Coming out the research. I just came off of perder to lead. Seven years studying, kind of really top-performing leaders across every from athletes to Fortune, 10 CEOs, Civic leaders. Just across the board asking one question, given the complexity that we're living in right now and what the future looks like. What's the one thing that you're going to be looking for in leaders? Like who's going to be still standing as a leader in the next five years?
And it was the first time I've ever done research, where the answer saturated across every single participant. And without question, people didn't even hesitate. They just said, courage, we need braver leaders. We need more courageous cultures.
Alright, welcome back or welcome to the finding Mastery podcast on Michael Gervais by trade and training, a sport performance psychologist, as well as the co-founder of compete to create. And if you're new to the podcast, the whole design of this podcast is to study learn and apply the insights and practices of people who have walked in extraordinary life. And what we want to do is understand their psychological framework.
How they organize their internal external world to walk the path of Mastery. Then we also want to understand what they're searching for, what they're aching for where that craving comes from. And as well, very mechanically understand the mental skills that they've used to build and refine their craft. Okay, before we get into this week's conversation. I just want to take a quick moment to talk about our new partner, Carol. I don't know what you're doing for fitness. And so there's lots of different things that you can do, but when it comes to cardio, Carol bike has something that
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Brown a research professor at the University of Houston, where she holds the Huffington Foundation brene, Brown endowed chair, at the graduate college of social work. She's made a noticeable dent in the field of Wellness of doing well and being well in the world. And she spent the last two decades, studying courage, vulnerability, shame and empathy, and is the author of five. Number one, New York Times Best Sellers, and so the titles are the gifts of imperfection.
Daring greatly Rising strong braving the Wilderness and her latest book dare to lead, which is the culmination of this seven-year study on courage and Leadership. So this is speaking right to people who want to understand that brave thin heard territory of what and how people that are extraordinary at what they do, how they lead with courage. So Bernays, tedtalk, you probably heard of it, the power of vulnerability. It's one of the top five, most of you, TED talks in the
World over 35 million views. So she's got a real Rich point of view that has reached many and been inspiring that. It's been that Viral the relationship between vulnerability and courage is the focal point of our conversation. In, in bearnaise words. You cannot get to courage without walking right through vulnerability. And so we get into like, what is courage. What's it all about? And when is the right time to be vulnerable, whether that's with loved ones, or in the corporate world?
Old. The challenge is, do you have the courage? Do I have the courage? Do we have the courage to say or to do the difficult things? And you've heard me talk about the razor's Edge. We talked about the relationship between the razor's Edge and courage and how that works together. And if you're a leader and you're leading and you have the fortune to be able to serve people from that position. Do you have the courage to create a culture that actually allows for people to fail to fall in their faces and to get back up again? And that
Entre, you know, fail, fast fail forward. It's got to go much deeper than that. And so we get into the weeds there. So Bernie has this amazing way of putting her Research into action with simple and applied strategies, so I can't wait for you to learn from her. And so with that, let's jump right into this conversation with brene. Brown burn a, how are you?
I'm doing great. Yeah, I'm excited to be with you. Yeah, this is fun. I've been wanting to have this conversation with you for a long time. So I'm super psyched as well.
Me too. Every time I've seen you a couple places when we're both kind of traveling and we meet up and I'm like, we need to have a conversation. It would be really interesting. Yeah, for sure. Okay. So first of all, as we get going, congratulations on your body of work, it's significant, you've made a dent in, you know, human wellness, and that is no easy task. So congratulations.
Thank you. I love it so much and I'm for sure have learned way more from people than I'll be able to teach, so I'm grateful for that. Yeah, I when you say that I feel, I feel that tremendously and I also I don't know if I'm as free as you are because you feel grateful. I feel almost burdened and I don't know. I don't know if you feel that or that's unique to me, but I can't quite figure out how to get everything out that I've come to.
And or that I wrestle with it, I think I'm on to something. I don't have the mechanism to get it out and you have gratitude for all that you've learned which I certainly do as well. But do you ever have that other side? Where verdant hell yeah. Okusama. It's okay. What is that like for you?
awful sometimes, especially because I look at my work from like a perspective of being a steward of people's stories and struggles and what they've shared with me and what is the best way to
To take those and make sense of them and get them out to the world and order to be true and loyal to the people who shared their hard stuff with me. So I put myself under massive and massive amounts of pressure and it does feel really hard sometimes and
I remember like maybe, I don't know three or four months ago. I was walking with my husband and we were kind of walking through our neighborhood one evening. And I was right on the edge of burnout and, you know, I'm like, I wish I could just like, God or someone would say, okay.
I think this is enough now like are you can just rest or but and you know, he's like that's not good for me. Like I don't think you need like he's like you're getting everything out that. I'm like that I've learned so much from people and people who could have done such Brave thing sharing things with me. And I just feel like
Am I good enough? Stuart of it, you know. And he's like, yeah, cuz like, what's the option? The alternative is that you work? 20 hours a day, you know, seven days a week 20 years in a row and just collapse. And he's like, that's not stewardship either. Hmm. Yeah, so, you know, and he owned and then I realized like
In addition to sharing, what I've learned from, people may be the best holiest form of stewardship, is actually practicing what I'm learning from people.
