Slavitt and Yang Make a Plan (with Andrew Yang)

Ten weeks ago we pass this legislation at that time at that time the mr. McConnell said we need a pause. We need to pause 10 weeks tens of thousands of people have died in that period of time many people have gone on to unemployment at lost their jobs going on to unemployment.

Many many people have been infected by this virus it had that time has taken a toll.

Welcome to in the bubble. This is Zach slavit and Andy. So we're here in August and we have just heard from Nancy Pelosi Speaker of the House talking about the sorry State of Affairs in the Congress where they have actually let unemployment insurance expire and a whole bunch of the benefits that are leaving America. And in the Lurch now, I think that's going to get remedied but it is really a sign of how low a priority.

Rarity the Senate who has had this for several months on their plate has placed on providing the kind of relief that Americans need with 30 million people out of work five million people have lost their insurance many people not sure if they're going to make rent or have food and that is the notion of we are going to talk about on our show today, which is the notion of economic support and how we support Americans to both this tough time and times ahead with Andrew Yang the leader of the gang again my old dad joke.

I couldn't think of a better one. I think you're going to really enjoy this conversation because I think Andrew and I forgot we were recording a podcast and just started like shooting the breeze and a way that was cool. It was fun and you got to hear us problem solve and I think that's kind of what the initial intent of our show when we started in the bubble was to say hey come into my bubble. Listen to me talk to people and my goal

always is to try to get a guest to kind of forget their talking points and just kind of talk so we could kind of hear what to really going on and it wasn't hard with him because I found him to be a really warm open thoughtful person. Just like Zack is hey there Zach. How are you? Good ready to share a fact we would expect nothing. Less. What? Have you got so I want to look at this no Jemma.

Sorry from the 29th and they explored heart damage in the near term and long term of contract in covid-19. And what they found was out of the patient's they tested 78% had heart damage while they were infected even if they showed no symptoms of having it and 60% continued to have them even after they were no longer infected.

But their big takeaway from this is we need to continue the investigation into the long-term cardiovascular effects of covid-19. And obviously nothing is certain here. It's just adding to some concerns of potential long-term effects, even for asymptomatic covid patients. So Zach you're suggesting that people without symptoms or who don't feel sick May in fact

Deb suffering medium and longer-term consequences from covid ass in this study, which granted was not the biggest sample size. There was heart damage in the long term for the majority of patients. However, the long-term impacts of this heart damage is unknown. Wow, so I think we first heard a little bit about this on our episode with Larry brilliant where Larry talked about some of the mysteries of why this really isn't a

Tory disease alone, but why it has other impacts. This is one of I'm sure many studies that we're going to find that's going to help us unravel these Mysteries. Look every time you hear something like this. It feels a little scary. It feels like bad news. But in many respects learning about this disease earlier is good news because everything we learn becomes another problem that our scientists have to solve and have to address.

It would leave one to the view that this is not a virus that we want to get. You know, I'm curious Zach as an 18 year old and I know you said before you have friends that have maybe the view that if they got covid-19 it wouldn't be the worst thing because then they'd have it and then they could get past it and they wouldn't feel sick. Do you think this kind of information is going to change that view? Yeah. I think the important thing to realize is this isn't telling you.

You will have long-term heart problems, but people also have to realize just because it might not be the case does not mean you should act like there won't be any problems. So I think people need to take it into account add it to their cost-benefit analysis of whether or not they can be in certain scenarios certain activities. They can participate in just with that added risk of potentially having some long-term.

That we don't know about yet. So I think you're saying be careful a couple of other quick things before we get to Andrew big question mark in a lot of people's minds particularly families is what to do about school. I've been asking lots and lots of people this question and even had some conversations in the white house with folks and I would say the general tenor is people are more uncertain and worried about the potential.

Shal for schools to create hot spots then they were even a week or two ago. And I think the recent studies which show that even younger kids have equivalent viral loads some studies which are shown kids can be pretty efficient spreaders. No one's clear. We're still in the middle of the mystery and it's a very challenging time to think about sending your kids to school. I think it's fair to say that by and large seems unlikely that that there's an impact that will happen to the kids.

