The Rich Roll podcast.
Hey people welcome to the show. Today's episode is brought to you by Roca founded in a modest garage and Austin Texas by two of my fellow Rockstar Stanford swimmers. Roca has created the world's finest performance gear and an eyewear for anybody who is an athlete.
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Journalist writer environmentalist activist talk about various topical issues of interest and answer listener questions today. I kick off the show with a few exciting announcements for you guys. Pretty pumped up about that. We share ruminations on everything from writer's block cancel culture to Kanye West and Alternative Health. We dissect the varying political ideologies of the Wellness Community we
We explore the ways in which people are so easily swayed by the vicissitudes of the YouTube algorithm why we should all be on high alert when it comes to the media we consume and then in the second part of the podcast, I answer some relatively philosophical audience questions on the subjects of finding purpose how to better Embrace mindfulness maintaining goals and how to navigate cognitive dissonance and confirmation bias.
I must say I'm really enjoying this new format experiments. I hope you guys are as well. So without further Ado enjoy
everybody Welcome to the podcast. We're back with another episode of role on our ask
me anything format where me and my hype man Adam Adam skolnick. Hey break down a couple topics. We take questions from the
Listeners and the idea is just to be a little bit more contemporaneous and freeform with this show So Adam, how's it going? It's
going good, man. I've had it's been a crazy last couple of weeks. And yeah, well you moved moved we moved in the same building to a slightly bigger place. Could you know, my wife is eight months pregnant almost or I guess it's seven months and through the seventh. We're in the eighth month now and so we moved to this place.
That is like so similar to the old place but just like slightly different. It's like your mind. You're like the same building. Yeah, so your mind is like a skipped record. Usually when you move you want to move to a radically different place. It's like easier to process but in this case, it's like slightly different. So it was very like a trick mirror. We're living in a trick mirror and well like a parallel universe Harold you are living in a parallel universe. Well, you're here today here. We're going to
break it down before we get into it. I did want to make a couple announcements big.
Announcements I'm very excited about I have been hard at work for the last several weeks trying to put the finishing touches on a new book. It's been a
while since right now so super excited about
it. It's called voicing change. And essentially it's a beautiful coffee table art book that contains Timeless wisdom
from the podcast with layout.
Excerpts from some of my favorite guests over the years accompanied
by beautiful
photographs and I'm
so excited about it. Super proud how many interviews eject
we're trying to figure out right. Now how many like we have of course like I can't put everybody in we're and this will probably be the first in what will be a number of volumes because we've kind of got this down and we could put one out eventually every year. So this is just going to be considered like the first
one and of course no matter how well I try to
curate it. I'm sure I'll leave somebody's favorite guests out or whatever.
But right now I think we have about 50 excerpts in there with some essays that a few people have contributed and it's going to be great. We don't have an official release date yet, but we're looking at around
Thanksgiving time. Hopefully don't hang up on printers and all of that. So your self publishing this one we are self publishing this one. Yeah. Congrats.
And it's looking
really beautiful. Can't wait to share more about it. But this even right on I've said anything on the podcast about it, but that's what I've been basically spending most of my time doing lately.
Yeah, you said you've been writing like 10 hours a day or like hold up into the wall in the office. Yeah, but the problem is that I spent the better part of the the the
quarantine complete dilettante until the deadline was just so overwhelming that I was put into a situation where I had to drop everything that I was doing.
Doing and only right and for whatever reason I don't know what it is man. Like it took that deadline and the fear of not having it done to get my ass in gear and get this
thing finished. That's what deadlines do right. I wish I could be the person who
just works on it two hours a day, but
how long has it been since you've been like writing that intensively
like long time a long time, you know the first book the last
book that I did was finding all
Right. Here's a go, right? I rewrote it a couple years ago,
but still, you know, that wasn't like creating a book out of whole cloth. The cookbooks are more like this project in that their jigsaw puzzles where there's a lot of people involved. Like I have a whole team of people who are working on this. So there's only aspects of it that are the written word. A lot of it is design and layout and all the like and curating, you know, how we want it to be presented. But but you know, I've done a fair amount of
writing
I'm recalling so I'm excited about it. Yeah, he's excited. I can that back in the writing mode. Forget the first time in a long time. You got the muscle warmed up. Do you find that like as you've started getting back into it that you're finally finding a flow or that you find a flow or is it always is it always hard? Like, how is that process for you? Well, what's interesting about that
is I actually have have really had a hard time getting back into it for whatever reason like, I hate the word, you know writer's block, but for
Reasons unbeknownst to me. It has been quite a challenge to just put my butt in the chair and do the thing in a way that I haven't experienced before in my life and I was starting to get concerned like maybe I just did not end up doing this anymore. Or maybe I've lost my touch or maybe I'm getting old and I had a discussion on the podcast with a neuroscientist recently as guy Andrew huberman who's all about like how the brain works and I laid this out for him on was like what is wrong with me because then once the
Headline became real and I was able to like appreciate the gravity of the situation. I'd created for myself and started working on it. Now. It's all I can think about like everything else is a distraction. Hmm. I don't want to do anything but do this and it made me think like why you know, why am I wired in this way? Like, yeah, that's part of my addictive nature because again, I'd like to be the person who just does it in a very balanced manner but
It's an immersive experience. You know, yeah, somebody who writes books all the time and is writing a book right now. Yeah, and you're in you're like all in and it becomes your entire
universe, but I find it's always hard. You know, like I just finished the finally finished the first draft of this raw this Roderick. I call it out and call the first draft of the raw draft of this manuscript of this talking about it's a novel. It's a novel. It's like talk about imposter syndrome. I've had that the entire time like, you know like his I did write a novel before
And that's what got me an agent, but we didn't sell it and but this time it's not even nothing about my life. It's not semi-autobiographical. I found one was so it's challenged me in ways and it was I was also avoiding it. I always had these reasons why I shouldn't start it, you know, like I didn't have the research done. I didn't have time to do it because of this that the other thing and then when quarantine came
along with Frandsen
exactly and then there's that well, I know I'm not Jonathan friends and don't worry spoiler alert.
But yeah, so finally getting that done but like each almost every day finally towards the end. Once you get to the point, you can see the downhill to the Finish Line. It becomes a little easier but like it was hard almost every day and what helped me was that Stephen King interview with in New York Times magazine David Marchese. Is it Marquez and marches? I don't know he does these great and I think he's the best interviewer in print media and he's being New York Magazine now. He's at the Times.
Magazine and Stephen King was he asked him is does it always do you know when you have like a great book on your hands when you're riding goes they always feel terrible. Yeah, and if that Stephen King saying that very comforting it's very it is very comforting. Yeah. I'm trying to
get Steven pressfield on the podcast. If you read war of art, no turning pro have known my goodness. Those are the manuals for unlocking all of this stuff. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, you should definitely check that out.
Do I need to he's the dude when it comes to that stuff.
And
he lives in Malibu. I've been going back and forth with him. Oh,
really? Oh, you'll get him on the show. See? Yeah, that's perfect. The other the other announcement that I
wanted to make is that we're right now contemplating some version of a subscription service for the things that that we do here and I put a survey up on the Facebook group page for the podcast. So for those of you don't know there's a
a group which role podcast you can find it on Facebook. I'll put a link in the show notes to that with a few questions because it's something that we're putting a lot of thought into and if and how we do it is going to be very much dependent upon all of your feedback and input. I don't want to do anything that that isn't going to satisfy the kind of things that the audience is looking for from me. So excited about the work that we're doing there. The idea would be that we would be able to offer
I'm premium things Beyond just the pockets will always be free and I'm always going to do the podcast the way that we're doing it. But what else can I do to
be of service and
contribute to this community? And how can I be a more present communicative member of the community as well, which is where my head's at. So if you
kind of like a remote Retreat like doing what you do in the retreat mode, but yeah, I would be
like, how about a month?
Please Zoom call with everybody who's a subscriber. What about a bonus podcast episode every month, you know, things like that and and just taking everybody's temperature and pulse on what they would be interested in so excited about the work that we're doing there. And again, that's another thing where I'll keep you guys posted and more will be
revealed that Facebook group is cool. Like it's fun to see everybody interacting. Yeah connecting on their own terms, but with content inspired by your content. Yeah, I mean the idea there is I
To make a place
for the community to do its own thing outside of
myself like for it to for
those people to interact with each other and to be able to see that happening is
really cool. Yeah, what's funny is after I had Doug Evans on the
podcast then it just became like a whole
portal for people sharing about
sprouting and everybody was, you know, exchanging their tips and where they get their equipment and what their sprouts look like, so I thought I would bring
NG in some of my own Sprouts the funny thing about that is Doug got me doing it. I got these canisters which you can see here. If you're watching this on YouTube there just
basic Glasgow. I think I got everything
from Sprout man Sprout man.com. They have a little grated top on them and I have now more Sprouts than I can possibly do anything with it. I literally had to stop sprouting because they started to overwhelm my too
much. It's just too much eating Sprouts all day long. Did you do?
Victor you from the kitchen know she's excited about it
actually because I've taken an interest and some version of home
economics for a change so she's very supportive but I got a whole rack up in our kitchen and I've got a process. Yeah.