Which is, you know, rest play Reset recover and not just talking about it and doing it was funny. I was I was in Las Vegas giving a talk and I was talking to another speaker who kind of works in my area, your area kind of leadership performance. He's like, so how often are you on the road? And I said, oh I do like maybe 35, 30 events a year. Max and he goes man. I do throw. I'm on the road 300, 300 days a year and I was like how
How do you walk the talk?
Like, if you're only home, sixty five days a year, like I'm like, like I would feel like first of all, lose my mind because I'm an introvert and a homebody. But secondly, I don't think I would be practicing what I'm learning if I do that. So, yes, the and the long answer is I sometimes, do you feel like am I doing enough? And it? And I feel that pressure? Okay. So you shared a story with your husband. You started this off with your husband.
You have a long relationship with your husband. Is that right in 30 years? Yeah. Congratulations. There to how I okay. I think that my wife is at Ground Zero for every inside I've had. And yes, people have shared and I've been an extraordinary places and but it feels like my most important sounding board is my wife. And I don't
That doesn't get celebrated enough and I'm wondering if it sounds like you, maybe have a similar mechanism that you talk through. Quite a bit with your husband is, is that the case or am I making too much of the first story that you shared? I think when when the planets are aligned and we're doing the work, we should be doing, we are Steve and I are each other's best Partners best sounding board best.
Counselors best confidants. I think that is. You know, I think that's where the magic is. Does it happen all the time? Know, sometimes we just, you know, he's a pediatrician and he's got a, you know, a big career and a really committed practice. He, he does Private Practice, but he also works with undocumented kids and a school-based clinic and so
When would when we're working the work and doing what we're supposed to be doing, we are each other's best sounding board. Yeah. What is your work look like when I say when Steve and I are doing our work, meaning we're prioritizing the right things that where, you know, shutting out the noise and getting down to what's really essential and important to us. When we're investing in when we're investing in our relationship, when we're doing,
Those things were showing up with each other. We are. I mean, really it's about making time for each other and prioritizing each other. Then we become each. Other's greatest competence greatest counselors greatest sounding boards when we get sucked into the noise and bullshit and lose control over, we hand over.
Our agendas and our lives to other people and other things in order to. I don't know why we do it, but it's a pattern, I think for all of us. I think it's because things are bright and shiny. And we want to try them or we feel obligated, or we sit fill sense of Duty or we don't want to piss people off when we're not doing our work. And we're letting other people set our agenda and our priorities, you know, two big careers to kids can be can create a lot of distance between people
So I think when I talk about our work, I talk about the work of showing up with each other and investing in our relationship because if it's not working, nothing else is working. Hmm. And do you have any practices that help you with that? And I'll share one of mine is like, when I come in after whatever day long day, short day. It doesn't matter. But, you know, most of my days are really freaking intense, but when I come home, yeah, I take a moment. I put the cell phone down and that's like a big trigger, right? And I take just a moment.
Want to walk into my sanctuary and it's just like standing in front of the door or in my car as I'm pulling the garage, whatever. And I just take a moment, a beat to remind myself that. Okay. I'm heading into my sanctuary and that that's a nice little piece of work for me and when I'm off that number awesome. Yeah, and like, do you have any little triggers or practices? That are part of that work of creating time and having priorities be aligned?
You know, when we first got married. And I remember who told me this, but someone said, hey, you know, the fifth marriage is 50-50. I was like, yeah, they're like that's total bullshit. And I was like what? And they said, the only ones that last are the ones where, when you have 20, your partner can come up with 80 and when your partner has 10, you can come up with 90 and when, you know, and so I was like, wow, that's really interesting. So we started doing this thing, where we would check in with you, we check in with each other and we'll say like,
Look, yes, you might say. Look, I'm Max 25 and like I got you. I got 75 in me. What do we, what? You know, let's do it on some days and this has been the most profound helpful thing. I'll come home or he'll come home, and we'll week each other. And I'll say, you know what? I got 20 and Hill, but he'll say, you know what? I got 20 and we, which is super great. Because it will say, okay, we've got a big-ass gaping 60%.
So, whenever we have the Gap, we always say, okay.
We are extra kind extra patient and watch what we say to each other. If there's a gap.
Like we just named that thing like, you know, because when I travel for work, I travel, you know, I can travel a lot especially if I'm on a book tour, some kind of intense demanding, you know junket and I'll come home and I'll have 10 man. I will really especially as an introvert. I'll come home and I have to do media. Oh my God terrible. So, you know and I I used to make up this story that he would be staying at the back door, you know, and opened up and say, hey baby, I got 90. It's okay, but he's like
Opens the back door and he's like, dude. It's a good thing. Your home because I got ten kids are making me crazy. I've got to make brownies for this tomorrow. I've got three patients. I got to go. See I'm on call in the hospital, you know, and I'm like, no, no. No, I'm the tired one. He's like tired. You been in hotels. I've been, I've been here with kit with sick kids. And so then we just started going. I just open the door. I'll be like 10. He's like 10. It would be like, okay, we gotta love us up. Some
Because it's really good. Yeah, so there's a said, this is in principle around carrying water. I don't know if you've ever heard it but it's a and it's about relationships and Partnerships. And so as the parable goes, is that there's each person is carrying two buckets of water. And at any given point in time, one of the two people can put a bucket down, but the other person has to pick it up and carry three buckets. And, and one person could
Buckets down and that's okay. As long as the other person's willing for an extended period of time to carry four buckets now, okay, so it's the same principle that you just shared, right? And and so that's the there's a Zen Parable around carrying water for each other, and that being said, it creates a nice little image right now, what you've done and I think you've done really well, is you make it super applied like coming home and saying you create the framework like, hey, the the 100% effort thing or the hundred percent.