But the impact to the community and to the family upon the spread is something that's still very much up in the air. So we hope to have more in an upcoming episode about this. That would be a toolkit episode around sending your kids to school. Finally. I've written something at that got a bit of attention around what people are calling the slavik kitchen sink approach. There is an interview on Amanpour on CNN and

MSNBC I links to a thread that that alludes to it the kitchen sink approaches and effectively trying to challenge the country to make fighting coronavirus the number one priority and that until we make fighting karna virus that number one priority. We will have a tough time defeating it that only countries around the world that have decided to make this the most important thing. I've done it and the good news is once I have they've been able to do it in a matter of weeks not months or years, but it takes extraordinary commitment from all of us and I don't

I think that that's just there yet. Let's get to entry

How you doing? Hey Andy, how are you?

I'm good. Thanks. You know the thing that I'm most wondering about and I'm sure you're thinking about is how do we support the American public through a crisis like this a crisis where of course jobs have gone away. There's income insecurity. So as you look at how we are doing and how we are doing this tell us how you're thinking about it.

I'm a numbers guy Andy first congratulations to you for everything you've done for the country helping make

Care.gov work and then running Medicare and Medicaid impacting the lives of tens of millions of Americans and then going door to door selling the Affordable Care Act to various town halls around the country. It's really inspirational. We had more folks like you doing what you do. We'd be much much stronger and healthier for it. So, you know, it's a pleasure to be able to meet you. That's kind of you now. I was deeply concerned about the evolving nature of our economy that

and at this one thing that frustrates the heck out of me still is that just no one seemed to care and then even when I came with facts and figures just no one really engaged on the factual level the most common job categories the United States our clerical and administrative work including call centers retail and sales food service and food preparation truck driving and transportation and Manufacturing those five categories comprise about half of American jobs only about

Third of Americans graduate from college. So if you think about the workforce you're thinking about majority High School grads and those jobs. I just described were all shrinking pre-pandemic but then post pandemic you're seeing hundreds of thousands of retail workers at home. Never to have another job in that industry again bartenders Hospitality security a lot of the administrative.

I work that was being done is now getting done by software and machines and AI we're replacing workers and Meatpacking factories and plants because it's safer. So the trends I was concerned about on the campaign Trail are here right now and they just sped up. I've been saying we're seeing 10 years worth of change in 10 weeks because of the the forces on firms and half of firms said that they're going to invest more in automation. No one's investing less anonymous.

So right now everything is just heading unfortunately to the extreme

the stock market's up in part because it looks like many of these major companies can do just fine with lower labor. And of course the stock market likes that do you see these jobs coming back or do you think we are at some stage of a

restructuring Economist project that 42 percent of the jobs that we are losing our gone forever. So if you take as rough ballpark estimates 40 million jobs lost

just 42% would be about 17 million jobs and the Great Recession cost us eight point eight million jobs at the peak or trough depending upon what you know, what graph you're looking at. So we're looking at two times the job losses of the Great Recession in perpetuity, and we have to face facts that that's real that's actually optimistic because that would assume that 58 percent of the jobs come back and even that may not happen. So this is the brutal new

And we have to start adjusting to the reality as quickly as possible instead of pretending that we're going to quote unquote go back to normal at a certain point in time.

So let's compare that to the political reality. If we sit here today, it's a Monday and Mitch McConnell, let the unemployment insurance that millions of Americans were counting on to just get through the last few months expire and he waited several months in order to consider renewing it in order to

put pressure on the Democrats to accept a deal. He couldn't get his own caucus in order. The the moratorium on evictions are disappearing paychecks are disappearing. I we heard from a friend last night who is going to be unfortunately having to sell their home because of what's been happening over the last few weeks. And I know it's a more and more common story. We're not necessarily seeing it all in the numbers just yet. How do you square that political reality where you have a look this purpose of the show is going to get political one side.

Other but will you have at least a part of the our elected officials that don't appear to place a priority on helping Americans even through the emergency times let alone all of the structural changes you're talking about

74 percent of Americans including a majority of both Democrats and Republicans support cash relief during the pandemic and it's deplorable disgusting to me that the Senate has been dilly-dallying to this extent where the heroes I got.