I'm it's very
satisfying mmm because it's all done. It's
also its first of all, it's super easy be basically rinse these things overnight and then you are you soak them overnight and then you rinse them like two or three times a day for a couple days and they just do their thing and these are lentils, so these
Our yeah, those are lentils here. This one's like a mix I got these like containers. It's that pop Lids on them. I put them in the fridge and weight loss tip easy for anybody out there who's looking to drop a few pounds Doug told me that he basically just eat Sprouts all day. Mmm. I was like, how is that possible like? Yeah,
aren't you starving like aren't Ukraine you like I so I thought well, I'll try that. So
for the past couple weeks like throughout the day, I'll just munch on sprouts as a snack and there.
Really incredibly filling you can only eat
so many before you max out and my gut definitely had to adjust it took a little bit of time at sounds now pretty adjusted and it's become
habitual. Like I'll just eat Sprouts throughout the day. Yeah, and it really does modulate my appetite and I'll eat a normal dinner, but there's been days where I'll just eat Sprouts during the day and then I'll eat dinner and I've been
fine. So you are like going in the full transition to bunny. I feel like it.
Yeah, fuck this route high five and I'll run run through the hill anyway, so yeah, I'm enjoying it though. So you got it. You got to get on it - you know, April really wants to eat when you're pregnant. You can't eat sprouts and I can't I didn't know why but really I'm sure it's in one of the baby books. I've avoided reading so far but all different kinds of sprouts. Yeah, they say stay away from Sprouts, but that might be Sprouts you buy in the kit in the in the store because E, coli is somehow more prevalent route. So I think if you make it yourself,
Off maybe that's not as much of an issue. I think the fear. Oh miss. I don't know but I suspect the fear is
that you know, they can go bad. And so if you eat a
bad patch that could be problematic or dangerous
you guys. I don't know that there would be anything in Sprouts that haven't like turned that would be unhealthy for a pregnant person, but I'm not a doctor don't listen to
me. No, don't worry. We're sticking to the baby books. We've got a where you just we're installing blinds in the new place and they can't you can't have the cords.
Right to be cordless, which is elevated everything price-wise about 2x, uh-hum because and and yes, they were talking about it. Like well, maybe we could just go with cords and she's like, I'm like what where does it say that we shouldn't have chords you can she goes literally every baby book. Oh really? And I'm like the only one not just go one month until well, too. So September 10. Yeah coming up quick. I think it's going to be September 11th, because I'm December 7th. Yeah, so I think we're going to be the tragic holiday.
Boys, we'll see ya more will be revealed Steve. What do you want to talk about?
I thought we could talk a little bit about well, let me set the stage. So as many of you know, the last couple months of the podcast. I've been pretty heavy. I've done my best to tackle some very serious subjects everything from racial Injustice to systemic racism food Injustice, you know.
Only the most pertinent important topics of our time that were grappling with we have a bit of a respite this week. I put up Kevin Smith and his daughter Harley Quinn Smith super delightful fun conversation, but I've been spending a lot of time kind of reflecting on how to best communicate and advocate in this space.
With the understanding that it's so fraught and because we put these podcasts up on YouTube. You see the comments and you get a sense of what's Landing for people and what isn't not that YouTube comments are a
reliable source so of constructive
feedback, but I do know that for a lot of people it's been challenging in terms of how to communicate publicly in the most effective way.
around these issues and there's a lot of fear from certain people who don't want to get it wrong don't want to miss step don't want to offend and the result of that has been to retreat from the conversation altogether, which doesn't help now right and you've
decided
Obviously against that from the beginning you were very clear that you wanted to address the situation beginning. What do you think is the inspiration to retreat from it? What are people besides just fear is is that is it the idea of being canceled or like somehow being called out? Yeah. I mean there's a lot of calling out right now. There is a robust cancel culture of
foot and I think people are terrified
of getting a taste of what that
experience might be and look.
Complicated because on the one hand the the you know, the public forum is holding people accountable for things that need to be addressed and spoken about and in many ways that culture has led to some of the changes that we're seeing right now at the same time. I think it's important to provide people a little bit of breathing room around this who might get it wrong initially, you know, Bill Maher talked about this and it's
closing monologue a couple weeks ago that you know, we have to encourage people to participate in this rather than discourage them from raising their hand and saying, you know, I want to be part of this as well, but I'm afraid mmm.
I mean I think
I agree with you. I mean there's there is a danger of you don't want to become the new McCarthy has right like we're all of a sudden you can't if you say the wrong thing, you're branded a certain way and you're out, you know, because that plays into people who want to keep things the same as they've always been it plays right into their hands, right? Because now you've elevated them as the people who are more in touch with free speech which is, you know, definitely in
Men to this cut of this country that's been you know, that's of all the things. I mean, I'm of all things America has been good at free speech is one of them. I mean it really is so so it's probably at the top of that list. So it's core to the culture here. That's why people like coming here, you know. Look what's happening in Hong Kong right now. We're all overnight that just gets the light switch is turned off. So when you cancel people to the degree, you know based on there's some things that
happen that are legit, but when you just cancel people because they said something the wrong way are all of a sudden it, you know things and and and their whole careers is now in Jeopardy, especially if it's really a misinterpretation or a matter
of perception
that is dangerous because you are playing you are pushing people away. That could be a contributor to making things better
Mmm Yeah, and I think it's more nuanced than just cancel culture. It's just being
Remanded publicly, you know the way Bill Maher put it. He's like you want to be a good Ally but
not too good or you're a white savior. You want to use your voice but you shouldn't make it about yourself, you know, the rules are complicated and it's almost like you have to thread a needle or walk this tightrope and I think a lot of people are just like I don't like I'm no matter what I do. It's not going to be right and so I'm just gonna
Opt out.
Yeah, and I agree. I mean like there is the argument to be made that we wouldn't be where we are in terms of confronting racism finally and more definitively if it wasn't for the Orthodoxy of the left, right? So now the fact that there are hard lines of how to behave which are kind of an F mud to people of my generation Gen X, which was like we want to rebel against those rules all the time like when you were supposed to behave a certain way we wanted to
Behave a different way right on but now this generation is all about behaving the right way and signaling the right things and communicating the right way. And and so that has gotten us to this point where we're actually making some progress or it seems to we seems to me that we're making some progress because because people are are are holding politicians feet to the fire and and other public people, you know people who have a public platform their feet are being held in the fire or their their
Epping in line because they want to whatever it is. There is a line at people are lined up to do it and so it could be this Orthodoxy which
Can be construed as as somewhat dangerous if it continues going forward like six moves down the road for now has put us in an unprecedented position in terms of tackling racism in America and confronting it head on so it's there's that but then there's also the thing is well, if you continue to narrow it then then are we going to make the real progress we want to make or should we widen it and allow everybody to be a part of
it. Right? Well, the strictures have become so
Drained yeah, and as a fellow gen-xers
her yes, you know it is true. It was all about
individualism a rebellion against control systems, but the locus of that control was always governments and organizations, where as now the control mechanism is diffused across the population and to the extent that there is value in woke - because it's waking up this awareness.
Inside of ourselves about Grandeur problems that
exist outside of our
you know, individualistic dispositions at the same time. The extremists aspect of woke - I think is is very toxic and the downstream implications of that type of policing of speech and behavior is not in service to the best interests of liberalism, right?
Because liberalism is this ideal that we want to Aspire to where it can be people of different thoughts and beliefs come together to create a society that is
mostly free and open. Right right and when and and when we're being regimented in in such a way that openness is called into question. Yeah, you know, and and I think
by it also or who want to keep the status quo.
Well also the
Dream aspects of woke - also just further entrench and solidify the the conservative point of view because people look at that and just think these people are out of their minds.
It's absolutely true. Also it now like the new punk rock thing to do is to be conservative. So there's that aspect to like if you want really want to piss people off. It's reunited many become, you know, that's true like young people who want to piss people off and be the radical now use it like,
We are growing up. No way wouldn't be Republicans doing that right now. It is Republicans doing
that beyond that the
true heterodoxy is
happening online. That's not a part of the mainstream Media or news culture that were that we're seeing on cable news, right the ideas that are trying to address these from a perspective of Greater nuance and understanding are happening in long form conversations, you know across podcasting and YouTube. Yeah agreed
but it's almost like
both are happening and you know that that gets us into this other kind of place and I want before we go in there. But before we get into kind of the wellness and and rabbit hole and all of that kind of to get us there when I think about when I think of the cancel culture and public shaming
and the
Orthodoxy of speech and and political thought on the left and the right I think of kind of the Balinese philosophy of
Hit the Karana which is all about cultivating harmony with yourself and with God or the universe. However, you want to describe it Harmony among people within the community and the family and harmony with nature the environment that's what was all built around because it was this culture that came up on the small island. Its own kind of Hindu culture that developed with animist beliefs and Hinduism and the end this culture developed because all we have is this island. So we need to make sure all works, you know, like the way we
channel the water to the rice fields everything the way we interact with one another we are now in this place where we want to eradicate and Destroy and I understand why you know, like it's because people have felt that they're trying that their lives are in Jeopardy that there be eradicated or not her door and Destroy and attempted to destroy but shouldn't the aspiration be Harmony, you know, like and and with in Balinese worldview, is this idea that
You can't you can't
destroy the dark thing the evil thing it can never be destroyed. The best you can do is cultivate enough light that you have a balance and that's what you can do. And that's not just within Society that's within yourself because we all have kind of these dark thoughts right? I mean that's just part of the human condition and so they do it through meditation and through rituals that are performed on a daily basis and then within a village and within island-wide
We it's something that I think about I was been thinking about that this week is that would be a good place to get to if we can consider. How do we cultivate harmony with ourselves within the community and and with nature because that should that should be the driving force. And if you do that, there will be no place for people like the current president door, you know. All right figures there will be no place for them. They'll exist because you can't eliminate that but you can't they won't have the oxygen.