ENT resources and then making it practical about I'm at 10. You're at 90. Perfect. And so your work really has had this advantage or not Advantage. But accelerated, I think Whirlwind for people to become attracted to because you're speaking truth about principles and then you make, you've created very applied strategies for people to practice.
And one of those strategies, you know, early in your most recent book is Tara, Tara, but a CREDO one inch by one inch square. This is really good and put the people on it that like matter. Most to I think is that the is that the exercise? Yeah. Yeah. It's it's your, it's your Square Squad. It's, you know, in a world full of kind of criticism and cynicism, and fear mongering, you know, you have to let in some feedback about what you're doing. Because feedback is a
We important part of Mastery but there are a million cheap seats where people are just hurling hurtful things and they're not brave people. There people who they've for somehow think their vocation is just tearing down people who are trying to be brave and try new things. And so what I tell people is get a one inch by one inch piece of paper and write down the names of a people whose opinions of you matter and it in and you shouldn't need more than a 1 inch by 1 inch piece of paper. It's you know, 53 26, maybe people.
Oh, and so I think the hard thing is that.
People people believe that.
Be, you know, being defined by what other people think.
And this whole new kind of I don't give a shit. What anyone thinks people think that those are Polar Opposites when in truth of the exact same thing?
Like caring, what everyone thinks and not caring. What anyone thinks are both super problematic. I mean, when when you care about when everyone thinks you lose the willingness to be vulnerable and to put yourself out there when you stop caring about what anyone thinks that all you lose your capacity for connection because we're hardwired neurobiologically.
To care about what people think so our job becomes to get specific on Whose opinions matter and find the people who love you, you know, not despite your vulnerability, not despite your imperfection, but because of it, find the people who will say, you know, what, you're right, the way you showed up in that meeting sucked. It was inappropriate out of your integrity. You got to clean it up and I'll be here. Supporting you while you do that and I'll be supporting you again when you're brave again.
Again, but right now you do I you know, not, yes, people but real people whose opinions of you matter and carry it with you. So when you're, you know, trying to hack into the back end of the Amazon to see who have to shitty comment about your book, you think to yourself, you know what? You're not on my list.
Think what you want. I've got my list of people whose opinions matter. Okay. I want to take a quick little break right here to talk about hiya typical children's vitamins are basically candy in Disguise filled with teaspoons of sugar on healthy chemicals and other gummy junk that growing kids are not going to benefit from. So that's why. Hiya was created the pediatrician approved. Super-powered chewable vitamin high is made from a blend of 12.
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Sak AR a.com slash finding Mastery and again, it's 20% off your first order. You can also use the code finding Mastery 20 at checkout. Now, let's jump right back into our conversation. So in sport for mental skills, I talk about front-loading. So get the work in ahead of time. So you can go play and get free in environments of consequence or stress or whatever. And so, that framework, that you have is really a front loading concept where you're saying,
Okay, let's make sure that we're clear on who matters, so that I have addling right feedback loops and I can bounce things off the right people and it's a, that's a beautiful practice and it's eloquent applied. You know, you've got both of those pieces. I think in your in your strategies and then you know, kind of run a concept by and just see what you think about it. Totally. Okay. So you've heard a fomo fear of missing out. Yeah. You heard of Your Love Like You Only Live for you only once. Okay, so I want to introduce one and I wonder
I'd like to hear what you think about it. So faux, paux cute. Yeah, faux paux. Okay, fear of people's opinion. And I think it's one of the greatest crippled errs of potential and you know, we play it safe and we play it small because we're afraid of what will happen on the other side of the, critique of the exposure that happens when people have the opportunity to say thumbs up or thumbs down, right? And so I'm wondering what you think about faux pas.
Whoa.
Oh, I think it's real. I think it's alive. I think it's super scary right now because
There are, you know, a lot of my work is you know, the epigraph for my work. I think for the last probably five years has been the Theodore Roosevelt quote. It's not the critic. Who counts the man in the arena. Yes. So yeah, doesn't it? Yeah. Yeah. That was so good. It's like, you know, it's not the man. It's not the critic. Who counts, not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles or where, the doer of Deeds could have done it better. The credit belongs to the person who's actually in the arena whose face is marred with dust and sweat and blood, who strives valiantly who heirs who comes up short again and again,
Again, and who in the end, while he may know, the Triumph of high achievement at least when he fails, he does so daring greatly and faux paux to me, is exactly about the cheap seat feedback. Like there are so many people in the world today that will never step foot in the arena.
They will never ever show up and be seen and heard because they can't control the outcome. Yet. They are so free with their opinion around other people's real Arena moments. People really stepping in and stepping up. And I think we have to get to this place where that photo that you're talking about.
We have to see that for what it is and it's a life-changer. Like, I have interviewed people in their 70s and 80s that have such profound regret and sorrow and grief.
About the things they didn't try the chances. They didn't take that. Not saying I love you first.
Because they had so much fear of what other people would think. And I think it's, I think it's, I think it's actually lethal. I think Bobo leads to addiction depression. Lethargy, hopelessness. It's terrible. It's an epidemic. It's a pandemic.
