss twins right truly was he had you know,
because I've been at parties with him where people have done that to him or when he at the beginning right after he got the big and billion dollar investment, but my cousin got was what it was. We were departing oddly enough. It was a Peter thiel's house and I was like, oh girls are going to come up to you and he there were 20 girls that came up to him and he could have cared less. I like he and he's like, why would they do that? And I'm like, well, you've billion dollars, isn't it sir?
Certainly, not your you know, your Suave manners here. It's going on and it was interesting. I think motivation for him is very different than I think that's what he did have a problem with that a lot and talked about a lot because it isn't his
motivation. But the way you just described is exactly right out of the social network. I mean that's exactly how he would have acted in that movie. I can see Jesse Eisenberg acting like that. So it wasn't like I talked more than Mark does. Yeah, absolutely true. But way too many idea isn't that like the right? You're exactly right? It's not that he was going to parties and now I've got Facebook and now I'm going to meet girls it was this is the social world.
That works for a guy like him and Eduardo. These are geeky guys who hung out on their computer most of the time who wanted to live online. They believe the world is a better place. If it's this Village connections, right? It's the Facebook was supposed to be the
spirit. Very commanding person is always been that way. He's not like a shy geek. He's not I wouldn't say he's shy he's not he's changed in the way that he's able to communicate much better than it used to right and he's practiced at it. You could feel he changed dramatically. I mean from when
you first interviewed him and he's sweating through his hoodie. Yeah.
Who he is today change these are fallible. That's a
dramatic. Yeah, I still think he has the same mentality. But what was interesting what I want to get to in this people have quibbles with your thing. You got him right at the heart. I think which was this incredibly aggressive person with a point of view. That was so strong that overwhelmed everybody else and it was a point of view about connecting the world where there could be no mistakes, right because his vision was so great.
Right? He's a megalomaniacal and he believes when he does something and
Disagree with it we're wrong and he continues that path until any you know, what he's been proven right over and over again. I mean everyone says I'm going to leave Facebook and more people join Facebook. So in some ways he's been validated in his views that he's right in everybody's wrong. But this of course is a dangerous personality when you're running a company that's in all of our Lives all the
time. I think he also is the element of that. He doesn't think he's big that's the you know, the power that I've never seen someone push away power so much say, oh why it's the community it was it.
And have all the power that's what I always found fascinating. Is that like we all have to decide together. I'm like, well, let's all have a vote then right rise we go. You have one you have one of the right man one vote and and it's interesting you did get that at the beginning of he wanted the power of everything right? I don't think that was pushed on by tlr anybody
else. No. No, that was him. I mean that was him. I think understood I think in a lot of ways the social network gets these characters, correct? It gets Sean Parker, right? I think it gets it gets. Oh, yeah.
Eduardo real fur. You know, it definitely got Mark right? I think that's it. I think it's the Winklevoss twins, which now, I would say we got wrong and we'll get to that. Yeah, the movie comes
out. I remember right before it premiered. He was very upset. That's that's the sweating interview. That's when that happens. Right? One of the things he said to me that I thought I did have some sympathy for him. He goes. This is what people are going to keep going to see this and think I'm that person and I'm not that person and I was like, oh, it's a movie. What do you care? You're also Mark Zuckerberg you get to have a bit like what do you care? And it was an interesting conversation.
Isolation because he that really bothered him that this would be the version of him that would go down in
history. And you know what? I personally believe this last night was the greatest thing that ever happened to Mark Zuckerberg and tell me why that I'll tell you a number reasons. First of all, if you remember the sequence of what Mark doesn't think that the way he reacted to the Social Network where first he went after it and then he embraced it. He went on seven alive. He gave a hundred million dollars to the newick school system or Trend school system. I forget he was on the cover of Time Magazine it created this mythology about face.
Book that changed Facebook page and of a favor an enormous way. I don't think the IPO would have been the IPO without the social network. We wouldn't be talking about. I mean at the time people were telling me that some large percentage of applications to Harvard had stories in them about the head watch The Social Network and it made them want to go to Harvard. Oh, they changed a generation of people of how they thought about Silicon Valley and Entrepreneurship. And so For Better or For Worse it created The Legend of Mark Zuckerberg. I mean Jesse Eisenberg is more Zuckerberg then.
Like a burger. Yeah and Justin Timberlake is more Sean Parker than Sean Parker. So he was right in that this is how everyone is going to remember him. But I think it's better for him that everyone remembers him as Jesse
Eisenberg. It is true. It's a really was a lovable nerd people you
love Jesse Eisenberg. It wasn't like hatred. I think he's way worse now because of what he's doing in reality the perception of
Mark now is incredibly negative when he didn't embrace it because he was like, I'm not going around like come to the premiere with me. I was invited you are the reason behind that.
No, not at all. Took him awhile. I think that's Cheryl and others worked on it. But you know, I was like make a joke of it shoe up meet Jesse Eisenberg and go look like me like do things like control the NIT. I was like control the narrative because we do it but he was you know, I think it was just vexing that he didn't have control of the
name. Absolutely. And that's the reason he didn't talk to me as well. And because I can control what I would write. I think you made a big mistake by not seeing I'm just talking to me because the reality is the way I write my books. I mean it Janet Maslin is one of calls me the Billionaire's best friend. I I worship my characters I'll
I love my character. Yeah, and I turn them into Heroes think that's my
goal. I think if I were kind of goofy in that
movie, so in the movie of the wink of the Winklevoss twins in that movie where the alpha males they were the bad guys in an 80s movie. They were the dumb jocks
when I first met them. That way I
met them at a hotel room and when they walked into the room, they reminded me of everybody who chased me around high school and I was hiding in a locker from the Winklevoss twins because I was a little nerd as well. And so a lot of that has to do with how I wrote Oksana billionaires. A lot of it has to do with how Aaron Sorkin wrote The Social Network and a lot of has to do with our
Hammer and all these are we to Glory played the Winklevoss twins, but they really were this opposite of Zuckerberg. I mean you see them in person. It's a spectacular opposition of people but I got to know them after the fact and discovered much more about them. So when I wrote accent and billionaires, I knew very little about them beyond their personas and their anger towards Zuckerberg. Yeah.