Yeah, but when you do this other thing where you try to eradicate them they become like demagogues. They become bigger. Yeah, not smaller. Well, I think the problem with I mean it's a beautiful ideal. I think
the the what makes Translating that notion or laying that template upon America as we see it right now is the fact that we have systems that need to be reformed yet before that's functional because that idea as beautiful as
It is gets conflated with all lives matter or you know, I don't see color. You know what I mean? Like it's like oh Harmony and I think in order to get to that place first, we need to drill down on the the the systemic aspect of these problems and what's driving, you know, the kind of unconscious forces that are creating problems that lead to the disenfranchisement of people of color, right? And
Until we do that we can't deal with the harmony part. No
like that. That's that, you know decides like so do you want the Orthodoxy because that'll get which which is the place that gets us there though. Like the Orthodoxy has got us this place where we're confronting it head on is that going to be enough to actually get to the systemic root of it, or do you need to build consensus? And if you need to build consensus, then you can't do that with just the Orthodoxy, right? So you need to have now I understand what you're saying.
Yeah. I mean, you know consensus is the way forward right? But right now we're
Creating demagogue. Yeah, my fear is that my fear is that this
polarization is only going to escalate and that really is driving a rift that makes this problem all the more difficult to solve right?
And and if you come across I mean I'm with the conversation of systemic change and we need to get there. But if we if what drives us towards getting there is this idea of week we have to live in harmony because we do all live here like we need a Unity of purpose.
Purposely the unity rhombus so it's not so much trying to culturally appropriate to Balinese worldview and put it here. It's the side guiding lifetime of like this idea that that there is something to be learned from all these different cultures that have cultivated something that does seem to work for people and for Community. There's I mean, not that it's an ideal place, but it's something to think about like a philosophy to think about and how can that be applied here?
Yeah shifting gears a little bit. I wanted to talk about
How all of these ideas impact the wellness and Alternative Health Community because one of the things that I've noticed that I think it's super interesting is the way in which the Wellness Community itself has become our certain aspect of it has become radicalized or prone to more conspiracy oriented ideas, and I've been spending a lot of time thinking about why that is like there's a strange Venn.
Diagram when you look at the Wellness Community and how it overlaps with certain political ideologies. I used to think that these things lived in separate universes, but now everything is political and recent events have made that truth all the more so and in thinking about it the conclusion that I'm that I'm arriving at is that I think I think at its Origins well,
well, not the wellness movement if there is such a thing grew out of the roots of Alternative Health ideologies and
Those Notions are the result of people taking attempting to take better control of their own health trajectories and also a healthy distrust of the medical establishment. Like don't just you know, go to your doctor and get a prescription like here are some other things that you could potentially do that might make you a healthier human being and over time. I think that bread a healthy distrust of certain institutions that perhaps don't
Have the best interests of right
individuals in the patients and I think that's good. And now that seems to have metastasized in ways that are potentially unhealthy.
Yeah. It's like embedded within this kind of Wellness Community that it is becoming more and more skeptical of things, especially with this pandemic and and the CDC and all you know, that kind of thing that you're talking about right the wellness. Is that what you're getting at the fact that online?
There is a healthy portion of the Wellness Community that is basically doesn't believe the coronavirus stats doesn't believe that it's as dangerous or yeah, I mean, I don't want to go down some, you know, crazy rabbit hole about conspiracy X Y or Z. Yes. That's not the purpose of why I brought this up but I think in
general, yes, like there's a there's a receptivity to potentially wrongheaded ideas right now.
Among the Wellness Community that I think is new and different and something to be
aware of. I think that it comes it's because it's because they've been you know, all of this stuff that we are seeing now fake news, whether it be from the health side or just general fake political news or whatever it is that only works because there was a period of time when we were lied to and blatantly misled by the FBI by government is
Matush ins by Dow Chemical whatever it is. I don't know if you saw the movie Dark Waters. What about the whole Teflon situation would do I think it's Du Pont actually that Mark Ruffalo movie. I haven't seen it yet, but I'm familiar with the case. Yeah, so mean there is this route that that is kind of talks was toxic to pee and there's a healthy distrust right that comes with that rather. It's a
chemical company or a pharmaceutical company or an oil company.
And and so this is all a result.
That you know, like in the 50s when Village Voice was founded and then all these all weeklies in the 60s kind of and which was heavily tied in with Wellness stuff. Some of them were, you know, very much connected kind of they popped up all across the country these all weeklies and became a movement and that was because the mainstream media wasn't to be trusted. They were kind of spinning the party line that's not you know, so that's hasn't changed that that distrust of these institutions.
Ever left now. It's just change shape and form and into a much more powerful force, which is is which is digital media and social media. Yeah.
It is weird that everything is political now. Yeah, there used to be politics and everything else. But now there's nothing that isn't part and parcel of a political discussion. It is weird. I don't know whether that's good or bad, but I feel like
It's not bringing us together. No, I think it's serving to really create distance between ourselves and our fellow
man. It's dissonant. Yeah, no question. And I don't
know what the way forward is. I'm a free speech proponent. Yeah, but I think there's also a responsibility that comes with having a platform and I spent a lot of time thinking about what are the kind of conversations. I want to have who are the kind of people that I want sitting across from me and it's not just anybody like I put
Thought into that because people are paying attention. They're listening. They're watching and when I see others shirk that responsibility for the sake of views or clicks. I think that that that that is irresponsible right now, especially in a time. That's so fraud My Hope Is that everybody would be mindful of the types of conversations that are having and I don't think it's enough to just say well, I'm just I'm just
Having a conversation with somebody doesn't mean that I
agree with them. Of course. I've done hundreds of interviews. I'm not going to agree with everything that the person sitting across from me says there's going to be healthy disagreement, but I think that's different that's entirely different from having somebody on who's coming from a you know, a perspective that might get a lot of attention but is potentially harmful especially in a moment where I live
These are truly at stake.
Yeah, and you're in charge of your platform and you can make those decisions and but what happens when those are when it's more systemic than that when it's an AI that is teeing up video after video to people right? Like well, that's definitely what's happening. Right? So if you're one of the people that is that cares about their platform for your own personal, you know you because you have a brand to protect and you have a you have your own motivations for that which are
Personal but also from a perspective of running your operation, but when other people who just want the clicks because it's easier money more listeners that kind of thing then they become part of a pile that an algorithm or an AI right kind of starts queuing up like its own DJ, you know, like like that's a different thing entirely, you know right now which which really brings us to the next thing that we wanted to talk about
which is this incredible pain.
Cast series that the New York Times put out called rabbit hole and I think to preface that conversation. I would say that we all want to believe that we are not only rational sentient actors, but that were not that manipulatable.
Right, right. Yeah and when you
listen to this series you realize
Just how inaccurate that actually is. Yeah, and it speaks specifically and directly to the statement that you just said. So Adam and I talked and we thought wouldn't be found on the show to do a little bit of you know, show-and-tell. I brought the Sprouts but also share a few things that we've been enjoying and the first thing that came to my mind was this podcast series because it had I thought it was superbly done and
Speaks to exactly what we've been talking about, which I think is a really important issue right now the manner in which people are so easily.
swayed by
the vicissitudes of the YouTube algorithm. Yeah, you just I listened to this like a couple months ago. So it's not as fresh in my mind is it is for you because you just listen
to it. I just listen to it. Well, Kevin ruse is the host and the reporter behind it. You know, he's one of New York Times best tech reporters and he covers Facebook and social media relentlessly and really is illuminated many things for me before I started listening to this podcast, but mostly I've been
His posts like he does either daily or weekly post of the most the most view shared things on Facebook. Yeah looking and nine out of ten of them are really conservative write articles and one is like an occupy Democrats article. So it's very political. It just shows you how Stark and political Facebook truly is and he kind of raise that for me while ago with his reporting. This is really interesting because it shows you you know, when he interviews the CEO of YouTube and other people involved, it's almost like
They're surprised like they've Unleashed this AI which is the algorithm. There's operates on its own and q's up video after video for people. Like it's the the podcast opens. If you haven't heard it it opens with someone who has been kind of down the rabbit hole. I forgot his name, but he starts he starts watching Joe Rogan which leads to Sebastian. Melon. Oh, I think is his name. No Stephen Stephen. Stephen. Mulhern you think is his name?
So yeah, it basically
tracks this one young man's trajectory from an average dude and how he becomes overtime radicalized
by virtue of YouTube
and then ultimately how he finds his way out of that
rabbit hole also by virtue of you do yeah and they track they go
through his entire watch
History. Yes, and they look at all the
videos that were suggested to him and you can see this like path at this.
Guy takes from one video to the next to the next to the next how it walks him through this process of ideation where he slowly becomes immersed in ideas that are not his own. Yeah, but he didn't necessarily choose and by virtue of that suggested column on the right hand side of YouTube. He ends up watching and how incredibly influential all of that became for that young
man because they spend hours what
Spent hours watching. Yeah watching this stuff. And that's it. The other thing is you keep hearing and there's at the end of it. There's a story about pizza gate and an older YouTube addict. I guess you could call it or or devotee who literally spent hat was going through a hard time in her life and basically YouTube was the one Comfort she had and she would just watch hours of it in a row and she started with Elizabeth Warren speeches right and ended up in that's right on territory. Yes.