Yeah, I'm with you right there and especially with social media as an accelerant. It's like the the gasoline that jet fuel on that you know that flame that is. I think it burns so much of so many of us and you know, I so as you read Teddy, Roosevelt's Theodore Roosevelt's, President Roosevelt's Insight. I don't know if you've had the chance to read his full, 1902 starborn Paris. You probably have. But I have yet.
Talk about incredible writing like, oh my gosh, like how attic? Where have we lost the ability to actually articulate? Insights in such a poetic way. And now I don't know if he wrote it, you know, presidents didn't have help there. But my goodness that is in. So the insights that you have again, Bernie. This is where I love your work. Is that you take an Insight, then you make it super applied. And that's what I really appreciate about your work as you say. Okay. Listen.
And so there's the Insight man in the arena, is the one, you know, the counts basically. Not the critic and I don't, here's the applied part. I'm not going to listen to people that aren't in the arena, if you're going to take shots and you're in the arena. Okay, I might add you to a square, right? I maybe maybe if this is a good Rumble, then I might add you to my square. But if you're not in the arena, listen, I got no time for the noise.
I just can't. And I mean, it's one of the, you know, when I came across that quote, during a really hard time in my life, the three things that became really clear as one, I'm going to live in the arena. I'm going to choose to be brave and 400,000 pieces of data that we've collected so far. What I can tell you is I've never met a single person who's been brave with his or her life who has not had their ass kicked.
I, you know, yes, you
have to be brave. You're going to fall, it's the
Of Courage, you know, like you put yourself out there, you're going down and so to me, it's the question. It's like my Mantra every day where you have your Sanctuary moment when I, when I wake up every morning, the two things I do before I let my foot hit the floor is I say out loud, courage over comfort.
Like, I'm going to try to choose what's Brave over. What's comfortable today? And then I say just grateful for another day to try it.
But I, but so, the first thing I learned is like, if you're brave, you're going down. And it's really funny because I do a lot of leadership work and people will say, the only people who don't say this. Honestly are, I do a lot of work with the military even Special Forces. They don't push against this and athletes. Don't push against this but in corporate and, you know, Civic organizations, I'll talk about this quote and and they'll say, you know what? I want to be brave. I am willing to risk falling and I said, man, you're not
Me, I'm not saying that. If you're brave, you're going to risk falling. I'm saying if you're brave enough, often enough, you're going to get your ass
kicked. Mhm.
And to go to your front loading.
Paradigm, one of the things that emerge from this research that we just did on Courage building, is that
Men and women who are taught how to get back up after a fall. Are braver because they believe in their ability to get back up when it happens. Like it's like for some weird reason we don't front-load
bounce.
Like, we try to teach people how to get back up when their face down covered in sweat, and blood and dust in that Arena floor. And that is a terrible time to teach people how to get back up the perspectives. Wonky. They can't hear you. They feel beat up. So when we on board people in our organization, it's like we're super, glad you're here. Here's your ID. Here's how the insurance works. And here's what failures going to feel like. And here's what we're going to expect you to do when it happens. And we will expect you to fail.
Because we will expect you to be trying new things.
Like you got our front load.
Rising.
Yeah, and you know what happens? I think what I've learned is I'm nodding my head that during exactly what you're saying, especially in the Contour, the comparison between special ops and Athletics, Elite Athletics for sure. And the difference between corporate worlds. And in the corporate world is a great phrase that emerged about 12 years ago. Fail fast fail forward fell often, but it's complete bullshit. It's not real because you know, what if you fail
And you fail fast, and you felt, we say that they say that, but at the point of failure, there's a noose around your neck that you didn't realize prior to the failure. And so, as soon as you see one person that's failed, and then everyone else realizes that. Oh, my God, they had a noose around their neck. Whoa, they're out of here. Look at that. Like they're not included in the meetings anymore, that it sends a ripple effect of what's real. So, the language and I think you'll appreciate this from like your understanding of addiction and codependency.
See is that when language and words, I'm sorry, when language and actions don't match. There's something crazy taking place and that's what we find in corporate cultures is that language doesn't match the action and it's not that they don't want the, they won't most of the people I've worked with that are Fortune 50, like real game. Shifters in corporate world's is that they want the best, they really do. But there's some sort of Disconnect between the body of the
Of the organization being able to be as Nimble as some of the leadership would hope. And I don't want to be pollyannish because, you know, there are there are tyranny tyranny, you know, tyrants in the world. But anyways, I know you had some thoughts there.
No, I mean, I just I'm just shaking my head crazy. Yes. I think everything you said is exactly true. It's what I witnessed all the time and I do think
I actually this is my personal belief probably based on my own face, but I do believe in the inherent good of people. I do think they want the best. I do believe that people by and large are doing the very best. They can with the tools. They have at the time. I do think we can all get better and grow but I I try to work from a very an assumption of generosity toward people. I do think there are some tyrants and scary despots, but I think what makes everyone I think what gives everyone
Capacity for tyranny is fear.
But I think what you're saying about the fail fast, movement is just kind of heartbreakingly true. I think in Rising strong. I said, what? I call it. Oh, gold, plating gold, plating grit, like they're just putting a gold plate on this idea that, you know, gritty failures. Okay, but there are very few companies that say, you know what this was and I've been in a few, so I have a lot of Hope but this was a failure. This is not working. What?