They look like dumb jocks real. I mean they come
across in a very very intimidating as very large blond privileged people.
From this billionaire Connecticut family and so yes, so that was an unfair portrayal. I feel like in some ways. I think it works the meme aspect of it is amazing. And I think there is this juxtaposition going on, but the reality of them is much different. I mean, they're incredibly smart guys. They speak multiple languages to become an Olympic athletes. You can't just be a dumb jock. I mean the amount they put into it and the fact that they became part of this Bitcoin Revolution is Not an Accident. You don't get struck by lightning twice, you know, it's very unlikely.
Who has second acts like this, right which is why I frame the whole book like The Count of Monte Cristo where you you know, it's like they disappeared in suddenly ride back into town with their Millions. There's more going on there than people who
talk about the reason you were focused on bitcoin because Bitcoin has gone up and down and up and down and it's got it sort of reminds you of the early internet time. There's all these sort of con men and
I mean, it's it comes from a shady place. It comes from Shady but you know anarchistic libertarian crazies is the one who started Bitcoin right? I never had any interest in Bitcoin. I think the word blockchain
Is the worst word ever invented it makes me nauseous. That's just a horrible concept. I'm not a math guy. I was had no interest in Bitcoin and then a year and a half ago or two years ago. I read this headline the New York Times that said the Winklevoss Twins were the first Bitcoin billionaires. And the reason that made me interested was because I saw them as everyone else saw them. I wrote the book. That was a social network. They were the dumb jocks the big blonde guys. How could they possibly be billionaires in their own? Right? Right. And so I called them up out of the blue and
They weren't angry with me happily or maybe a little but not so bad went out to New York and met with them again and I saw them in this new role. They were pushing crypto, but they really really believed and they proceeded to tell me why they believed and it changed my view of what Bitcoin is. I understood that criminals are using it to buy drugs. I understood that it the price was just the same thing. But the idea behind it is sort of the future of money. It really turned me on and it wasn't about the math necessary.
Ali but it was about the twins about the guys in suits who Larry Summers throws out of his office are suddenly behind this weird Revolution and that seems strange their market makers rate and it you know, they own Gemini they own cryptocurrency now, so it was this juxtaposition of the guys you didn't expect with all these libertarian anarchists in the Roger Bears of the world and these kind of crazy personalities. That's what really got me interested in
it in the next section. We talk a little bit more of the specifics of where Bitcoin is right now, but what got them into it. What from your
yeah.
So what happened was so they settled with Mark Zuckerberg and has money and the book the way the Bitcoin billionaire is opens is the settlement was kind of an insane situation. So basically Mark was pushing back pushing back pushing back. They were trying to get him to settle because they really believe he stole their idea and finally Cameron says to Mark's lawyers. We're all just a bunch of kids who went to college together. Let's just all sit down in a room and talk it out. No lawyers. Let's just sit down. So they bring this presentation to Mark and marks lawyers come back to the
Twins and say, you know what he has some concerns and it turns out he was afraid they were going to beat him up. And so he said the only way I'll meet with you lll meet with one of you and they met in a glass room in the center of a law firm and all the lawyer sat in a ring around this room. This is true. This is what happened Cameron goes into the room with Mark and they have a conversation. They come out of the conversation and Mark settles with them for 65 million dollars. They didn't like the settlement so they took it in stock which ended up being a brilliant.
Thing because after the IPO, it became worth hundreds of millions of dollars and they decided to become Silicon Valley investors. So they went out to Silicon Valley and tried to invest and nobody would take their money. I remember that because everyone's end game is to sell the Facebook and Mark does not like them so nobody wanted to touch their money so they went to Ibiza to party and they were on the beach in Ibiza, right? That's what you do. Right and and they were hanging out on the beach when is strange guy came up to them and said you guys are the Winklevoss I write and having seen them in the movie and they said yes, and they said
Have you ever heard about Bitcoin and they had not they had flown to Ibiza and had beaten their money there. So they had tried to book a villa in Ibiza and had gotten there and their money hadn't arrived yet because of the way money transfers work. And so it was this moment when someone was pitching to them on this instant cryptocurrency and they were having financial problems because they had gotten there before their money that kind of dawned on them that maybe there's something here and I think it was Cameron. It might have been Tyler who said this is either the next big
It's bullshit. But that for them is where their Journey started looking
for it. Okay, when we get back we talk more about that metrics recent book Bitcoin billionaires a little more about Facebook. We're here on Rico decode for every musician. There's that one song that changed everything how they live who they meet how they act what they will become in season 2 of the jump acclaimed frontwoman Shirley Manson from garbage will sit down with some of the most influential musicians of the industry and ask them about that.
That one song including that Beringer of the national George Clinton Ian see Brittany Howard of Alabama Shakes Liz Phair Sharon Van Etten and more listen to the podcast to hear some of their refreshing unexpected inspiring and formative and surprising answers and catch up on season one to hear Shirley's conversation with artists such as Neko Case Esperanza Spalding Big Boy Dave one Courtney Love, Karen. Oh and Mike. Hey dries from perfume Genius if the jump is an original podcast from MailChimp.