No, so it shows you so a couple things takeaway for me is like I'm thinking I'd like to see a study on AI and the YouTube algorithm and what kind of hormones are going through the body. Like I want I want some scientist that's media scientists to like put someone in the UCLA like Neiman lab put electrodes on their bodies and literally find out what hormones are being secreted in the person by this AI. Well, there are
some interesting studies that are being done right now just got called Tristan Harris who I believe
A former Google executive if memory serves me who started now a foundation. That's that's looking at that very thing. Is that what it what kind of research specifically they're doing but there are very smart people who are paying attention to this
because it really is like getting played like the who's the real tool now like who's getting played right? And the the irony and that of course is that the messaging is all about
How you need to sort of take the red pill and emerge from being play? Yes, but in turn you are actually yourself playing into something else entirely.
It's this it's this interesting kind of dichotomy looking on the left where it used to be like Twitter was this place where liberal rage went to live and Thrive and progressives kind of had their say but really everyone wondered. Well you what are you really doing? You're just tweeting and YouTube. It's like these would be
Well researchers, they really think of themselves as researchers like in Florida that meeting over the masks. Did you see that? We're like a bunch of angry people came up and we're chastising the city council saying I won't wear your mat. This mask is going to kill me like all sorts of crazy shit and they describe them. So I've done my research. The research is watching YouTube videos. I mean, I'm not fucking around like like that's not like that's right think research is like watching YouTube videos like you hear that. It's like I
That is that's scary. Yeah, you didn't know that. No, I didn't know that I didn't come selves as researchers. Now your I did see the woman who
went into Target and pulled all the masks off that they were selling and threw them all in the floor. And yeah got angry wasn't she wasn't mad that she was being forced to wear a mask. She was mad that Target was selling masks because his the repressed rage that so many people are feeling right now that has
Nothing to do with masks. Now. It has everything to do with something
else deeper. What do you think it has to do with because I was talking about this with April like like like to have a society that's reacting this way to the pandemic and and needs YouTube in this manner and is craving this kind of information. It points to kind of a rotten to the core
doesn't it? I think it's disenfranchisement disenfranchised men and powerlessness. Like if you what would motivate you to go and do a Target and like
Knock down a display case of products on it. Unless something was fundamentally broken inside of you. And I think people feel like they don't have a voice and their lives are neutered in such a way that that they're under expressed. I guess it's a way to put it right they may have perfectly fine jobs and you know are able to pay their bills and whatnot. But
deep-seated sense of dissatisfaction or a lack of agency I think alienation that is at a low boil and so you can continue to live your life and it seems manageable and not at some kind of acute crisis level but it's just beneath the surface and all it takes is something like this
that gives them permission to express it
so it's like a man versus machine feeling like you feel like you're being ground up by the Machine by the way life is all the structures are and kind of being put upon you and then ironically your salvation is diving into this machine a i machine and and what a trip that is I mean but I agree with you like there isn't there is something where people are deeply unsatisfied I feel like it's an alienation you feel like it's more exacerbated
It with the with quarantine that it's actually becoming easier to see
horse. Yeah, it's the witch's brew of quarantine and all of the political unrest like it's all of these things are combining to create a very unique situation in which this repressed rage is finding, you know, it's finding its expression in these unhealthy ways.
So trip, I mean, yeah, it's like the the idea with
coronavirus and how some people's
answer don't wear masks. We should go for her to immunity and it'll be interesting to see when there is a vaccine how many of these people
who claim they want her to immunity well line up
well for a shot of herd immunity, so the other thing about rabbit hole that's fascinating is
it's not just about this young man and his journey through the YouTube algorithm.
Them. Yeah it then looks at the origins of Q and on and you hear testimony from these, you know, q and on people and how much they loved it started out as like this community for what sounded like people who are lonely and they really enjoyed chatting with these exactly what you're talking about and that there's something healthy about that. But of course, it's all you know premised upon this q and on
and who we think you got it, we know you
Don't know how cute. I don't know. I don't know but how that then
metastasize into something unhealthy, right? The origins of that were people getting together who were able to chat with each other online, you know on
Reddit, I guess. Well, yeah, but they were chatting with each other about how fucked up the main, you know, the system was well that goes back to the
disenfranchisement right the the lack of agency the feeling that you don't have power over your life and when you can point your finger at something else
South side of yourself and say that's why and you can rally a lot of emotional support around that that becomes a very potent and powerful force.
It's interesting because the two people that the that they profiled first the YouTube algorithm with the the younger guy in West Virginia who was living as grandparents and who became a YouTuber himself, right? And then the woman who was in the hospitality industry and she lost everything in the financial.
Has and then had her home destroyed in hurricane Irma and she got into the que non Rabbit Hole. They both
represent kind of
parallel to the opioid epidemic. It's hitting like it is hitting disproportionately white communities where there is
this this kind of
storm of disempowerment coming through like a guy coming out of college who's like dropped out of college couldn't figure out what he was wanting to do didn't really have a lot of opportunity living in his grandma's house this woman.
Who had hit a couple of brick walls and financially and is now living at some friends house with nothing to do and no job. It's those are the people that are heading there. So there is I wonder what you think that if there is from an addiction standpoint. Do you
see parallels
drive, you know this connection you're talking about they're going for its around a very specific thing that they're kind of tapping
into. Well, certainly
Lee, you know, I'm not a psychologist but I think what is going on is there is once you stumble upon an idea that connects with you like you see this person and they feel like they're speaking to you directly and they're telling you about your problems and they're offering a solution right that's very intoxicating and then you can click on another video and this person's going to tell you even more something is going on biochemically in your brain and as you begin
To calcify around these ideas. Then it becomes a quest for confirmation bias. You're going to click on more and more videos that are going to affirm and entrench that perspective and that's not a left or right thing. This is happening on both polarities of both sides Spectrum. Yeah,
and there's like something happening in these videos. That is very extreme. There's like the more extreme you get the more outlandish you get the bigger it gets like look at pretty pyrite like right here this
and that's in the middle goes through the whole thing with him. Yeah and his growth and how he's got a hundred million something subscribers. I mean who's really the alternative media
now? Yeah. Yeah. It's interesting that's still gets pegged as alternative media and yet that person flicks on a video camera and is reaching way more people than any television
show. The area times has 4 million subscribers. We've got a hundred and thirty million Joe Rogan founder million, doesn't he? Well, that's what's so interesting like you look at
Rogan and
Said this many times before but for a lot of people especially young men. He's the most important
media figure in their life. No doubt about it a hundred percent.
Yeah, incredibly influential and powerful and despite a couple articles about him and his show and his sort of Universe of people that he likes to have on in the New York Times the Atlantic there's been a couple pieces about it. He doesn't
It doesn't come up in mainstream media. It's as if it doesn't exist and yet his what he's doing is reaching way more people than those Sunday morning political batshit political shows where everyone's yelling at each other but you know, it's as
ignorant as I was of pewdiepies Fame like I heard of them, but I didn't realize how big he was and of you know, how many like how mainstream actually this YouTube stuff is like it is
A mainstream. I did know about Rogan and how dominant he was because obviously with the David Goggins book my experience and knowing how what a dominant Force he was but when Bernie Sanders went on there, he was killed on Twitter on the left for like going on Joe Rogan show, which was I thought that was insane that was insane because if you know anything, you know, that's the perfect place right time to go, you know, like if you want to actually you want to win
recruit people who are potentially Trump supporters.
To switch sides you get Joe Rogan to endorse your candidate. Yes. That was the greatest thing that ever happened in the fact that the left railed against that I think shines a light on it really elucidates the systemic problems with the left at the
moment also the lack of understanding of who's actually in charge who's powerful and media right now, like there's a lack of understanding like my lack of understanding was not realizing, you know, pudding pie and all this these
The you know q9 and all I really until I listened to this. I didn't really fully understand the depth of it. I just happen to know about I know about Rogan but like there's a whole bunch of people that don't realize it. I remember having debates with it on Twitter people are trashing burning for going on Rogue and I'm like, no that like, that's the best place to go right like yeah, like that's that makes perfect so I can tell you I've been a guest on Joe show
twice. Both of those experiences were fantastic I get along
Wrong with Joe perfectly fine. I have a huge amount of respect for what he does. And when you go on his show and look the last time I did it it was quite a long time ago. It's grown significantly since then but it's insane like the the spike in people that are suddenly paying attention to you is bananas unlike any other media I've ever done a
hundredfold and I would suspect that David Goggins would tell you the same. He's one of the most popular guest that Joe's ever had on know.