Back in May in what the heck happened, like happened to June and July for the Senate where you know, you're going to make a deal just sit down and make the deal before benefits expire before eviction moratoriums expire. So right now there are millions of Americans or cut adrift. We're not sure where their next meal is going to come from grocery bill payment is going to come from much less rent check mean 30 percent of Americans struggle to cover housing costs in June and that was

Revved up benefits. So you're right that we're not even sure of the Carnage really because for many of us, it's just unfolding and it's unfolding in quarters of society that frankly don't have a lot of visibility where people just don't care that much about the food line and that particular neighborhood being around the block to me cash relief is a bare minimum. We should be doing particularly when you have to say our government has failed us miserably in trying to stem this band.

Tomac and then they're failing miserably in getting enough resources in our hands so that we can actually make it through this crisis period much less do something more dramatic like in here to Public Health guidelines or stay in and that's something that I'd love to talk to you about where I love that. You just called it out recently said look, we know what we have to do to get this under control. We just have to go into more genuine full on lockdown the way other countries have and part of that.

Relief, because if you're going to tell people to stay the heck home and not travel between states not leave for really any reason at all. Then they need to know that they're going to be safe and secure in their homes for a period of weeks.

Right if there's ever a time for a country to communicate to its people that we've got your backs that we're going to get you through this. There's no better time and you're exactly right with that Assurance having one less thing to worry.

A about I'm not going to lose my home. I'm going to be able to put food on the table. And then oh, by the way, now I can see a light at the end of the tunnel because there's an actual strategy and it may not be my first choice, but it's measured in weeks and months. It's not measured in years like the Great Depression. It's not measured in decades like many of the wars we fought and I'll admit me the sacrifices we've had to make but we have to ask for the sacrifice and as part of asking for that sacrifice there has to be that Compact and I worry that we confuse spending.

money during this pandemic for investing in ways that support the public and we've done one and not the other and so I've been fascinated by what you've been saying and how much it resonates and for my perspective you could make an argument that what you're talking about is actually quite a conservative premise that we give people the choice and options on how to support themselves and spend the money that they make that we allow people to think entrepreneurial lead creatively by not having

having to spend so much of their energy and their time worrying about whether or not they're going to pay for healthcare pay for a meal put something on track and I'm familiar with the phenomenon of something that tests favorably with the public but doesn't go anywhere in Congress. You know, the ACA is similar to that I think gun safety is in that camp for a long long time marriage equality was in that camp and usually something has to happen. Usually it's a lot of work to convert something from being where we are with universal basic income, which I probably just as basically

Be able to give it to minute definition from that to a place where we have a political infrastructure that Embraces it. Do you have a sense of what that path? Looks like we're

trying to build that bath right now any thank you for asking. So my campaign, I believe helped introduce Universal basic income as an idea too many Americans and if you've never heard of it before that's on me, so sorry. I did it reach you but it's a policy where everyone in a country gets a

A certain amount of money to meet your basic needs so I ran on a thousand dollars a month. The curtain will leave bills that are being put out. There are two thousand dollars a month for many families the 1200 dollar stimulus payment. So that's like the order of magnitude of what you're looking at and the political infrastructure to build. It is a fascinating project because again right now a majority of Americans support cash relief and Universal basic income is non-partisan in the sense that liberals love it.

Because it's going to improve education outcomes and help feed families and make as mentally stronger and then conservatives like it because it's pro-business it helps support the middle class. It's Pro entrepreneurship and it doesn't have a giant bureaucracy attending to every step of it because if you put money into people's hands then they can make their own determinations. It's based in large part on the petroleum dividend that's been in effect in Alaska for decades.

And that was passed by a republican governor who said look a lot of oil money. What do you what should we do with it? Should we give it to the government or give it to you when the people of Alaska set us, please? And he said I thought you'd say that and then now it's been in effect for a long time. So it's non-partisan. It's bipartisan right now. It's incredibly popular. And

what what does the evidence say? I'm sorry to interrupt you. What does the evidence say looking at Alaska, which was one of the things I was going to ask you about. What does the evidence say happens in society when that form of payment happens? What are some of the other?