Key. Learnings, how do we embed what we've learned and how do we move forward? There are a handful of companies that do that. And I think with machine learning and AI, those will be the folks still standing in the next 10 years
and those leaders do need to demonstrate. This is now back to your practice or your insights. They do need to demonstrate and ways their own vulnerability, so that people can cycle. Oh, okay. So actually you're back, you're back in that. You're walking the walk talk, that talk that mistake. You make mistakes too. Oh, okay.
Okay. All right. So then that means so what you're really talking about is, mistakes are okay, but there's a certain type of mistake, right? So making a mistake and learning from the mistake that process is important. So Innovative mistakes are important, right? That the same mistakes or not. You can't cap making the same mistake. You don't know. You can't hang. You can't figure it out here. If you're going to keep making the same freaking mistake, either. You don't have the capacity or the willingness to look within to get the insight and both.
Those don't work, but here's the irony.
In companies where there is no vulnerability, where there is no ownership. That's where they keep making the same mistake, because no one's willing to dig in and talk about it. Shine, some light on it, pull it apart, and figure out what's going on. And so it's, you know, it's funny because I used to spend a lot of time, you know, coming off the research. I just came off of for deer to lead seven years studying kind of really top-performing leaders across every from athletes to
Fortune 10 CEOs, Civic leaders just across the board asking one question given the complexity that we're living in right now and what the future looks like. What's the one thing that you're going to be looking for in leaders? Like who's going to be still standing as a leader in the next five years? And it was the first time I've ever done research, where the answer saturated across every single participant. And without question, people didn't even hesitate. They just said, courage, we need braver leaders.
We need more courageous cultures.
And so we set about to figure out what is courage. What does it look like? And what are the skills and behaviors behind it? You know, not this Gauzy kind of aspirational be brave thing. But what is the real learning and what we found is that there are four skill sets, of Courage rumbling with vulnerability, living into your values, braiding trust and learning to rise. Getting learning how to get back up after failure. And I use this been so much time trying to convince.
As people that vulnerability is an essential part to courage until I was at Fort Bragg one day, and I was working with some special forces troops. And I asked this question, I said the definition of vulnerability is uncertainty risk and emotional exposure. That's what it means to be vulnerable. Can anyone here give me a single example, of Courage from your life or that you've witnessed in someone else? One example of Courage that did not require uncertainty risk and emotional exposure.
I'm
not a gymnast. Just not a chance with those one guy. Yeah. Until one guy stood up and said, ma'am three tours. There is no courage without vulnerability.
and so, it's like, and this whole skill set of rumbling with vulnerability and end up being half the book because
It's not about disclosure. It's not about oversharing. It's about not tapping out when things get hard and uncomfortable and
awkward. That is the razor's Edge for me. That's it. That that, that moment and I think when you just set it, I'm not. This is your life's work. I bet you could feel it. You know exactly what that much. Yeah. Okay. Me too. Right. And there's an animation that happens that for me is the razor's Edge. What are you going to do? Is the
Have to you know, the alpha of Alphas in the Performing and thinking world. What are you going to do on the razor's Edge? Because they've already organized their life to run to the razor's Edge. They fundamentally, there's no hacks. There's no seven steps. There's no secrets. There's no tips. There's that there's no tricks. They fundamentally organize their life to run to the razor's Edge because they know in those moments. That's where they reveal. The good stuff. Do. I have the capabilities and capacities to adjust the pivot to flex to bend to be?
Wrong to stay in it.
Right? And there's a phrase in that musicians use and dancers use that. I love, my wife is a dancer and like they, when you're, you're fitting in the music and so it fits and that to me is like what I think? So people talk about being present. Yes. Okay, but it's not like your mind is either in the past. The present that's for psychology today or some sort of, I don't want to knock on that. Yeah. It's like some sort of ribs digest version. Yeah, so it's like are you do you fit in?
The moment with the expansiveness of it and it's this mind-boggling, you know, Zen riddle to fit in the expansive moment, but that's what it's about. And so if there's a Razor's Edge to it and you can you can get cut by it, you can leave because you don't want to get cut or you can stay in and see if you can dance on the razor's Edge and that experience requires, incredible conviction, but it also requires a
decision.
It's really about choices in it.
Yeah. Yeah, you got to make the decision that this is how I'm going to but you can't make the decision. If you don't know that it's valuable because you know, when pain is bigger than purpose, we given to pain.
Our DNA is designed for it. And
so, yeah, I mean, yeah, you're fighting against history
there. Mmm-hmm. Yeah. So, how do you help? Okay. So let's, let's do a gender thing here. Is that and correct me if I'm wrong because maybe I'm working from an old framework, but we played in different sandboxes, you know, and even if we play in the same sandbox as I'm talking about, just men and women here boys and girls that we are treated differently in the same sandbox. And, you know, if you as a young child, we're going to
The toys and organize a game you were pushy if I was going to do it. I was a leader and so like we were we were rewarded different things. And so I didn't learn emotion as a child. I didn't understand it as a young adult and I've had to figure out as a man, how to feel deeply and it wasn't really until age 30 that it started to crack. Open just a little bit for me. And I'm this is the field I'm in and so I'm studying it. I'm feeling
it. I'm trying. I'm doing the internal work. You can't graduate my Ph.D program without doing a thing was 55 hours of internal or awesome. Yeah, and so like but so there's a disadvantage as what I'm saying, like a radical disadvantage and I'm not sure. I'm not sure that when you speak about courage and vulnerability, that men say, yeah, I'm going to be vulnerable now.