Out no doubt like his numbers spiked significantly after that Joe Rogan a bit. Nothing has even
touched it. Yeah, nothing even comes close. No, it's incredibly powerful and people now I think are more increasingly aware that at least it exists, but I still think there are woefully underappreciated the heft and the power that that program holds at the moment
agreed and it's and the good thing about his program, which doesn't get I don't think a lot of mainstreaming either is that
He's actually very smart. You know, it's he's the kind of person you actually want and he's an
aesthetician and he's very cagey in that. He will say look. I'm just a dummy don't listen to me,
but he's very good at what he does and I can tell you that as somebody who's sat across
from him for six hours talking to him. There you go. So
did you want to get into how the where the q9 went or do you want to get into Cosmic ping pong or not? Really
now? Let's I think we're we'll do we'll save that for another time.
yeah we have some more could monopolize hours
of conversation and I don't want to do that you know lightly
no yeah but you could take a highlight and then all of a sudden that could be in the quantity Q on YouTube and think of all the although here you are as you'll get I'm not doing this for clickbait man
I think one I will say this and then what let's move on and that is that these are not academic problems these are actual
issues that have real-world ramifications and there is no more example that illustrates that better than what happened at Cosmic Pizza yeah when that gun men showed up convinced that there was a child sex ring going on in the basement of this pizza parlor and Washington DC and he in his own mind was well-intentioned he thought children were being harmed because of the
Way
that he had been radicalized
online and and what you just said there shows how we should approach this like it's empathetic and that's how Kevin ruse approaches it on this in this series. And it also is that that YouTube video I reference and I'll send you the link as you should see this this this woman who everyone on online was calling crazy and look at her and ha ha what a joke. She is for railing at this this city council Kevin put
That up and said these issues this is very mainstream. It's not Fringe literally a hundred million people could feel like he I don't forget what his words were but like what she is saying is not Fringe and that's the problem. Right? What she is saying is actually mainstream just like we're talking about what is
mainstream and the solution and which is which is what Kevin did such a good job of portraying the solution is that we have to understand what's going on.
With these people that would lead to this kind of this kind of wrongheaded thinking right like this is a person who is vulnerable for these reasons and until we address the situation that creates that vulnerability. This is only going to get worse.
Well, I think it's a good way to kind of segue into how to feed the soul in these trying times. Yes, and if it's not going to be
yoga and meditation rich, I think it should be queer eye. It should be that's where our good I mean, we have a couple choices here. We have queer eye and we have Kanye. Let's go to her. I first these are all right. These are our chances for Redemption here.
So we were joking recently. I think I was with you and I just brought it
up. Then you watching it with
basically. Yeah, so throughout quarantine. We have all our kids home. We've been having family dinners. There's a lot that's been
Really nice about it and one of the things that we've done not every night, but like a couple nights a week like after dinner or like all right. What do you want to watch? And for some reason we started watching queer eye my relationship with queer eye dates back
to Queer Eye For The Straight Guy like the
original cast all the way back at me and I had no I'm late to the party here because I've never seen this television show. I think maybe I had a vague notion that they had rebooted it and it existed but I'd never watched an episode.
He never watched it season.
Five got released yesterday has been around for five years. I've never seen it. So this is like my big like here's whatever you want. You
watch everyone's like yeah. I know we've been watching that all
along. Yeah,
but I was really
moved by this program like the from the first episode that I
wash I'm like, okay, they're going to it's a makeover show these do who are these guys like they're going to come in they're going to make the these people over without fail every episode of this show that I've watched has been like an emotional roller coaster. It's so
Firing. Yes.
I'm really touched by what these Five Guys the way in which these five guys are able to connect with so many different varieties of humanity and more than that the way in which they're doing it. I think it's really beautiful and so over the course of the quarantine. We've watched the entire Five Seasons. I've missed a few nights you mentioned one episode to me and it's one of your favorites.
I don't think I've seen it yet.
But the barbecue lady loves this show only credible. I've been on it since it started, you know, like so Queer Eye For The Straight Guy for those who have not seen the original. It was really all about getting straight guys to look better and groom better and live better and it was that's what it was about and they were mostly young it was MTV show. I think so. Yeah, at least originally it was for young people this they not only do they choose a diverse cast of people who are multi-talented and extremely good on television, and it's a
Our long but it's kind of adds a home improvement element. That was like it flexes out the Home Improvement at tip to Bobby it also Bobby's a genius Bobby by the way, what he's able to do in five days
in these people's homes is
unbelievable. And then we have this is my hat tip to 10 France. Yeah wearing my tan France approve shirt looks good. I think he would approve and he will your pop of color to I
think it listen. I started wearing a jacket on this podcast when I started watching queer eye.
I so there you
go. But they also chose like it's not just men. You know, it's women it's it's queer people its people who are like even on the gender Spectrum. It's it's real hard cases like the kind of people that you wouldn't expect right this group of gay men to go into and help and it's there's a whole season in the South and Georgia and you are they're interacting with
all kinds of people who for the most
A lot of them I think really had no meaningful relationships with any gay people in their lives ever before and the compassion and the patients and the fun that they bring into these people's lives is I mean, I just I
think and the love ya self love right and and just that's the other huge difference between that
original version. And this one is the self-help empowerment angle that Kurama brings and they say he's like Chromo culture. He's not cold.
This guy is like literally helping these people see their lives with more clarity identifying the the the obstacles that they're facing or what's hamstringing them and trying to help them find a better path
forward. I mean culture came from the original I think like one person's job was to teach them how to eat properly and like to go dancing and these kinds of things and so they that's what they tagged crumble with. But Chromo is a guy who was like think a licensed clinical social worker like a therapist and he's like, he's a psychotherapist. Yeah, and he is
I mean, he will just cut right to the core every time right? Yeah, he got to get that your guy right I gotta get that right. I gotta get that guy in the
podcast. I know he has his own podcast on luminary. He did I think Russell Brand had Chromo on his show. I'm going to check
that out. I gotta listen. Yeah, I got it. I mean that's
got to happen cromoz. Got to get on the show.
And what about JV L JV n i mean has
there ever I mean, what do you even
say? I mean the
Guys, like I don't know what
they're paying that guy but they should like triple it. I mean, he's the most fabulous entertaining unique human being you're ever going to see on television. Yeah, he's beautiful.
He played Carnegie Hall by the way, did he? Yeah, you didn't know that. She I don't know any I don't know anything. He did like a whole like comedy variety show with gymnastics and he played Carnegie Hall. I saw him do the splits. Did you see him? I knew that he was like a cheerleader in his high school. Did you go to the you watch the episode where he went back to his high school and and
Where I'd like the woman who was in charge of all I started watching it and then I had to work and I missed it. So that's another one. You have to go back and watch the whole part about. Yeah, like jvm. Yeah. That's the one. Yeah, I mean that guy
is unbelievable and how he connects with people like with his childlike nature, you know, it's so warm and inviting. Yeah, those guys are doing more for gay rights. I mean the advocacy that's kind of
Behind like it's not explicit. It's sort of just there on the way that they carry themselves. I think it's really
powerful. They just yeah, beautiful human being smart on top of it together and and and empathetic right like they're looking for the places that no
matter who it is. They're yeah, they're always they're not they're not spending any time on the differences or the division. They're going right towards what they can connect with like, what are the similarities? Where's the
What is the way in with this person? How can I relate to them? Yeah, it's cool. It's so I'm five on five years late
to this party. But you're in the back anybody's listening to this or watching this in there. They're like me. I have been enjoying the show and I will judge that war here is the the
final part of the show and tell which is like the cherry on top of this Sunday is I'm scrolling through Twitter the other day and brene brown.
Posted this thing that I thought so great. I love been born a brown. She's another person. I really want to get on the show. I just think she's magnificent. Apparently. She was hiking in the Texas Hill Country, right? She was in Houston, right? So yeah, she doesn't countries more around Austin it is ran off but it sounded like she was out in the middle of nowhere, but
it's all still Eastern, Texas right Austin I used to
yeah. She's out hiking by herself in the middle of nowhere and she stumbles upon somebody sitting under a
Your tree and it turns out it's jvn.
She's like and they both say
apparently according to retreat they both say, oh
my God, is it you because I guess they were supposed to do an event together.
Yes. Yes, so, I don't know just it warms my heart to think those two discovered each other on a trail and had a hike
together. It's great its radical radical love and JD n is is bit of a radical. I like his like politics
he I don't know much about his
politics. He had a yeah, he's all about is all about the right.
Thing it just puts a smile on my face that those two would be out together. And I think we need a little bit of good news. Amidst
all we do. That's right. That's what it's all about with there's there was
that was kind of your win of the week right we're doing that was my win of the way I was your woman named the brene
brown jvn Union that's a win that is a win yeah do you have a win
yeah my win was was the Argentinean who wanted to get back to his ninety year old dad and couldn't fly home because he was stuck in Portugal and there were no flights back into one Osiris and he had a
Nine foot boat and he decided to sail home for his dad's birthday and was at sea for 89 days. He tried to resupply and Cape Verde the islands off of you know, West Africa and they wouldn't take them because they're small island nation and they were careful about the virus and he sailed across the Atlantic all the way down to Mar del Plata, which is this incredible fishing City.
In
Argentina, and he
sailed all the way home to see his dad. He didn't make his birthday, but he he got there and a great story beautiful. Yeah,
trying to think of what I would do for my
dad. Well, that is I mean, wow that hit home because my dad has been having some health issues. Yeah, you know the hospital. So for me, it's like to see that and to see and he had you know, the the Sailor, I'm sorry. I'm
sighs name but we'll put the link to the story in the show notes right yeah some people are sure he can get get it and
lose New York Times story on every time story and he
you know just to to see his own personal growth on that he was a by himself for that entire time he like didn't even fish he couldn't kill anything he still ate his like canned tuna but like he had he's like he's not going to fish anymore he just had this he went through his own you know
Crucible how did he if he wasn't able to resupply he
has he just ordered I mean obviously boats like that we'll have a desalinator and then he had stored a bunch of canned tuna I use most
Testing after canned tuna and whatever else he brought along and no gas because he couldn't get gas at Cape Verde. So he was just like dealing in doldrums and trying to find the wind and trying to stay safe and amazing. Good deal. Well, I feel better. That's
good. Good.