Things that start to happen

Alaska's petroleum dividend is approximately one to two thousand dollars per person per year in a one-time payment. So if you are a family of four, you might get $6,000 in one chunk and researchers have found that the petroleum dividend and Alaska decreases poverty, which makes sense. It decreases income inequality. They actually have lower levels of income inequality and Alaska than most any other part of the country it creates, huh?

Hundreds and even thousands of new jobs, it improves child nutrition and health. It's unifying wildly popular where if you pull alaskans they say it's like the best thing that is going on in the husk. So there there are many very positive effects of it Alaska, of course has you know issues and concerns writ large but the dividend seems to improve people's quality of life significantly and

Stood the test of time through now at this point like numerous different administration's because everyone loves it so much

and now you can get to hear is that getting me talk paid for by someone

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if Joe Biden wins for president, which I expect him to by the way, which is visitor today is a good possibility and he asks you to be part of his cabinet you are working on restructuring kind of our benefits and entitlements and support structure for the next decades and generations using some of the principles that you did introduced to the public and I think I fully expect that whether it happens this year the

this decade or whenever it happens your name will be attached to it in some form.

Oh, wow. That's so kind Andy. I mean, obviously I like I don't care if my name's on this one. I'm freakin do it. But thank you.

So if you think about this, I've got a very good friend. Happy power who is obsessed with Ubi ever since she heard you talking about it. She reads everything about it. She sent me a number of thoughts and questions about how you think about

You know, is there a right amount of money is it is it in fact two thousand dollars a month for that. And with that are there benefits that go away. Are you expected to pay for Health Care on top of that or out of that? What does the country need to provide their? What are some of the other components as you think about boy? We can't let this crisis go to waste. I want to structure something that is a vision that we could begin to pursue. What are the components of that and how does that work?

I think this is the time for Universal basic income for sure and millions of Americans got that $1,200 stimulus check in April and they that thought wow, this is pretty awesome attitude all of a sudden turn them into lazy wastrels. I did turn their neighbors and to like, you know different people so I think we need to capitalize on this time. I'm supporting a whole series of candidates and Congressional races who are pro Universal basic income.

And the challenge we have to make right now because there's no political infrastructure built around it as you say and so we have to make it cool for politicians to be Pro Ubi and the way to do that is by making them see that when they say their Pro Universal basic income people love it and it helps them win elections and it gets more people excited about them. And so the way I can demonstrate that hopefully is by helping some people win races on universal basic income around the country. So I've been working hard on that do my

Ation Humanity forward we've also distributed seven million in direct economic relief ourselves to struggling families because it's hard to talk about giving people money unless you give people money in my opinion and I also love giving people money because it's awesome and fun. And if you were listening to this and you have money and you haven't given anyone any money lately, you should do

it. I think you started in one of the boroughs in New York with Humanity forward the cash assistance program. What have you learned so far?

We've learned that people are

Spread and struggling and that is little as $250 can be a lifesaver or game changer for them and we moved fast. So frankly, we're not that concerned about social logical studies our follow-up data and a lot of these cases. We're just very confident that if you are struggling single parent or a struggling family in the Bronx and lost your job that giving you $1,000 was a good thing particularly when it came to people following stay-at-home orders during that time because

so, you know, it's like easier to stay home. If you actually know you can eat and your question about how this fits in or how we build into the future. It's one reason. I was excited to talk to you Andy because to me there are let's say three major things that are making Americans miserable right now number one's Health Care number two's housing number three is education and the cost for each of those things has gone up and up and up even as people thing comes have stagnated and often when I was running for president. I said, hey, we should give everyone a thousand bucks a month.

Then people made it seem like that's all I think we should do which is not the case because to me if you give someone a thousand bucks a month and then they have to spend like 800 a month on their health care plan. That's not very good. And so one of the other things this pandemic makes clear hopefully to everyone is that we cannot have Healthcare tied to your employment and that we need to have some sort of public option Medicare for all.