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We're here with Ben mezrich his the author of accidental billionaires was about the beginnings of Facebook his new book. His new book is called Bitcoin billionaires is about the Winklevoss the twins who settled with Mark and moved into Bitcoin talk about how how important the winklevosses role as because it really has been in yeah
in Bitcoin. I think it's been enormous.
So a Bitcoin explain for
those. Yeah. I don't know where Bitcoin area code. Yes. So Bitcoin is digital money. It's money that I can send directly to you write a currency or a store of value.
Depending on what you believe that I can send to you instantly via my phone or computer the way you send a text or an email. There's no middle man. There's no Bank between us there's no government between us so it's different than venmo or PayPal. It's something that I could send a dollar to someone in India instantly over the piping of the internet and so it's very intriguing to people who don't believe that there should be government's behind money who don't believe that there should be a bank in between me and you when I send you a
doll what is currency but a trusted really
exactly
and so the value of Bitcoin is entirely and how much we believe it's worth. It's very similar to gold in that respect because gold is only worth what we agree.
It's when there's only a limited amount of
it and it's limited to exactly 21 million coins and it was started by this crazy mysterious guy calling himself Satoshi Nakamoto who launched it on the world and in 2029 2010 on a white paper on the internet and then vanished never to be heard from again, and this person is probably not Japanese. Probably not just one person. I
get an email from a different one every week.
I'm sure they come to you.
The time to say they're cytosine yakamoto. And and whoever it is he's gone is either dead or in jail or whatever. But anyways, once it got started it really picked up after the country of Cyprus went bankrupt. This is the moment for Bitcoin because at the time Bitcoin was in the tens of dollars and then Cyprus went bankrupt and the government that night to solve their bankruptcy problems went to everyone's bank accounts and took 50% of your money. If you had over a hundred thousand Euros and all of these rich people in Cyprus realized this can
open a bank can just take your money a government can just take your money and they wanted a form of money that couldn't just disappear overnight interestingly enough. So they went into Bitcoin the twins bought in at around seven
dollars a coin. Do you know I had that coin I lost it. Did you have I did a story because what's his name whence this casares? I was doing a story on him right at the beginning and he's like try it out and I bought 10 and I put them on a hard
drive and Bitcoin and we lost the hard drive. So they say something like a full ten percent of Bitcoins gone, right?
I don't know where it is $100,000, right? Is that correct?
Right now it's at what today depends on what day we're but it's about 80 to $100,000.
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, it's crazy.
Right. So the twins bought 200,000 big coin, they bought one percent of a hundred dollars on it that's been hundred dollars and you made ten Grand and then you lost 10 grand. Oh, I don't know where it is. Known underground Hunter Grant right a hundred grand.
Yeah somewhere somewhere. It's in a garbage
somewhere all these people I know were just I don't like Bitcoin exploited. Everyone's like looking for their old hard drives
and
Go through them. Every I boxes of them said no, you
should look because you were in that world. You probably do it. There were used to be websites called faucets. You would go to yeah, but they were just poor Bitcoin into your computer about it and then moved along. Yeah, whatever. You could be a billionaire. Yeah, right. Okay sure. So the twins bought one percent of all of it. Yeah, but two hundred thousand coins and then they became Bitcoin proselytizers right went around the world. So investing in tools and everything, they invested in bitinstant, which was by Charlie shrem this another big character in the story was 18 year old kid living in his mother's basement.
Who was in the Syrian Jewish Community? He was in this very kind of restricted world and his Escape was the internet. He discovered Bitcoin early started a company where you could buy Bitcoin because at the time it was very hard to buy big and store it. Yeah, you had to buy it from these Shady sites in the middle of nowhere. So he created an american-based company in the Twins were his first or second investors. So the twins vested 1.5 million in his company Roger ver put up the other money and he's another great character. Who's this kind of crazy anarchistic?
Libertarian who was in jail for a number of years and then fled the country and lives in Japan and was known as Bitcoin Jesus. So these were sort of the investors in bitinstant. So the twins invested in this company and began traveling the world pushing this new form of money, but what's interesting about them is they became sort of this liaison to the Wall Street world because they're the guys in suits even though they were the bad guys in The Social Network. They came with assist you of respectability. They weren't the libertarian anarchists on Silk Road buying drugs
a lot of company like
There was Bunches of people suddenly trying like wences and
people started to move into it. And you're absolutely right and
it was storage a lot of it was creating a market for it. And then there were other coins
other. They're all these other coins and trying to figure out some of them were respectable. Some of them were just fly by night. It was a crazy time on what the twins I think brought to the table was this idea that it should be regulated that it should be part of the financial system, which at the time was very much controversial in that Community right is a lot of people think maybe you want to use it right there.
I want to use it to not pay taxes. Some people want to use it to beat, you know to not have to be involved with
government or things like just like the inner the good concept behind it is that currency is badly done for most people and most people across the globe do not have an availability their unbanked and they don't have a currency that's stable and could disappear unlike the United States. Right? And so the concept behind it is actually a very optimistic one just like the internet like just think it's a free social
media is very similar to Faith what Facebook promised to be
They give you the power over your own world over your own wallet the same way Facebook was supposed to be over your own profile your own life your own data. So the idea is you don't need a bank. You don't need a government. You just need you know, your little electronic wallet and you can walk into a store and buy something and one of
the interesting parts so is the difficulties of doing that just like that how they had cut up all their yeah. What is it called Sun?
Yeah, so you get your hash table. So when you buy Bitcoin you get this string of numbers and that is your Bitcoin. So security becomes a really big part of this whole thing.