We answer some listener emails. Well, let's take a quick
break and then we'll come back and do a little listener email. Let's do it.
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and we're back. What do you got for me Adam? Okay before we get into listener email. I have my own my I'm a listener. Yeah my own question. Okay, because I know you went to the Sunday service some is it called Sunday service?
Day cognac cognac I doing and I never really asked you about it. But now since Kanye is Right gas is running for is he you never
know like what is this real? Is he running for president? Is this a
stunt? Right? Does he just have a record of
currently. I'm an Elon Musk were together the other day and elon's on board with
this. Yes, who knows vice president Ilan? I don't know any be vice president. Maybe Secretary State likes Henry Kissinger had to be like Secretary of State or something because he wasn't born
here. I'm telling you we
Live in a simulation.
This is this it crazier. It's becoming what you like it's becoming the Watchman. Yeah, only if Kane wins. Will we be at the Watchman but you know, it's good. So just a little background. We don't know if he's running because in order to run you have to get signatures and get on the ballot and different style blah blah who cares about that, but he's already still he's already not. He's already missed the deadline, but there's more there's more deadlines coming. Let's just take a beat on that until we get a sense of what's actually real. Yeah, let's do that. But but tell us
To your story about going to the service because what is he? Is he a pop star spiritual leader? What is
Kanye? What is your I think Kanye defies definition doesn't he? He does? He's a he's a he's you know, he's basically a
cultural icon.
Is there anybody who has who wields more cultural influence than Kanye West?
I don't know Beyonce. Maybe I don't know not not very many people. I mean it's unbelievable. The influence of that guy has had not just on music but on culture fashion a
whole variety. Yeah subject maybe his wife
and he lives not too far from me.
And I remember when he first started doing the Sunday service thing and I thought that's sort of cool. Like wow, like he's doing I thought it was like in his backyard or something like that. Right and I was out running on a trail near my house. Not long after I heard about that for the first time and I started to hear gospel music and I realized oh my goodness. This is it. This is where it's at. It's like it's happening in it was a Sunday morning and I ran they had like
all kinds of security you couldn't get too close to it but I could see from a distance like oh that is the thing and they're all these people there and I remember thinking I got to figure out how to get
in on this like I want to be able I want to get invited I
want to see I want to witness this experience right because this is really interesting and
unique and everyone's dressed in white right
everyone's wearing white they're all there's there's music happening it didn't look like it there were that many people in attendance probably just his friends and his family and I just remember thinking
not only am I do I want to figure out how to be invited to this to see it I'm going to this is going to happen like I just it was a weird for there's no re I
don't know Kanye like I write I have no in or anything like that I
just thought somehow that's going to happen and it did happen in the way that it happened is that our friend Mel nahas I was like out running and I posted an Instagram story and I was like hey you can hear the music like this is my tray like you could kind of just share it
and she saw that and texted me and she's like where is that exactly like I want to know exactly where that's happening and I just like dropped a pin on a map and I sent it to her she's like I'm gonna have my birthday party on that little piece that little mound of dirt out on that trail it's
like good luck figuring out how to make that hat like
how do you even get a permit like
who do you even call just like don't worry about it like
she produces all her Retreat she know she she's amazing like she knows how to figure this stuff out and sure enough she knew
new a park ranger and sorted it out and got the permission to be able to host like an evening dinner party like out in the middle of this field on this thing and on this state-owned Nature Preserve basically so we go to this dinner and there's you know I don't know 30 or 40 people there and it's catered beautiful the sun's setting it's a lovely evening and we're enjoying ourselves and we're of course
I'll talking about like this is actually where this Sunday service thing is going on you know how
how does that like I
wonder what he's gonna do with it and we're all just it's the topic of conversation naturally and in the distance
I see a guy walking up with two little kids like way out you could too far away to identify but dark-complected and I remember joking to Julian Mel's like oh there's Kanye is going to come over and see how we're doing come on and as he got nearer and nearer I was like actually kind of looks like on and and then he just walked right up to our group and I was like oh my God that's Kanye West he's like coming to your birthday
party
now like how about that
so I was like come on we gotta go over and talk to him he was on the other side of the like the where the dinner was happening so Julian I walk over and he's talking he starts talking to Mel and he's with his daughter and his daughter's friend and they had just walked up he lives nearby and he just walked up to his he put these Boulders around the perimeter of it and his kids wanted to play his daughter wanted to play on that so he just came up for no reason just by himself and he's like
what's going on here and we explained to him and and it was wild like he was like oh that's cool like he wanted to know who we were he was very genuine grounded present gracious kind like it was a very cool experience it just talked on and that was that and then he go and then we were and we kind of I was like are we got to ask if we can come to the thing right got it like dropping in he's like here's the number of you know my assistant or whatever like
we'll hook it up and then sure enough like we were able to go the following Sunday so Julie and I and Mel went to the thing and it was
wild you know it was what happens is so far with a sermon or
you use your drive up you you would drive up to this like sort of staging parking lot that was still maybe a half mile away from the actual site and they have all kinds of people and all the white you know and then they're like this way and they're kind of guiding you and what direction to go and
and then you just congregate in a circle around this that he had built up this mound like in the Middle where the choir would went up there all the musicians where they were performing and there were probably I don't know maybe
less than a hundred people in attendance to watch and it had really nothing to do with Kanye he didn't make himself really a part he was participating but it wasn't like the Kanye show it was all about this Choir in these musicians
these humans he put the music together though right I'm
sure he came up with you know the whole program yeah but it wasn't like oh he's going to get on the mic and he's going to talk like it was none of that like he was very much
in the background he didn't say anything no no nobody really said there was a choir director and there was very little talking it was really just
music so it's like the old House of Blues like Sunday brunch with gospel but without the the as I don't know I never went to that so I don't know what that what
that's like and it went on for maybe an hour an hour and a half and it was cool that's awesome it was really lovely great music and it was wild like I was like oh I think that's Brad Pitt over there no way
come on
there are definitely some interesting people there you know but and that was it like then I mean I don't know so
what another thing that was interesting about that is that then I kind of shared a couple pictures on Instagram about how much I enjoyed that and you know people were there were a lot of people that gave me shit for that because
he's a polarizing also Rising he's poor you know he
had worn the the Maga hat and the whole thing and
so for that he'd worn the
magnet I think so I think so and I was just there to experience this creative expression that I thought was kind of an amazing thing
that seems what's most important to him is like right creative freedom and creativity
well
I think I think there is a courage and a fearlessness in his great of expression because he he's not he's constantly iterating right he's never stuck in any particular Lane and the minute you try to Define him he pivots and does something completely different yeah and I think there's a lot to be learned from that in you know and it begins with the the way in which he created his music and how that juxtaposition
deposed juxtaposing that against current trends and Hip-Hop at the time like he's always been an innovator did you see the was a GQ they did a spread on his like Montana Ranch and like oh no plans that he has to these architectural plans for what he wants to do with this property it's like it's wild why does every rich guy have a Montana I don't I don't know
you don't hear of like women we maybe it's Wyoming I'm like Reese Witherspoon is that Montana it's always guys with their Montana
Ranch I guess
Reese Witherspoon's Montana Ranch I've heard about yet she'll have a she probably has a ranch all right so that's the big Kanye story make of it what you will I like the Kanye story I hope he's not running for president personally I think that would be good for our I don't harm and we go all right let's get into John Brown's question it's interesting because it gets too kind of stuff that we were talking about just in terms of personal paralysis and satisfaction or dissatisfaction
now I'm 44 with a wife and three kids and I want so badly to take a bold step into the unknown what advice would you give me if I cornered you at a coffee shop one
morning hey John I'm sympathetic to that question although I have very few facts
to go on here in order to answer this I think the first thing I would say
is why a bold step like what's going on in your life right now where you feel compelled to not just
make a change but make a bold change and I think you need to answer that for yourself first right like what is what's the discontent or the the I don't know what would it call what would you call it like the the lack of groundedness that the that gives you that kind of
anxiousness yes that's right intends to satisfy yeah like
yeah that's what I see in that like why does it have to be bold so understanding that I think it's the first step
to trying to figure out what to do next you have three kids you have a wife you're 44 I don't know what your occupation is I don't know what your satisfaction with your occupation is I don't know if this bold step that you want to make is professional or personal so that makes it challenging to answer this but I think I would I would presume you're meaning professional when you have three kids and a wife
I would caution you from being too bold I think that it's romantic this idea of quitting your job and you know sailing to Argentina with cans of tuna right in your boat or
something like that if he had it bad I know but
I'm just saying like if you're feeling stuck like that you can romanticize these other paths for yourself without fully thinking them through yeah so short of a bold step my suggestion to you would be what can you do right
Now that doesn't require you to burn your life down to the ground, right like whether it's a side hustle or just finding something that brings you happiness that you can lend greater expression to your daily life would be the place to start just because you're you have something in your life. That's not functioning properly doesn't mean that you have to cast aside everything else and and and do something super drastic. Yeah, you know there is
A pragmatism to all of this because those bolts steps. Although sexy have ramifications for the other people in your life. And of course you have to think all of that through so the advice that I would give you if you cornered me in a coffee shop would first be a bunch of questions that we need answered in order to give you that advice, but I think it begins with
being intentional about how you're spending your time on a daily basis and having the mindfulness to carve out sections of your day every single day that are just for you where you can invest in that one thing that one activity that one practice that can bring you a little bit more joy and also perhaps be a stepping stone towards that bold step that you can take at a later
time
