Today, it's great to have tal ben-shahar on the podcast. Tall is a best-selling author and Leadership expert. He taught to of the largest classes in Harvard University's history. Today. He consults and lectures around the world to Executives in multinational corporations, The General.
Look and at-risk populations the topics. He lectures on include leadership, happiness, education Innovation, ethics self-esteem, resilience goal, setting and mindfulness. His books have been translated into more than 25 languages. Tall is the founder of Happiness. Studies Academy in online program, that provides the knowledge and the tools to generate happiness for individuals and school communities tall. So, so, glad we could finally arrange this chat.
Yeah, so good to be here. Scott.
You're a really interesting cat. You know that looking into your background and
everything. What is it might tell you to say
that? No, that's the opinion. I formulated based on my research of your entire life. And you know, I dug dug up some stuff tall. I dug up some stuff from your past. So this is interesting prior pursuing teaching and
Psychology, you were on the professional squash circuit. Until you experience the career-ending injury. Is
that right?
That is correct. You know Scott. I remember when I was 16, having the following thought.
And I thought to myself, what would I be doing when I can no longer play Squash. It was not one of the but these central element in my life. And I resolve them to become a squash coach. Once I had retired. Unfortunately, I did have when I was 21, almost 22. I did have a career-ending injury.
And that allowed me on that on a very different
path. Oh, yeah, but, or was it a very different path, you know, I read some of these really interesting books, like Michael Murphy, you know, the founder vessel and he's writing a book about golf. You know, how can we to transcend and experiences? You know, I'm wondering, you know, in your squash days. Did you experience inner happiness, you know, in the squash court, maybe it's not as disconnected as we think.
Yeah, no, you're right. And I often think about adding a few. Remember the book at all. I needed to learn all I needed to know. I learned in kindergarten. Well, I often think that all I needed to learn or know I learned on the squash court. So yeah, there are many parallels and even in there are not in direct links. So, even my my thinking about happiness today has a lot to do with myself.
I want to experience in that was actually generally not happy when I felt a sense of meaning and purpose, but I had a constant knot in my stomach and I felt stressed and and I thought that winning tournaments fulfilling, you know, reaching certain Milestones objectives would make me happy that I won a few tournaments and and I was happy but just for a
A short period of time. And it was the first time when I when I thought about it, I mean, the thought wasn't formulated. But, you know, I, I realized that happiness is about much more than just reaching Milestones attaining goals, and it was much more than about success.
Well, you know, you didn't go directly from squash player to Harvard. You also work to the shipping company. Is that right as well?
Yeah, there is grass. There was my first, my first job during college and after college, and the reason I got it was because the owner of the company was a squash player. And I think I mean I realized later on that you wanted to squash coach, you more than anything else, but, you know, God me to to, to do some fascinating work, going to stay in that and I stayed in ended up, staying that company.
For quite a few years and learning a lot. Because, you know, I spent a lot of time on ships and on Shipp, you know, you're sailing, the were cargo ships. So you're sailing with a group of 28 30 men from 10 countries.
It's a lot of minutes. My first thoughts
of countries.
It's a sort of a microcosm, and I learned so much about myself being on the on those ships, as well as about human nature and about different cultures. It was really a formative experience on so many things so many
levels. So how so how did you end up at Harvard, you know, teaching a course that and up and one, most popular courses at Harvard in Harvard's
history.
Yes, you know, I was I think like most personal stories, you know, there's an element of of desire and planning and then there is also an element of luck Fortune.
And you know, for me given that I wasn't happy. I decided to switch my major which was initially
computer science ever see or another
brand. And and then when I, when I went back as a graduate student, I then I had the real fortune of working with Professor, Philip Stone, who had started
Working with Marty Seligman in creating the new positive psychology. So in 1999, Philip Stone was one of the keynote speakers at the very first positive psychology Summit, and he took me along with him. So I attended that and it was love at first sight.
So there were, and then I was Professor Stones teaching assistant for six years was and more than that. He was my mentor. I was his Apprentice, for those six years. And when I graduated with my PhD, he was about to retire. And he asked me whether I wanted to take over its course. He had is he teaching positive psychology and
Yeah, and then I thought for about it was three or four milliseconds. I'm not sure. And I said yes.
And so, I took over his class and, and, and started to, and I'm still teaching his class following in his very big footsteps.