NG so what the twins do which is kind of crazy as they printed it up on little pieces of paper and then they cut the paper into little pieces and they filled backpack with it and they went across the middle of the country and got safe-deposit boxes all need a little Midwest Banks and would fill them with these pieces of paper. So there are billions and Bitcoin is spread over all these Midwestern banks that have no idea. They have more money in a safety deposit box and they have in their entire bank and that's the way they keep it secure then they get back to New York and they put on goggles and guts
Hammers and they smashed the computers that they had downloaded their hash on they smashed the routers They smash the printers so that nobody could steal or sterile them, right? That's the yeah. I mean you definitely Bitcoin has interesting security issues because it's like carrying a safe of gold around with you all the time, right? If it's on your phone, you could have millions of dollars on your phone. And so, you know, there have been kidnappings there have been things like that. I know people who keep it on a ring they have their Bitcoin hash on a ring.
Or they tattoo it on their
body things like that. If I've been people get stoned bread. Garlic has used to work for Yahoo! Just like an executive at Yahoo! That became CEO of Ripple and now he's got bodyguards everything. Yeah. I mean it's a little scary because if people
think you have Bitcoin, you know, once they take your Bitcoin, they have your Bitcoin, it's not like, you know, you can trace it or get it back is like gold. Yeah. It's very much
like oh, where is it going to go from here? So they're yeah, what are they doing now? Because the price goes up and down people. Yeah, but price is crazy very to Lippy right? Well, here's the
thing about Bitcoin. The price isn't necessarily the best way to view.
Bitcoin or cryptocurrency is going it's all the infrastructure being built around at all. The companies around it. I personally believe that Bitcoin is going more like gold. It's not going to be a cryptocurrency that we use to buy things every day because the price is so
volatile get to Libra in a
second. Right and we can't but the but the idea of it as a store of value of a way of hiding your money away from the Troubles of the world. I think Bitcoin has an important place. They're like gold like it's like gold it's like gold but better because it's gold that I can carry around in my phone that I can transfer instantly. That's liquid. It's Liquid Gold
old which I think is it makes it very valuable. So I see Bitcoin continuing and going up from here. Now. I'm not a guy who recommends anything. I owned pets.com and Worldcom every stock I've ever bought is got to get here. Okay. Now the right writers and came back real real. Yeah, but I'm not a financial person in any way shape or form, but I know the twins believe it's going to be a quarter million dollars a coin one day. I think there's a lot of people who believe very strongly in it and I see the value in it. And so I do believe that you know, it's part of our
future in a way.
Generate wealth will talk a little bit quickly about the other coins. There are
right. Well, there's lots of coins. I mean, there's Ripple there's all these other coins out there. The question is what's going to be the coin that we're going to use right? And so Libre was an attempt at that. I think okay, we'll get to that but the idea of a coin that we're going to use. I personally believe it will be probably a stable coin will be a coin that's tied to other other fiat currency because that's something we can all understand instantly, you know, it's not going to be something successful in my opinion till people like my parents are going to use it.
Isn't the dollar Bitcoin will the dollar about it like dollars only issue is that it's
American Ryan and I think that level currency now it is and it isn't what's going to happen in 20 years. You know, where is China going? What's really going to be the Global Currency 20 years from now. Is it going to be the dollar? I mean, there's no reason to believe right now that our economy is going to be the biggest I doing now that are there so they run a company called Gemini, which is a crypto exchange where you can buy and sell currency and the difference between their exchange and other exchanges is it's, New York.
Raised that it's at some levels guaranteed by the New York Financial system. Their goal is to have it completely regulated in a way that you feel safe. Just like you put your money not just because they're attempting to do an ETF. I mean, we're trying to do that for a while and get controverse. Right and they're getting into these Nifty tokens, which you know, I don't understand what it is, but I think it's a some form of objects. You can buy are the same way people by trading cards and things like that, but I think for them Bitcoin and and being the Bitcoin,
Exchange or the exchange for all these different cryptos is their future they believe this is a big part of our world going forward. And so I think Gemini, you know became something very big. It's grown. I know if you walk in there it's insane you walk in and it's like three floors in the way. They make money as an exchange. So just like, you know, the big the big exchanges are worth billions of dollars now because of the amount of money that's traded through these
exchanges. They get a fee on a partial. Yeah, there's a
fee and then then there's their Bitcoins, you know, they still have as far as I know to
Thousand Bitcoin. I mean, they haven't dumped it. They believe very strongly in it. So they've got a fully in almost two billion dollars in Bitcoin holder. They say eight odl whole dollars. Yeah. Hold on for dear life. Yeah, so they are holders and they're also running the big exchange. I think Gemini is on its way to being the biggest
exchange. All right, when we get back we'll talk about where it's going further with Libra and other things Mark Zuckerberg is back in the winklevosses faces. We're talking here with Ben mezrich. He's the author of Bitcoin billionaire. He's also the author of The Accidental billionaires
There's which was about Facebook. This is about the Winklevoss Twins and also about Bitcoin changes in currency will be back after this
break.
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We're here with Ben mezrich. He's the author of Bitcoin billionaire. He was also the author of the book that became the social network The Accidental billionaires. So now Facebook is into it with with
Libra. Yeah. So this is really crazy. Yeah, Jesus is where it gets crazy. Yeah, I truly believe that the Winklevoss Twins and Mark Zuckerberg her locked in this crazy battle and will be forever. I believe they wake up with anger towards Mark every day because they feel he stole Facebook and he wakes up every day thinking about that. But my proof of that is Libra. How do you Lon
A coin a crypto coin and called it Libra after your mortal. Enemy is launched something called Gemini. Yeah can't be a coincidence actually got into a Twitter war with David Marcus over this house very much disagreed with me and said he came up with the name Libra and I said well, yeah, but when you pitched it to Mark did it not dawn on him that this would look a little weird. So Mark attempted or as still attempting Market picks score will go something called Libra which is a stable coin, which means it's a cryptocurrency but tied to the dollar
and the yen.