love it and I think that mindfulness thing that you're referencing it kind of gets us into the next question the question was from John Pierce tell us about some of your mentors but you hadn't really we don't want to go there so I think a better question is what about you talk about mindfulness a lot so I my question for you kind of piggybacks off John's question would be kind of can you describe your mindfulness practice and and how did you get into it was there a spiritual Mentor or someone that kind of guided you into mindfulness mmm
why would start by saying that my mindfulness practice is far from perfect and I say that not only is a reminder to myself that I can improve tremendously on what I'm currently doing but also because I think people think of mindfulness practices
as some sort of standard that's hard to live up to hmm we quantify it and then say it has to look like this and if you're not doing this then you're falling short and when people feel like they can't do that or they fall off a program then they abandon the practice altogether the first thing I would do is Define what is mindfulness practice mean it can be formal meditation but mindfulness is
broader than that in the sense that
it's something that we can be doing at all times like how can I be more mindful in this moment so that I can impart the best piece of advice that I'm capable of giving well it means that I have to be present it means that I have to ground myself and take a breath and calm my disposition enough so that
what I'm expressing is done with Clarity and purpose mmm so we could be in a mindfulness practice right now hmm mindfulness does not necessitate formal meditation per se but mindfulness is certainly a byproduct of a formal meditation practice so my mindfulness practice involves a combination of formality and informality
I do have a formal meditation practice that I do every morning for 20 minutes I shouldn't say every morning because it's not every morning I'm catching myself in that
but the goal is every morning the goal is every morning and I don't and I
fall short of that all the time so the key with that is if you miss a day not to throw the baby out with the bathwater but just to start again the next day 29 afternoon whenever you have it or if you have 5 minutes or if you have two minutes or if you have time
I'm for one inhale and one XL
that can be a mindfulness practice then it's about a constant process of reminding myself throughout the day
to be more present in whatever it is that I'm doing left to my own devices I'm running all kinds of scenarios like everybody else I'm busy I'm running all kinds of scenarios should have said that why did I call that got back I got to do that thing that person let me down I owe that person a phone call this guy was supposed to get back to me and he didn't you know the drill right so
how can I just let go of that and be present and often that's with paying attention to my breath and also just that gentle reminder like oh I'm doing that thing let's come back to now let's come back to now let's come back to now you think after a while you would have to do that anymore maybe that's true for you not for me but I will say the more rigorous I am in my daily formal meditation practice
the easier it is to be mindful throughout the day the half-life of that meditation practice is longer and conversely the half-life of my varying emotional states is shorter so if I get angry I can get back to Baseline more quickly if I'm frustrated a quick reminder and a back to Baseline and I think that's the real Flex that you get when
build that muscle it's not that you become some Buddha like individual it's that you're more self aware of when your emotions are running you rather than the other way around and you developed a facility to resume a state of equanimity hmm
you asked who the mentors are for this I mean I you know I I've sat with gurus and I've spent time on meditation apps so there isn't one person that I can speak to and I think it's important to not overcomplicate these things if all you're doing is sitting down for five minutes and you're paying attention to your breath and you're inhaling and exhaling that's really all you need to know you can go on your own journey to learn more about all of these
specific techniques and find what resonates for you but I'm reticent to like say this is the mentor this is the person that you should follow I
said it's a degree in divisions very there's some yeah of course the Traditions vary depending but do you is it a silent meditation for you or yeah Mantra at all no I don't ya I'm
not trying I'm not trained in TM so I don't have a mantra it's a silent breath practice and I would say in addition to that
training is an active meditation for me so if I'm out on the trail if I'm riding my bike that's a mindfulness practice and what I would call an active meditation but it's important to point out that that is not a formal meditation practice and I think there's a lot of confusion there a lot of people think well I don't sit down and Lotus position and meditate and I'm not saying anybody has to sit in Lotus position but
going out for a run even if you're not wearing headphones is not the same as a formal meditation practice those it has value but it's a qualitatively different experience and that's something I had to learn because I used to think that I didn't need a formal practice because I go and spend all this time alone out in nature that's good enough but I can tell you from my own experience that the difference in how I feel and how I behave and how I interact with other people and
the vicissitudes of my emotional state are much better when I'm engaged in that formal meditation practice the active meditation aspect of it is a is a sort of cousin that adds additional benefit but not at the expense of the more formal
practice so you just pop out of the tent on the roof and just fold right into the Lotus position and
go I make some coffee or I make a tea and then I and then I do it
it yoga first no no no I tried it I try to do the meditation first first thing before anything because also because if I don't do it right then it becomes less and less likely that it's going to happen so it's got to be the first thing okay yeah and then I will Journal a little bit I do morning pages from the artists way okay and then I either go out and train or I use the time for Creative Pursuits like this book right now so I'm actually not training very much at all
not mind such crazy
deadline when do you watch your keen on videos yeah is that like after lunch after lunch yes could I go my first thing right I wake go near Dive Right
In when you're
maximally receptive yeah I'm zakia's I have research to do so I've gotta carve out like 7 to 10 hours you have done
your research my friend
Lori Marvis
who is the one person you have yet to interview that is at the top of your list and I guess we've already said Kurama and brene brown so maybe got it well yeah those are two that I would like to
get it's funny I don't have like some crazy list like that I mean I'd love to get Eckhart Tolle on he would be great who wouldn't want the rock I mean come on come on right like so we can talk about people like that but it's similar to people always ask me like who you know what's your Five-Year Plan or what's the goal what's the big thing you're worth it
don't I just never been wired like that and I'm really much more in the moment like I'm just kind of feeling what's next so my line of vision isn't laser Don or rooted in like I have to get this person like I have a spreadsheet open where I have I just put names on as they pop into my head or somebody like oh that would be cool so I don't forget but it's not like I'm driving towards any one particular person I probably should have an answer to that question but
I
don't know buddy okay moving on
we'll see who shows up I'm trusting in the universe Adam to do over me the best people
huh but we don't know about that algorithm yeah sure what about the internal algorithm and my head that's deciding if you can cultivate the algorithm within it shall be delivered Anna Nicole oh Anna Nicole how to find your own purpose I've been living a very comfortable life up to now but have really lost motivation to
or take care of responsibilities everything is hard because I'm dragging my feet and waiting to the last minute to complete how does one find their groove again or a sense of purpose when they don't even know what they want I know it's vague but it's how it rolls around in my head I think this one is the reason I put this in a list is because I know a lot of people are struggling with quarantine and know you you've talked about even your own family and issues that would quarantine just like how it's challenging for so many people so I think that that would be a good one to kind of in context of of the moment we're in
now well I think Anna's question is something that everybody can relate to on some level right we're all looking for a greater purpose in our lives and we're all
evaluating how we're living on a day-to-day
basis against some standard imagined or otherwise of what our life could look like so it's easy to say my life's not working I should have this why am I not super excited when I wake up in the morning when I read this question
chin I think where it's instructive is first of all the fact that she says she's living a very comfortable life right so there's almost like some guilt like my life's been comfortable so I shouldn't complain right like I shouldn't I should just be happy with what I have right but at the same time if you're dragging your feet if you're procrastinating there's something that's perhaps a little bit out of function at the moment
so the first question I would ask is what isn't working like perhaps do an inventory of what's suboptimal and try to set aside that guilt like you feel like I'm it's indulgent for me because I live a comfortable life to make a list of things that aren't working because I'm lucky and grateful I'm grateful to have the job that I have or the apartment that I live in or whatever it is but if you can be rigorous and objective in that inventory of what's not working optimally I think that's a
place and then the elusive ever-elusive question of like how do you find purpose how do you go back how do you or if you've lost it how do you get it back and I wish I could give you a pithy answer of here's how you do it it's very difficult right this is a
an individual Journey that's going to look different for everybody but I think fundamentally for everybody it begins with
an inside job like this is an internal search right if you don't know what your purpose is I can't tell you what your purpose is you have to discover that for yourself and that journey of self-discovery requires you to look inward also in a rigorous and objective way to try to figure out what it what what it is about who you are that a makes you uniquely you and be that you feel inspired to uniquely Express
and the only way of answering that question or unlocking it is to not only ask yourself those questions but to begin experimenting right like try these different things what do you what brings you Joy try to remember that thing when you were a kid that you used to like to do not because somebody told you to do it but because you had a natural inclination towards it as we grow older we tend to let go of those things or we shift our are
perspective on them and decide that they are the purview of a young person and as a responsible adult it's no longer okay for you to engage in those things so the more that you can connect with that inner child I think and try to remember what some of those behaviors and activities are and build those back into your life I think is a good means of connecting with yourself that might lead you to some discoveries around purpose and I also think that
um
this can be indulgent so rather than flogging yourself like what is my purpose and I need a purpose maybe just go help somebody else out you know the more that you can get out of your own way and your own self Obsession and just make yourself available to somebody who has less than you and it doesn't mean that you have to go volunteer at a soup kitchen although that's perfectly fine it could be calling up
friend that you haven't talked to in a long time or somebody that you know is having a hard time and just letting them know that you're available to them and I think when you build that into a habit we're being of service to other people in a selfless way is a reflex rather than a burden or an obligation that in my experience and what I've seen with other people is probably the best way to set you on a trajectory that's going to connect you