You know what, they usually say? Because I work with a lot of me. And I work with tons of men. They usually say, yes. Yes, but I can't do that. I, you know, why, because if you think about traditionally, think about the real shame plays and being vulnerable. And you think about very traditional masculine norms and feminine norms. And so. Masculine Norms are about emotional, stoicism, Primacy of work, emotional control.
So for men, you know, for masculine Norms, the big shame trigger is do not be perceived as weak. And so that whole thing of not being perceived as weak, really gets in the way of being vulnerable and for women because, you know, when I was trying to, you know, organized this am, you know, assign roles and do everything and I was called bossy or pushy or a note at all for women. Those Norms are the perfect, do it. All right, take care of everyone else but never show like you're exerting effort.
Hurt like always, just be perfect and easy. And so for us being vulnerable, is the shame trigger around that is I'm not perfect.
And so, you know, you know, so many women are like I can't be vulnerable because it shows imperfection men are like I can't be vulnerable because it shows weakness.
But everyone in their got, I mean, and and my books and I think even the Ted Talk has been translated to 40-something languages. This is the most universal across culture across country thing in our hearts. What we're what we know is I just want to be seen and loved and valued.
And unless on my true self, unless I am vulnerable which, you know, the easiest way to think about vulnerability is the willingness to show up and be seen when you can't control the outcome.
Which is every this is why it's so easy for athletics, really because to to move into expressing potential or the higher levels of performance, is that the outcome is never controlled. It is, always the byproduct of being in it. As long as you possibly can and even an Elite Sport. We see people check out as soon as the score of seems like it's too big, you know, the deficits do big, or they sometimes people do check out pregame when they know that they're going against an All-Pro and they defer, or
No or bow and as opposed to showing up and being in the mud and being in the thick of it, so like it still does happen. I'm not saying that they that group has it all figured out, but those that Excel and can play the long game. They have that ability to dance right on that Razor's Edge and vulnerability, you know, help me. If I'm off on this. It doesn't mean weakness. Vulnerability means the openness and willingness to stay in it longer than you did before, right?
Yeah.
Yeah, totally. It's awful. That it's one of the most I think dangerous myths in the world that vulnerability is weakness because there's just no evidence of that. You cannot you cannot get to courage without walking right through
vulnerability, but you will be hurt you. You will when you are a sure. Yeah. You and in love relationships, you'll be hurt and also performing context, you'll feel hurt, and so, okay. So let's let's thin slice it there in. Let's take it out of Performing worlds into you know,
Living rooms and or I don't know people are trying to I don't know like wherever vulnerability happens. In relationships early in relationships you have choices. Do I say it? Or do I did not say it and if you say it the true stuff that you don't really want to say that, you don't say very often. It's difficult to say it can come back around later. And so how do you help people become skilled at when, and how to be vulnerable? Because there is I think you coined the phrase, right? Radical vulnerability. And like,
Like that? Yes, not coin that phrase. Whoo. Yeah. Whoo. Yeah, who did that? Who
coined it out? I don't know. But I don't know that. I believe in it either. So, they look. So what I would say to people is
You share with people who've earned the right to hear your story, you share with people with whom you have a relationship that can bear the weight of the story. You don't use vulnerability and sharing as a litmus test to see how strong something is because that's that's dishonest in a big way. But you know, when we asked people to give us examples of vulnerability when I when I think I was writing daring greatly, you know, it's everything you're saying people said vulnerability, is the first date after my divorce.
It's trying to get pregnant after my second miscarriage. It's saying I love you first. It's sitting with my wife who has stage four breast cancer and talking about plans for my toddler.
It's not smiling. When I'm experiencing sadness or uncomfortable. Yeah, right.
Yeah. No, it's it is. I mean, and there's nothing braver than showing up like that. There's nothing braver.
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Three, literally to take ownership over your health and pick up the ultimate daily nutritional insurance. So with that, let's get right back into our conversation. Okay. Now you said you share vulnerability. You said people have to earn the right for it. What does at school? What does that mean?
Well, because people always ask me what comes first vulnerability or trust? I needed to have to trust somebody in order to be vulnerable with them, but I can't build trust with someone unless I'm somewhat vulnerable and
The best way to think about it is vulnerability and Trust are a slow stacking of we meet on myself. I may share a little bit. I see if we build trust around that. I mean, it's a slow stacking. I don't think vulnerability is hey nice to meet you. Here's the darkest thing that's ever happened to me and I'm going to see if you stick around after hearing that because a good boundary healthy person will be like hail know. I just met you. This felt really inappropriate. I'm out.
It's not we don't use vulnerability to test people.
Vulnerability is about showing up and being authentic, just being ourselves and we trust people with information that's important to us over time as we build trust. And so, I don't think you can uncouple trust and vulnerability. And I think they grow together and I think they can, they can also die together.
I mean, there's nothing there's nothing worse than sharing, something vulnerable with someone and then they have them use it against
you. What if there's like a family Dynamic and one party doesn't want to be vulnerable. And they've just basically have said it, I don't feel safe. I just don't feel safe too because of critique snide, remarks, you know, some sort of criticism. Like, I don't feel like I want to put myself in that situation. What?