Is to be used on
Facebook the water plan. The idea is everyone was a Facebook account will suddenly have a bank account will have a crypto account an electronic wallet and you can buy and sell things with Libre dollars and to do this. He got a whole bunch of internet people together heads of all these big companies to be on the board or whatever you want to call it. So it didn't just look like Facebook, right? The problem
is their thing called Kali bruh, Kylie
brother. The problem is that nobody trusts Facebook anymore right at all. Facebook has done itself so much
damage because the dating service
Like which one should we choose currency are dating? Right? I mean the probably will get into nuclear
energy. I mean, who knows? I mean, I think Mark goal is to run for president honesty. I think his whole goal was to take over and it all fell apart because
everyone now over medium then you take over the currents. Well ya hear
me, but the problem is that no one wants to trust Facebook with their money. You don't want them in your wallet. I believe if Amazon had launched this instead of Facebook. Would it be huge success and suddenly everyone and their mother would be using crypto. Apple could pull it off as well. Facebook is the absolutely wrong company.
To attempt to pull this off and we're seeing it all fall apart. I mean, I don't know that labor actually ever gets off the ground. Maybe it will I mean marks shown us wrong many many times, right but everyone's backing out of it and the
concept is a payment system. Essentially. It's essentially just more of a Like You by like Uber or you use libref Uber use and then they partners like that right State into it. Let's talk about it over.
Right? Right. That's a whole nother story, right?
Yeah London's calling. So the idea is to make this into a stable currency that we
use. Yes, and those do it.
It cost and the idea is also that if Lieber actually took off it would become the dominant currency. It would it would overnight be bigger than the dollar right? Because Libra is would be used by billions of people because
of money transfers. There's some great to it again people
around we live on the internet. We all live on the internet. We must do everything on the internet. I mean when I look at my kids my kids are seven and nine my kids live on the internet, you know, they're willing to go on a game like Fortnight and spend real money on a skin for their character.
And to them that's more real than the toy. I want to buy them sure. They would rather have something online. So the idea of Libra is going to take off whether it's Libra or some other cryptocurrency. So yeah, it's made for the world that we actually
live. It does make sense for Facebook to do it away from screwing.
It makes other than the fact if Facebook could show us that there to be trusted then I agree. It works for them
WeChat and others, right? They have their careers being used in
China they have you know in China and China's wait going.
On where we are. I mean they're going moving much faster and faster. It's just at Libre has this huge. I mean Facebook had and Libra have this huge PR problem. I mean it comes right on the heels of Cambridge analytic of the political stuff of the idea that they're fake ads and fake news and suddenly they're gonna have control of our wallet.
So what are the wink of I think of this there
so I'm originally they like the idea of an on-ramp because once everyone in the world has an electronic wallet Bitcoin becomes much easier, right, you know, once the people who would never think of Bitcoins are using Libra
ha they would say well what if I want to buy some Bitcoin and there will be a way to do that. These things will all intersect so that they think is positive but they think it's hilarious that Zuckerberg is doing it. It basically said welcome to the party what took you so long, you know, that's the lingo of I line because they've been doing this for 10 years and suddenly
Zuckerberg down the idea of blockchain, which is the
ability which is something that we all kind of agree is the future of a lot of things and sort of this public Ledger this way of, you know, a verifying things in a public way that also
As this private aspect to it. So blockchain is becoming very important in all these different fields. And I you know, I'm not the person necessarily to explain blockchain to anybody but it's an interesting and intriguing part of the story Krypto is definitely going to be part of her future and something like Libra will happen. I think it's going to be Amazon, but I really think the end once Amazon does it it'll instantly be the most successful currency in the I agree. I think we'll all use it because we all use for that. Yeah, we buy things on Amazon everyday anyways, and then you'll use your Amazon.
Dollars or whatever it is at the supermarket and you'll use your Amazon dollars when you go take an Uber and you'll use your Emerson and suddenly you'll be using your Amazon dollars for everything and you realize you have no need for any other dollar. Right? Right. And then everyone in the world will be using one form of currency the
amazon.com. So interesting when I was talking, you know, everyone's like sort of banging away at trap of like these political ads is where the power is is the money these companies is who had either going to get to healthcare they're going to get into all
kinds of things. Yeah.
So talk a little bit about in that idea that one of them and it Facebook is trying
To do this first and stepped out first when the movie The Social Network he came out as you said it helped Mark you're thinking of doing this will be a
book a movie a Bitcoin millionaires will be a movie. I mean Columbia is set to distribute it and we have sort of private money behind it and it's going to be a really interesting story because in some ways, you know, it's not the sequel to The Social Network, but it is the second act for the Twins and it's also about this new form of Mom. That's what I would love to get our me back. I think Army was
amazing. Call me by your name has a
Equal to we could just
we could keep doing these things. I know we've reached out to our me about it. And I think he'd be amazing. You know, he's a phenomenal actor and he's only grown as an actor, but I've always thought he was one of the best he's really great guy. I would love to see Army at it, but we'll see there's others. You know, that could also play the part right? One of the Chris's the many Chris's out there. You have to be big and blond. I think that's pretty much the only requirement. Yeah Winkle by twin and
really got them. I have to say having met Ivan. Yeah, Armie Hammer, but he got
Yeah, I mean he really filled it out. Well, I mean is it that way it was just armies head on one of them remember it was Army one body and then it was armies head-on with all this happen
with Facebook. Would you do okay cool.