Program that folks can access without breaking the bank or without optimally not even without breaking the bank like merely cost-free would be the best way to go, you know, maybe up to pay some tiny copay just to like have like a little bit of sort of friction. Right? But that that to me is like a very very big necessary step and one reason I was excited to talk to you is that you've had so much experience with these systems and

I'd be very interested as to how you think we can best perform this whole crazy tangle Healthcare bureaucracy that you presided over not so long

ago. Well the thing about Healthcare and you pointed out one of the the really important pieces is if you actually really deeply pull people, you know, you don't just look for the you like this you like that but you really deeply try to understand people Healthcare turns out to be a bigger economic issue.

Shoe than their tax rate than virtually anything else because for you know for just about half of Americans a single medical expense and they are in bankruptcy. The number one phone call to the American Cancer Society hotline when people are newly diagnosed with cancer is I cannot afford to have cancer. It's not what are the treatments it's not where should I go people's first thought is I can't afford this in this country 40% of people.

Don't fulfill a prescription in a given year, they get the prescription from the doctor. They go to the pharmacy. They find out the cost and they slink out and they do without so we're not almost at the stage of not being able to support our citizens health care. We're past the stage and health care has become so political unlike Ubi which I think I would I will advise you to figure out how to keep that in as a safe Zone that people forget that there's a fundamental value that people have which I stayed the

Following way everybody wants to be able to afford to take care of their family. If someone gets sick and keep them healthy people aren't necessarily looking for handouts and they don't necessarily care how it happens people some have some political preferences and so forth, but the idea of being in a situation where you can't afford to care for your family as an existential feeling much like well you're talking about where people are not able to deal with housing or put their kids in school or the kinds of things that so many of us have taken for granted.

it here

and kudos to you for talking to Real Americans of different political backgrounds and affiliations about these issues over the you know, like like because I saw you say, it's like look I can connect with just about anyone over like their experience of the Health Care system because like everyone has a terrible experience or fear right

start micro, right your point a you gotta get up to the data and you got to fly over and see the numbers but you got a flag low enough to the ground that you hear about someone sister who couldn't afford something and

And

she got that story now when I was running everyone had it,

right we all we all have those at their horrible stories and it's a complex system. But I think if I were going to point out a few things and I think they fit in with where you're headed one is exactly what you said, which is we have wedged our ability to Access healthcare to our jobs. There's no reason for that and particularly if I listen to you for a few minutes talk about where the economy is going where it new types of jobs are being created. What Zach who you'll hear from in a second.

Is going to be doing with his life. We would say it's going to look a lot different than going and working at IBM for 50 years that doesn't exist anymore today. It's certainly not going to exist in the future. The second is you know, we've established two powerful role for the middleman insurance company and one of the things that happened during this crisis is all of us paid a bunch of premiums to insurance companies and then we didn't go to the doctor. And so what happened the doctors and hospitals ran out of money and the insurance companies made billions.

Billions of excess profit for doing nothing because they sat in the middle and collected all this money and that's not the way it's supposed to work. There are functions that insurance companies do that are valuable. They pay claims they coordinator. They do some of those things but those are those things should be in the background not in the middle and the core of the relationship. I believe should be you establishing relationship with a medical team at care team a doctor

me accessing care. Yeah, but I don't access care what the heck just happened there

put them behind you exactly and then the third thing at it's the one is probably the most

Challenging and in some respects parallels our country as much as anything is the inequity in the Health Care System. We can fix those first two things gradually over time with legislation with reforms, but our Health Care system is designed to deliver worse outcomes for people whose lives aren't simple people who don't have access to daycare who may not speak English as a first language who live in a rural community any variety of circumstance, which would put them a little bit on the margin our health care.

Um is complicated enough if you know what you're doing, but if the system is designed for you to come to it, and so there's an extraordinary opportunity there to make Healthcare System both more Equitable and more Innovative by getting people where they live by hitting people at home by using some technology now, I will I tell people and I had we had Bernie Sanders on two weeks ago that there's not one bill. There's not one stroke of a pen that fixes the Healthcare System there have been hundreds and hundreds of follow-on bills to Medicare and Medicaid and it makes sense because Health Care system is

A changing so the Affordable Care Act, you know ten years ago if it did its job, right? It would get it about 75% or 80% right? Because it can't possibly foresee every circumstance and the job of Congress is to put follow-on legislation together, which is oh this piece worked this little piece didn't and let's keep adjusting along the way and of course the Republican Congress decided that it was going to exploit that twenty to thirty percent that wasn't working rather than fix it. And of course over time. That's just

Going to grow if you don't change legislation, so you need a committed political infrastructure that's committed to the public it to the public good and if you don't have that if people are going to play politics with Healthcare and you know in this current crisis, I just can't help but be where you are on where the Senate and the White House is on providing benefits for people in the face of the larger crisis as we are

we're we're so far behind the rest of the developed world on this you look around the world governments.