What would you recommend in family Dynamics when so if you? Yeah, so if he were
saying that to me, if I said, I don't Michael I don't understand why you just don't open up about this more. I know what happened at your job or whatever was have been really hard. And you say I don't feel comfortable sharing it with you. I don't I don't trust you enough to share it with you or I don't and then I think I would come back and say
Our relationship is really important to me and I want to be a safe space for you to talk about these things with and I want to be able to talk about him with you. Can you tell me what Behavior specifically that I'm doing or how I'm showing up that I could work on because I'm willing to work on it and build that trust. If you're willing to work on it
with me.
They go and
and then I would wait to see what the behaviors are. And if you say, well, now it's that thing that you're doing, then I would say.
Then I would probably just say that makes me sad. And if there's something I can
do
to make you feel safer or build more trust and willing to do it, but it's hard being held responsible. When I don't understand what I could be doing differently. Hmm,
and then there's an accountability piece as well. Right? So, yeah, you started with accountability, like, okay, what am I doing? And if the person says I'm not doing that, that's not what I mean. Oh my gosh. That's what you think. I'm doing.
Then then it doesn't actually change it. So it feels like
now if you if there was a reverse and we were, you know, role playing this and you said, you asked me that question. I said, well, to be honest with you. You're really judgmental. When I share something hard, that maybe you would have handled a different way. I don't feel empathy. I feel judgment. And you're like, I don't judge you at all. And, you know, and I'm like, well, I really feel it. And then I would, if I were you. I would just say, tell me what you hear. Can you give me?
Example, not like prove it. But like me. Give you an example.
Yeah, so it's coming from a place. Yeah, it's coming from places like a, we're both. People want to do better. Yeah, cool. Yeah, awesome.
Awesome. And I think also, if I said this to you and I was trying my best and you're like, now, I'm just like, I trust you and I'd say,
I hear you. I get that's your choice.
But please make sure that you hear me when I say you're making that choice. I'm willing to show up and try new ways of being in this relationship with you because I care about you and it matters but I can't go on
nothing.
Yeah, good. Yeah, that's really cool because that happens. That's a big part of family Dynamics. I extended family for sure. We're sure. Yeah, that's brilliant. Okay. So let's put a pin in this for a minute and then go back. Like how did you what was early life like for you? What was it? Like growing up middle class lower lower economic status upper economic. Look, what was it? Like for you growing up?
Yeah, middle-class upbringing. I'm the oldest of four.
It's had a really kind of rough marriage when it was good. It was amazing. And when it was bad like Duck. So it could be pretty volatile. They both came from hard families, kind of working-class families, but really great people who just you know, we're doing the best they could with what they had the time they divorced. When I was 20, I learned a lot about I learned. I was I learned how to be a very hopeful person had learned a lot of agency. I believed I could probably do
Anything that you learned, we
were bigger.
Because, you know, my dad, you know, if we said I want a treehouse, it's not like they called The Treehouse construction company. They were like, you know, like what people in my neighborhood do I, where they get like a three-story carpeted, like a sea tree house. They were my dad was like, well, you better walk on over to Ace Hardware and see how much the lumber is and how much it's going to cost and talk to some people. And there's some Hammers, and the garage. And it was kind of like
there was a, it was very in a way very growth mindset for us like
you could see the
we were shown the relationship between effort and output.
So, and that's good. Anything on the downside, ours, you know, I was raised with a healthy dose of Shame. Like my parents, you shame as a parenting tool pretty commonly just like their parents did with them. So was
there like an ethnic or a religious connection to the shame or was that more systemic like family, you know, dysfunctional stuff.
I mean, fifth generation Texan german-american. Like, we don't get sick or not week. We push through. We suck it up Soldier on.
If your ankles broken, the best thing to do is walk it out. You know, like there was that there was that
thing. Yeah. What can I tell you? A funny story? Yeah, and so the Treehouse I don't think I've ever talked about this and so but you just bring something up is that at a young age? So I lived my family early days, lived in a farm and it was not a working farm, wasn't theirs. It wasn't like this luxurious thing, but it was like, we're out in the sticks in Virginia until like third, fourth grade. And so,
Yea though, it's the idea to build a treehouse. And this is how I, this is how I was raised. And so my dad and the neighbors, Dad, we found the tree and and they were kind of weird. I was young and I was trying to help Hammer this that know the hold the hammer really was more about like watching them. Yeah, the heavy Lumber but part of it, right? And so there's that industrial industrious way of making things happen with their with their hands. And so I got bored and the two dads were probably drinking some beers and having
Time and they were in, they were doing their thing and me and the other kids decided to have a little Vine fight. Now, who has Vine fights. I don't know, but we're ripping vines off of the tree and whipping each other with it. Now, the important part of that story is the vine that we chose was a poison ivy. So that's the fact that is how I grew up. Right? Is that? Yeah. We're going to work hard. We're going to build something. We're going to be creative and there was this a there was this Freedom like them.
Amazing. Freedom, like no one's watching and so I was watching, no one's watching. I've got stories for days about what it was like to be a little kid with no one watching. Got everything worked out and I learned risk-taking, you know, I really learned resiliency and that figure it out - that happens in consequential environments. And so, there is some sort of Big Time Value, but imagine a little grommet, a little kid coming home with like, whip marks and the next day to figure out it was
Is an IV and the two of us. Just there wasn't an ounce covered like a there wasn't a patch not covered by the oil. So that happened.