Yeah, so there's been working to talk a sequel. So I thought about it. So there's been a lot of talk about a sequel novel are working Aaron Sorkin and Scott Rudin have both so dark. It was the right answer can wrote the movie. And Aaron has been talking a lot about the idea of doing a scene. You just wrote a big S senior got a big head. I think I liked his op-ed a lot in some ways. I mean he was basically saying
Listen, if you could just make things up, we would have had the Winklevoss twins create Facebook. My only concern to that number one. I do think the Winklevoss twins probably did create a lot of what led into Facebook. I also think that the reason the movie didn't get sued also was because there was already a book out and we didn't get sued in the book. But listen, I think that a sequel to The Social Network works because so much you know is going on with him in front of Congress is a great starting place to my movie right on. Yeah because the way he acted the way they didn't understand even what to ask him.
Was really intriguing not the last one the girls. Did they did they went out pretty good, right they did but it's this kind of generational thing going on. There's this real moment going on where technology has reached the point where you need to be smart and you need to understand the world. We actually live in like for instance the idea of breaking up Facebook. It doesn't make any sense to me and calls for that. I think are not understanding what Facebook is and the role it has in our lives. It's interesting that you would say, you know, I don't believe you should break up Facebook because all that's going to happen is you're going to develop
help another Facebook. I mean these things if we're not all on it, it doesn't work. Right. So either we're all using Facebook or none of us are using Facebook. There's no this Facebook and that Facebook and that Facebook. It has to be one thing. The problem is is that I think Mark is wrong when he says it's not his responsibility for what's on Facebook. Facebook has to be run by people who are responsible for everything that's on Facebook. So you do I do believe that Facebook ought to have all of us on it. I think the general idea of it being this Village we all live on and makes our lives better is a good thing.
The idea that you know who's talking to you the wrong with Twitter and let's not use Twitter all the times. I love it. It's a cesspool because it's Anonymous and people are just putting their worst instincts out on the world Facebook is
different in
that. You're supposed to know who's talking to you. Right? And I think that brings out better
things. So what would it be? What would be the title of this?
Well, I think it could be still Facebook or your the movie or that the movie. It's a great. You know, I have definitely in the last week or two started thinking about doing another book because you know, I've heard I called the
A purpose The Purge the fall of Facebook. I think there's a lot of ways you could go with this but I don't know there have been a lot of books written about the Cambridge analytic other. Yeah, it looks a bit different instances. What I'm most intrigued about is where Zuckerberg is now and how he's facing also who are the characters? So Mark Zuckerberg is definitely a second character there was it I think that you know, I think that Cheryl is an amazing character. So I went to college with her. We were classic at Harvard who the same year and when
Social network came out, you know, she wasn't in love with what we did and she was not happy about it that it is anecdote. That that's working. Right? Right. She said how can you do this to a kid or whatever say that? Yeah. I've heard her say that too but then I ran into her at my reunions and and at first I thought this is going to be very awkward know she's super but then she came up to me and she said you know what we hated you for a while and then we took a bus load of employees and saw the movie he did and we ended up embracing it to some extent and she and I got along very well her husband at the time we
Sadly passed away his wonderful guy. He was a fan of my books and had read a lot my books last time. It was a really smart guy. Wonderful and I like Cheryl. I think Cheryl's really smart. And I think she was the adult in the room, but she got caught up in a very bad situation because Facebook was dealing with a lot of bad things and went about it wrong. And so I think she is now my theory as she's trying to get out from under you probably know more than I do. I think her plan was to run for president and also and I think she had a way to
Not sure about that, but you wrote a great book. She was moving forward and becoming one of the most respected women in business one of the most powerful women in business, then gets caught up in this all this dirt and now you don't hear a lot because she's gotta stay quiet and try and get out from under it. Yeah, so she should come and tell me your story. Okay, of course, but I think she needs to get out from Facebook and she needs to get out from Mark Zuckerberg needs to get away from all of this and restart being the powerful person
that she is happens at this. Okay, you've got what happens
is this
Kendrell now I mean everything he touches is full of hatred people are so angry. Yeah, there's and are and Ben mezrich. I think it's absolutely Fair. Now, I think that he could have handled things differently. I think there's there there were ways out that he didn't take so what should he do now? What is she doing now? Is he should say first of all, we're going to make every effort we can to be a media company because that's what we are and we are going to police the media on this site because you can't just have garbage all over the place. You can't run a public.
House and published garbage all day long and not have like you can but you have
never done better from a stock but there are over 200. They're doing killing it in the listen. It's not about that
though. And we I mean I have two kids who kids people who have kids who look at Facebook should feel fear because our kids are growing up in a world where they're going to live large percent of their life online and they're going to be fed stuff targeted at the whole idea of targeting write anything at you is horrific to me adds should not be targeted. There's something very very wrong.
Wrong with behavioral targeting right running an analysis on what it is you like and then attempting to send things to you because contextual claim it makes your experience better. The reality is it does not make your experience better. It makes the world worse and targeting political ads is just one piece of that. Nothing should be targeted at you ever and the whole idea of targeting politics news stories because you might want to see them it's ruining the world because it's creating these little political silos these little personal silos. These Echo Chambers do this.
Our speech recently it I heard you know a red and so I was there of it. I mean what is specifically I mean, I you know the Sorkin and his response to Sorkin and this and that he
has a speech. Yeah. It was really thin it we has to actually Jack's even tweets were more. Right but I think what they're
saying they're doing is a better response is that the reality is if it's going to be in my life all day long if I'm going to live on your website you have to have responsibility for what you're showing me you absolutely do.