with some kind of purpose in your life I know for myself when I'm up service to other people my problems don't matter or they get smaller and the truth is when you're the more selfless you are first of all the happier you are the happier you are it's very gratifying when you're helping other people like it gives your life meaning so if when I say how do I find purpose what I hear is like my life doesn't feel like it has a meaning well everybody can build more meaning into their life by helping other
people your life immediately becomes more meaningful when year of service to others
how do you Groove Back be of service to others I love that that's great and experimenting you could even do on a daily basis you can't find your purpose maybe your purpose with a capital P on a daily basis but like I remember I was in New York with my friend Anthony Denby a long time ago and he I woke up I was staying with him and he's like what's your purpose today but what's your intention
today hmm and
and I think I never do that you know I don't like got the specific intention I felt kind of like simultaneously like wow what am I
wrong and then also okay I decide connection you know connect connect and later that day I was on the subway that got stopped in the middle of like the track for 25 minutes and people were losing their minds because they were busy or whatever and this guy next to me was like cursing and freaking out and instead of like just leat like getting up and leaving I started to talk to him uh-huh because that was an intention and that's like what you're saying with experimenting you can start
that he's if you don't know where to volunteer just yet or who to be of service to write didn't wake up and give yourself a purpose every morning what's today's purpose yeah and it can be what I love about that story
is if you decided that day your intention was was connection and you're stuck on that Subway that just means to engage that dude who's having a hard time on the subway and maybe make his day a
little bit better that's it yeah I mean just talk with him and talk through his problem and that's what we did yeah meanwhile there was this weird like six foot five
skinhead that was making like Figure Eight's in the hall like stomping in his combat boots that you didn't want to look at that was scary that guy all right man New York City question 5 Bryant olander asks O'Brien here's a subject that may be at the heart of the Great Divide we are seeing getting wider in America cognitive dissonance to people looking at the same event and walking away with extremely opposite opinions I'd love to hear your
thoughts
well this relates directly to what we've already been talking about listen to rabbit hole and it basically goes down a rabbit hole of how we've arrived at this place I think there's a broader conversation about confirmation bias and cognitive dissonance you know and how the brain works it is interesting that that you know two different people could watch the same news program and walk away
completely different ideas about it and then I think the the larger problem is how entrenched we become in those ideas such that when we're presented with a counterfactual narrative no matter how compelling that narrative it's irrelevant it doesn't matter it's not going to move the needle in terms of how that person is seeing the world whether it's the Trump voter who can't be talked out of voting for Trump or the super liberal person who you know sees the world in a specific
specific way the the idea that you're going to change these people's minds I think is you know we all know how difficult that is and and what is that about right like and I think it has a lot to do with again to bring it back to the beginning of this conversation disenfranchisement and disempowerment as human beings were hardwired to want to be part of a community of a tribe
and we align ourselves with various teams whether it's the Philadelphia Eagles or you know the Los Angeles Lakers like look at Sports and how we try belies that politics are a close cousin of that and I think as
as swath of the population become progressively more disenfranchised there's a sense of lack of control and
I think there's an agency that develops when somebody can latch on to a certain tribe and crafts and identity around that right this is who I am this is my identity and and you get strength from that no matter who you are like if you're in the Democratic party this is who I am this is what we stand for this is our values and I'm going to defend my my membership status in this tribe against everything else no matter
what facts that I'm presented with so then the question becomes how did we become so susceptible to these silos these tribes and why do we cling to them so strongly and maybe it has something to do with the fact that the connections that we have in our own communities I've been fractured and this is taking the place of that whether it's the church
or the 4-H club or whatever it is that in the 1950s through the 70s people used to do within their respective neighborhoods a lot of that is gone away and we've become Suburban eyes dad and you know cul-de-sac eyes to such an extent that we no longer yeah we no longer have those connections that fabric that Weds us to our local communities doesn't quite exist in the way that it
to do so as human beings were finding other ways of doing that so we are doing it digitally and and maybe because we don't have those in person tactile bonds that's why we're holding on so tightly to the identities that we fabricate that are based on ideologies rather than proximity mmm
it's
that's an interesting one I mean
what you're talking what we're talking about is looking at something everyone's watching watching this
same thing and coming away with different opinions but the fact is we're not watching the same thing right so that's also part of it that's part of it yeah so we're watching different angles of the same
thing yeah and well there is no there is no unified source of quote-unquote truth anymore we're all self selecting our information silos we're all on different diets yessica lie
also I think perception of disenfranchisement interesting because
you know a lot of it is perception thing you know like where you perceive yourself in the greater whole and when you there's two ways of looking at feeling small in this big
world to me
the healthy view is I'm a small fragment of this great
web and I'm connected to all
of it and it's all part of me and I'm part of it and there's this there's a sense of responsibility that comes with that and there's a sense of you know humility that comes with that mmm being the small thing spec
and it's you know it's one pixel
yeah in this in this tapestry or this picture you're just a couple zeros and ones yeah that's it matter I was just part of the what the
algorithm that green stream of like characters that's flowing down the Shangri-La algorithm but then the negative view of that is why do I feel so small and these assholes are such big shots you know and like what is disenfranchisement like if you have a place to live and some food on your plate and your comfortable in your warm or whatever like like how disenfranchised should you actually feel so it's like there's all these moving
imparts to the modern world now and there's always been this way and we watched American Beauty other night because we had to go back to the DVDs because our cable company fumbled the ball right on our move and so we were watching that and there's a great scene where the where what's the guy video you know the younger Wes is what's his real name isn't there no you mean yeah the classic scene of the he's dad is like reading the morning paper
and he's like what's going on Dad and the bad guys this country is going straight to hell it's basically always been that yeah it's just a reminder listeners and remind each other these countries always been going straight to hell like I'm sure in the revolution like day after the Revolutionary War and there was like someone complain about it and
every generation is told that like oh it's always been this way every generation says that Ben and then they say yeah but this time it
really is well I got like a piercer
right now maybe it is we can't end on that no no but the point is is that there's always that kind of like this disenfranchisement is a point of view I always think of it that way like we're in charge of our emotional perspective I mean don't you think I mean like isn't that isn't that what you're trying to we try to kind of tell people and telling our kids until everybody is like that no one tells you no one can tell you how you feel or how
you're going to react to something you have control over that yes that agency
resides within all of us and in a culture and a world where we feel like that that our agency has been stripped from us it's important to realize that there are still certain things that only you have control over you can't control the insanity of the chaotic world you can't control what other people are going to do you can't control the news cycle all you
control is your reaction to all of that and how you comport yourself so it always goes back to mindfulness the more mindful that you can be the more equanimous you can carry yourself the better equipped you are to manage whatever problems you encounter whether they be related to disenfranchisement or your lack of sense of control over your life
always turn back Inward and is Guru Singh always says less emotion more devotion I love that right like
rather than getting all emotional about things that you can't control check yourself
what do you devoted to what do you cultivating inside of yourself that can lead to Greater self awareness self improvement all you can control is yourself the path forward is to be the best version of yourself so that you're equipped to handle all those other things that you cannot control
and the byproduct of that is you become a force of Harmony in this world and like dissonant right dissonance in music
as a tool to be used to make people feel and then it always wants to come back to Harmony like the piece of music always wants to come back dissonance always emerges back so that's a better note to end on because it will if we if we cultivate that
yeah yeah agreed yeah I think we did it all right man thanks for having me episode 3 of her
role on I like being your hype man is good man how you feel I feel good I feel good I like it when you read my resume though that that really
oh no I forgot to do that no no you don't talk to you because my wife reads me my resume every night yeah read it to you yeah but sometimes she recorded for you the Romantic resumes that are a lot more impressive if she's pissed Adam
skolnick co-author of can't hurt me author of one breath one breath New York Times yeah contributing writer environmentalist activist and now audio pontificate Ur / hype man
yeah audio pontificate ER that's like the podcast version of talking head right audio pontificate Ur awesome you can find Adam online
you could see his is digital ones and zeros streaming across the Matrix at Adam skolnick on Twitter and Instagram don't forget to hit that subscribe button on YouTube apple or Spotify thanks for listening and watching Everybody check the show notes we're going to put links up to everything that we talked about today
you can find that on the specific episode page at Rich Roll.com and generally on the YouTube version we put links up to stuff as well if you want to contribute a question for us to consider answering on this show you can do that on our Facebook group which is the Rich Roll podcast on Facebook I'll put a link up to that as well on YouTube and the show notes also if you join the Facebook group you can also would be great if you could contribute to that
survey that we put up there as well we should probably think about getting a voice mail option like a few people like yeah we could then we could like play their
audio like question instead well I am getting a landline can I see you in a sign yes I can do
that I think you need it like you get like Google Voice these phone numbers exist like I'll figure that out alright I figure that out and we'll try to move
forward with that and then I will put up a new post for the question so we can have okay alright yeah cool so you can organize them better yeah
awesome man so see back here with another version of this and two weeks until then be well
more devotion less emotion right love it I want to thank everybody who helped put on the show today Jason camiolo for audio engineering production show notes and interstitial music Blake Curtis he's right over here you can't see him for videoing Today Show doing all the short clips and creating all the Social Media stuff thanks Blake Jessica Miranda for graphics Georgia Whaley for copywriting DK also right over here what's up DK
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Tyler Trapper and Hari appreciate you guys thanks for love see you back here a couple days when another great episode I love you peace plants