Yeah, you know what? I I grieve that for my kids because I was a free-range. I was a free-range, you're worried. I mean, I remember we had swim team practice like at 6:00 and 6:30 in the morning during the summer and my mom would put ink. What was it zinc oxide on my nose and she would give me a dollar and say be back by dinner and that's like that's like
1:00. That's like, I would leave on my like, banana seat bicycle for 13
hours in the sun. Yeah, so I said, that's my wife. That's that was my growing up. By the way. This is awful. I had a banana seat bike to know. Boys were not supposed to happening to see my expected and so, I was awesome. Oh, yeah, it was like talk about hillbilly. It was great. And so, yeah, but now my wife says, no, no things have changed and we live in a suburb city of Los Angeles and like, I don't know. Things have changed.
And and they have, you know, there's playdates and I don't know, it feels like it's a little bit more dangerous. I don't, I don't know.
We try to be, we try to be a little free range, like if we go to the lake or, you know, we let our kids try to do a little stuff. But yeah, I remember like my brother always coming home with poison ivy or coming home with chiggers or ticks or I mean like, oh my God. Yeah, we were country to don't worry.
Okay. All right. There you go. So, what was your I'm going back to, like, early days before high school. What was your bedroom like?
Before high
school. Yeah, because this is going to like give me a hint of early framework stuff.
I
don't know. It was I think I think it was a lot of plaid. I don't remember
neat. Organized, a mess artistic structured, straight lines, you
know, like where all of the above sometimes, neat, sometimes messy structured. I like to
organize. Hmm. Yeah. And then during high school that it changed much.
Yes. I had like, yeah, I think that chairs. I think there was maybe I can confirm nor deny that.
Probably pot hidden in it. Yeah, I had bright yellow walls and to can comforter.
So you, you took risks at a young age, your wrist
occur. I still am
still him. Okay, and then, that risk-taking is a character value for you for what reason?
I can't even it's like it's like asking a fish to describe water.
What happens in your life if you were, when you play it safe and
small? What's the point
survival?
No, I don't like I don't leave for the perfect Landings. I'll eat for the feeling in the air. Yeah, I've got a high tolerance for risk. Even with my work.
I don't feel, I can't feel in the music when I'm not.
Stretching a little
bit when you leap for the feeling in the air and you land and twist your knee and you can't get up and people are looking at you and not helping, right? So like that type of. Yep. Could you have a story that comes to mind with that like public professionally? I should say or any time in your life.
it's interesting because
I on the on the briefing sheet that I got for the podcast, it said, how do I Define Mastery? And so, I've been thinking about that for the last couple days and
I think it goes back to
I always feel like Mastery for me. I have Mastery in areas where I have the confidence to stay curious. Keep learning and keep jumping.
Like Mastery to me, has nothing to do with completion. It has nothing to do with control over our, you know, final accomplishment. Like I feel like I have Mastery in areas where I'm still willing to try something new to the point of feeling nauseous.
like,
So, to me.
Mastery. Just feels like the point of a lot of things that I do and
That me, you know, like, people looking and the hurt knee and not being able to stand up. Quite right, is just
I think part of Mastery for me. Like, I'm a pretty effective speaker and a lot of people say, like, you've got such Mastery over the speaking skill, but I still try things all the time, new things and sometimes they work and sometimes they don't, but
To me, curiosity and risk is the ultimate indication of
mastery.
I love it. Okay, right. We're right at the end of this conversation and I feel like I could do this for another 10 hours. But is there a, is there a word to cuts to the center of what you understand? Most?
Courage and is their word the cuts to the center of what you do the best?
Words.
That's cool. Let's you're the first person to say that and is there a word that cuts to the center of who you are? It would be that bold.
Grounded. Hmm.
Okay. So there's a there's a poem that's been guided that has guided me and I've got a handful of poems that I like to give to people man in. The arena, is one of them and then the invitation by Araya Mountain dreamer is another and it opens up with it. Doesn't interest me what you do for a living. I want to know what you ache for and if you dare to dream of meeting your hearts longing, so what is it that you ache for?
A world where people can understand and be in their pain rather than taking it out on other
people.
Second stanza. It doesn't interest me. How old you are. I want to know if you'll look. I'm sorry. I want to know if you will risk looking like a fool for love for your dream for the adventures of being alive and Brunei. You have capsulated that in a really cool way. So, yeah, so thank you for your time. Yeah, and thank you for your insights, and it's just been a joy to watch your work and have this conversation as well. So, thank you.
Thank you so much. Yeah, and where can we find you? Where can we follow
along? Brene? Brown.com. Is the best place. I'm also on Instagram and Linkedin and
Facebook best place to get your book.
Any of your local book, sellers.
Mmm-hmm. And so congratulations on your most recent book, you know, and obviously all the ones that came before. So yeah. Pleasure pleasure, pleasure. So I hope you have a great. Yeah, awesome. Okay. Take care. Thanks. Bye. Okay. Bye.
Okay, thank you so much for tuning in to another episode. Another conversation with finding Mastery. I love creating this podcast and having these conversations and sharing them with you. I really do care for our community as a quick reminder information in this podcast and from any material on the finding Mastery website and social channels is for information purposes. Only if you are looking for Meaningful support, which we all need, one of the best things that you can do.
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