Do you can't show me lies? You can't show me things that you think I want to
say. Look, why is it continuing that way because Mark has full control
over its continuing that way because it shifted from this revolutionary idea that will make the world a better place to something that makes a lot of money that he believes should be in all our lives. I think he bought the idea that targeting things out us makes our lives better and I disagree with that idea. I don't think that had anything to do with the origins of Facebook. There was no targeting that came much later.
The idea was we would have this Village and you could live on this village and we're all going to get to know each other because we're all verified. The verification was a big part of what made Facebook right? Everyone had to have their Harvard edu to join that site which by the way according the Winklevoss twins came from the Winklevoss twins. They are site needed a Harvard edu, and I something that Mark right used on Facebook, but that was brilliant if we know who we're talking to it's not a bot. It's not some
Russian and yet that's what then service
got manipulated.
Ali got manipulated because they change they started targeting they started allowing fakes the how many how many people on Facebook are real? You know, there's been lots of talk about what's fake on Facebook. What's real on Facebook? There should be nothing fake on Facebook. Every single person on Facebook should be a person weight and that they can control
that what they absolutely can what what happens. Where do you see if well, I think the end to have
to pull in this direction I really do with Facebook is going to survive and listen financially they can grow and grow and grow and grow but if it's going to survive
And not have a competitor that takes it out. It's going to have to go back to that idea that everyone you see on Facebook as a real person is interacting with you in a real way there can still be ads but adds like we used to get on television right watch TV, and there's ads on it.
So if you had to pick what the competitor is, like if you're
writing if I where are we right now? It's so funny that so many people say I'm leaving Facebook. I'm just going to be on Instagram, right? But so many people say that right. It's the same thing. I don't think there needs to be or is going to be necessarily a competitor that takes
Us out Facebook, I think eventually Zuckerberg will see the light and start making the changes he needs to make I mean as I say, I've always believed Mark is somewhat megalomaniacal. I think he believes he's right everyone's wrong, but eventually there will be a moment where he realizes. He's destroying himself when he realizes the world hates
you listen to us in her Joy do
we know it's not there yet. Yeah, he's not there yet. But at some point the sheen is going to go away and the emperor's gonna you know realize he's naked and everyone's gonna you don't think so. I'm
optimistic. I mean
Finally got Sacha Baron Cohen to do it. I mean I wrote and welcome to the resistance.
I mean, that's pretty Roger and that was pretty pretty cool. That was very very
cool. You know, he's getting whacked again because what it's saying is wacky is linking around free speech in a way that Free Speech should have no consequence and I'm like it always does and you have to think harder that my whole point mark is not that he shouldn't create these things. It said he has to think harder about the implications of what he's created and that there's a wide belt. I think the thing that bothered me about the speech and being there.
It was one that people couldn't ask questions. But that's another just annoyance was that there was either Free Speech or China? No free speech and I was like, there's so much in between. Right? Right, and it was fast. I thought I was thinking you know what he's trying to convince himself that this is okay. That's when I finally came to the conclusion. He wasn't really trying to convince anyone else. He was trying to come up with an intellectual justification for what he was doing when he didn't have the intellect to do. So, right right, you know
what I mean? Yeah, you're absolutely right and I
think and I don't mean to say it's not so
As develop he's very very smart. I just think
he the idea that you can step back from the responsibility the idea that you know, you can say Okay Free Speech. It's not my problem or and you're in everyone's house and on everyone's phone all day long and they're living on your world. You can't step
away you have some that was your original book was about stepping away from responsibility. You mean in terms of yeah that your book was accidental billionaires was about
that was about who is
taking cutting Corners doing those kind of things. You mean how
he did that? Yeah. That's who he is. I mean if you look at the IMs that
Again, so in Bitcoin billionaires, I actually put all of those horrible. I am yeah Mark that has very
real 18 or 19. You
know what but what was he talking about? He was talking about Facebook and he was talking about the company. He was building that we are living in today, right? And he said I like to live my life unethically but legally, I like to I'm gonna fuck them in the ear. Right? I'm gonna lead the Winklevoss twins on and I'm gonna fuck them over and he said these things specifically in his own words and you can say okay. He was 18 years old whatever age he wasn't 18 years old. He was whatever.
Created this company then the company that we're all dealing with today. It was built on that.
So what let me finish what has to happen to change that.
Well, I think either Mark I mean it's got to be marked because he's not going to step down let someone else take over the company. I think he needs to realize that this isn't going to work anymore and that he has to take responsibility for what is on Facebook. He has to be the one who sets forth and said, I'm going to make sure that we're not lies and we're not targeting crap at you and that you're
Kids are going to grow up in a world where they're getting the right information, you know the right way and that the everyone who's on Facebook is a real person. I think that's the first thing he should do is every single person on Facebook as a real person. There's nothing on there. That's not real. Why not do that. Why is that so hard? It's not hard. It's not hard right? It's actually hard technology involved. You don't think he can do
that? No, because I think it's cult-like around him. I think if you look at the people around them the
what would be wrong with that nothing. I mean if every side,
Person that you saw a person who was a real
person listen to me when I'm again. Do you not have that person? I'm against it and that allows everyone
has everyone has take responsibly for what they say on
Facebook. I think they're making sonam's acceptance a countries where there's danger like no Kong or things like there. That's what they try to do. They say but in Hong Kong, I'm like, yeah, but United's that you
can but that's they could do the United States version right here where you could do a country country and that that's the thing about Free Speech, you know, it's absolutely true that free speech is a great thing. We should all have it, but you have to be responsible for your free speech. We all family and we all feel that way and this would be the answer.