This pandemic and said, okay, what should we do and they put thousands of dollars into the hands of their citizens and families and here we can't even get that done. It's very very infuriating to me. But just another in a whole Cascade of failures such a heartbreaking time to be an American where like a basket case compared to the rest of the developed world and on so many levels.

I want to come back and ask you the question of if we're going to get

better and how we're going to better but would you be willing to take a question from Zach? And the meantime?

Oh, yeah, of course.

Yeah, I'd want to shift a little bit to the pandemic response. And I'm just wondering what do you think the government could be doing but differently right now to better help small businesses and restaurants as opposed to the stock market.

So to return to a point your dad made before stock market prices are at record high is because investors are looking up and saying oh these companies are going to do fine. No matter what

Whereas hundreds of thousands of small businesses are shutting their doors for good forever and that's devastating for so many communities small businesses and employee more people in big businesses. If you look around so one of the ideas that Mark Cuban had which I loved was that they should put money into our hands that essentially use it or lose it and can only be used at various types of businesses like small business owner or locally owned businesses. He actually was a fan of the user lose it I was a fan

of the just for locally-owned businesses and the people think that's too far out the UK is literally paying half of your dining out Bill if you were to go eat out because they said you know what we need to help the restaurant sector. So if we believe in small businesses our government could easily give us all credits that can only be used at local small businesses. It's going to take that kind of measure to help these businesses make it because the fact is a lot of mom-and-pop Main Street businesses. We're struggling even in

All times you have Amazon does hoovering up twenty billion dollars in business with its trillion dollar market cap, and it doesn't even need to make money. And so you're a normal Main Street business. You've had a hard time competing even pre-pandemic and post pandemic now, it's impossible. So we have to take massive massive steps if we want small businesses to have a chance at reopening in the days and weeks to come and I'm very disappointed that we're not doing more.

Do you think Ubi effectively trickles down into small

businesses a ton of basic income would go into small businesses and just anyone listening to this you just reflect if you had an extra let's call it 1,500 bucks or $2,000 a month. Is that going to go to your local grocery store car repair shop babysitting tutoring though. I guess the tutoring might be online depending upon your appetite for maybe they could to your kid.

From 7 feet away Outdoors, you know during the summer. So a lot of our money would go straight into those businesses because that's just the way we consume some of it would go to big businesses. But a lot of it we go to small businesses. So Universal basic income is to me the first most effective thing we could do that would help small businesses survive, but I would be willing to go much much further than that and have funds specifically directed towards locally owned businesses because I think they're so important.

Don't go anywhere. We've got to go earn some money to donate to charity.

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Let's talk about how we get from where we are to better place. And you know, I mean I could tell from talking to you that you like me our first and foremost thinking about the person listening who is feeling financially insecure today and wondering how they're going to get from here to there and wondering if the government's going to support them. So maybe start with just how you think this will work out. What will the Congress do do you do?

You see them getting to a bill what is support look like to get out of the crisis.

It seems like everyone is settled on some form of Direct Cash relief twelve hundred dollars. Let's say unemployment benefits are up in the air, but I believe that something is going to get done on that front as

well. $400 sounds

like yeah that I mean that's where they're negotiating right now and there's some political sensitivities around corner quote paying people not to work which is utter balls it is

Not borne out in the vast majority of situations. And of course for me, I prefer this to give people money unconditionally like the same those payments and then you can get away from the entire discussion of whether or not your quote-unquote paying people not to work or what not. There's a cares act that dozens of members of Congress have supported and in the Senate Bernie and Kamala and others and Ed Markey have supported in the Senate. So there are different versions of revved up casually builds that I think go hand-in-hand with your suggestion.