Let me
Finish up. I asked you if you had to pick a area. So you dealt with social media or on it Bitcoin. What area would you pick
now? Yeah, I mean that's part. So I'm staying out of Politics as right. It's not my beat and less a hunter Biden comes to me and wants to tell his story right be my character. Oh really? Because I loved the guy who stumbled into it who's suddenly in the center of everything. That's what I love and so much has happened in his life. There's a great Thriller in hundred by in this life. But anyways barring that politics
Probably not might beat, you know, we're so politics obsessed right now that I can't imagine putting out a book in the next year, but I don't know. I don't think the Bitcoin story is done yet. And so I'm the movie is going to be the way I continue that story. I don't really know. What's next. I don't have my next book. That's okay. I'm hoping one of your listeners comes, you know, most of my books come from people pitching me because he finds me on
Twitter one technology. You're like, oh that's interesting. I think be
zosyn Amazon would be a story that I would write but I would need access to something there that you know know right
Actly I have that of course not I think you know, he's definitely the moment of our times I love space. I love Elon Musk. I know there's been a musk book, but I think he's fascinating. Yeah, I love these fascinating outside characters, but I also am always look for something that's going to last longer truck thing. Yeah, the truck is cool. Right? I don't know what that was, but it was cool thing, but I'm a fan of him being Charlie and the Chocolate Factory. Let him just make his crazy thought of let him make his tunnels and his
Lowers in his space cars. I want to see it because I want to live in that world too. I wrote a book about George Church. Oh, I don't know if you George but George Church's the Einstein of our times who's making a woolly mammoth. I wrote a book called wooly about this Harvard lab that is making a woolly mammoth and he's a geneticist who is also working on extending Our Lives to a hundred and fifty years and he's also working on, you know, fixing the environment with this algae that eats carbon and makes wood. So I'm really obsessed with Scientists who are trying to change the world's great. It's always hard to sell a book about science because
The general public just you know, see science and glazes over but I'm still fascinated by genetics. I did write a book called Willy about that. But I think there's more to be said about living forever. I think that's a great story Peter thiel's involved in that as from the finance side. I've always said that the world is going to be saved by a billionaire married to a scientist. That's the future that I think, you know, we get out of our environmental problems. We get out of our health problems Cancer, all of these things are going to be solved by a billionaire married to a scientist which by the way is what Zuckerberg is but in reality
When you put large amounts of money and these outsized egos who believe they can do anything together with someone who actually knows how to do things. You do
change the world you did you said it was great spending aren't times about those bubbles that go down to the bottom of the sea. It's all billionaires buying them. Of course. Yes, right. Yeah thing was space. Yeah, although the idea of like,
so I'm sure your climate change at all. I have to tell you I'm one of these people were so optimistic about it because I've gone to all these like hate sand be scientists come in and they all have these incredible ways of fixing it now. Some of them are completely
Lately crazy in my kill us all but every now and then one of them seems very smart and all it's gonna take is the right scientist in the right billionaire and it's all gonna go away. I really thinks that I'm a big fan of that. So that's my thoughts on
that. All right Ben. I'm excited to see the next movie. I'll take Mark with me
and you know what I want. I want to say you're a legend and I thank you being able to sit down with you something. I thank
you fan of yours also, and thank you so much for coming on the show. You can follow me on Twitter at Kara Swisher my executive producer Eric. Anderson is a Tarik.
My producer Eric Johnson is it hey esj been where can people find you
online. I'm on Twitter at Ben mezrich or Ben mezrich.com or you know any other regular
place. Yeah, and actually I would recommend people read The Accidental billionaires go back and read it. It's a really well-written book. It's very funny. I really appreciate that and the Bitcoin Builders is also well written it's very funny and I can I have this Instinct called Winkle by again. They
are their GI tell you when sit down with the Winklevoss and it'll change your view the window by they are brilliant and I think
These are American icons. I really do. I think that guys like the Winklevoss are changing the world for the
better. Yeah, I think when people are too good looking and tall and
well, that's the thing I grew up in nerdy guy and I look at Uncle by and they terrify me. You know, what if they were running Facebook right now? I don't think we'd be running into these issues.
So that's true. But if they had invented Facebook, they would have invented
Facebook
in the movie The Social Network. I was my dramatic reading I should win an Oscar if you liked this episode really appreciate if you share it with a friend and if make sure to check out our newest podcast reset just search for it on your podcast.
App of choice or tap the link in the show notes. Thanks. Also to our editor Joe Robbie. Thanks special. Thanks to whr be at Harvard University for hosting us. This is the only thing I could get into at Harvard just so you know, thank you for listening to this episode of Rico decode. I'll be back here on Monday tune in then.
Season 2 of the jump is out now here legendary frontwoman Shirley Manson of garbage talk with a claimed musicians from all over the Spectrum on the one song that changed their lives this season of the podcast surely sits down with Matt Beringer of the national George Clinton Ian C Brittany Howard of Alabama Shakes Liz Phair Sharon Van Etten and more. Don't forget to catch up on season one to hear Shirley's conversations with artists such as Neko Case Esperanza Spalding big boy.
Courtney Love The Jump is an original podcast from MailChimp and it's available on Apple podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts. Listen And subscribe
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What would you do? If you found out your family had a dark secret Legacy from Micha green and JJ Abrams comes HBO's newest series Lovecraft country a John Rabe ending drama that blurs the line between science fiction and reality and 1950s Jim Crow America starring Jonathan Majors Jurnee Smollett Courtney Vance and Michael Kenneth Williams Lovecraft country airs Sundays at 9 p.m. On HBO and stream it on HBO Max and listen to the Lovecraft country Companion podcast.
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