You teach it now with your happiness studies. I can't. Yes. Alright song. I'm
teaching it. That with the happiness Studies Academy over the years of the expanded Beyond positive psychology. And today, I integrate philosophy and economics and Neuroscience and literature, and film all into this field of happiness. Because, you know, so many people had so many wise things to say about the good life and not just positive psychologist.
Not just
psychologists. Yeah, I love that. You take a really broad perspective. Do you ever find that like your the philosophy contradicts the science and then you're like, what do I
do? So happy. Yes, actually often and and this is why I do love science. You know, I come from computer science background. My first first book that I read, you know, I'd rather than Cliff Notes. Don't tell my high school teacher was
You know, when I was 23 because I was always into the sciences and I'm still very much into the Sciences though. I think the sciences and the humanities can and should inform each other. So when philosophers disagree, you know, when that when there's a conflict between Aristotle and Confucius to Giants, you know, it says science can be the can be the Arbiter.
Yeah, yeah, it's interesting science being the are besides being the referee. That's kind of a funny thought. I don't know why it's funny, but is. Yes, so this time period, you know, what, an amazing time that was for you at Harvard and I just want to like zoom in on that time, you know, put the field, the whole field of positive psychology was just emerging there, wasn't that much science yet on the size of hamsters at dinners work, you know? Life's at, I'm trying to think like 1999. Like, what was that? What was there in?
Psychological literature, you know, you had to kind of be a MacGyver. A bit of you know, I'm saying like there wasn't you know and bringing together all these different perspectives into a coherent whole that inspired, you know, these kids I still talk to they're adults now, but there were those that were in your class, you know, and like uniformly they're all like it changed my life. So you did something that right there,
you know, so few things first of all, not.
I'm a big believer in Carl Rogers has claimed that what is most personal is most General. So when I put together that class, I asked myself, what would I have wanted to learn when I was a student, you know, sitting in there and in there. See because I struggled through through college and I knew when I was older that certain things would have helped me. So I integrated them into the class. So that's the first thing.
Now, the second thing you know, yeah, we are talking about your 1999 early, early 2000s, positive psychology is a new and emerging field. And at the same time. It's an old. In fact, ancient field because Aristotle talked about the good life and had so much to say about it. And then fast forward to the 20th century. You may have heard of a psychologist by the name of Abraham as
whoa.
Yes. I think my audience has heard that name, bad nauseam, all this podcast.
In fact, the textbook that I used for my know. I
tore the psychology of being was it 30 seconds. I told you being all my gosh
because you know, man, I mean, you know Maslow wrote a chapter called towards a positive psychology. So here
A lot to set, a still does have a lot to say about it. And, in fact, you know, I thought about it recently. I think that there is an advantage in being at the, the onset, or the beginning of a field, when there, isn't that much content because it is
exciting.
It forces one to be creative and it forces one to be eclectic.
And there is a lot of value in eclecticism. There's a lot of value in in in the need to look outside your field and you know, if if your field has too many good answers, then there is no incentive to to venture out. And I think venturing out is is so important for. And again, whether you're in a new field or an old field venturing up is so important because
When you become creative Innovative, it's just easier to do when you have no choice.
I think that's a really, really good point. Well, there was all sorts of interesting things there, you know, people who ended up becoming Big Shots. There are three. I want to just mention three, three people. Also. First of all, is it true? Adam Grant was one of your all-time favorite students at Harvard, the organizational psychologist. Give a the author give-and-take and lots of other bestsellers. Yeah. What was he like, as an undergraduate? I give us some gossip.
Hey, yeah, he was Adam Grand.
Wow. Yeah, many, many, many atoms.
Yeah, he helped me a lot. I must say taught me a lot.
That is so cool. When.
Yeah. Yeah, so, you know, I am so, you know, he was my student and Leah
Pipes Colm. It does. It's like a little. So it crumbles, your ta one of your Tas, right? And now she is as she was that
Actually my spirit, my advisee and later, became my
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For our listeners, Alia Chrome is a professor now out at Stanford University. Doing really awesome work on Placebo, placebo effect in mindset and how mindset can affect our stress and the nature sees that she's a superstar now. And then now also that you had Shawn achor was a TA of yours as well is yeah.
Yes indeed. So, Sean was the head teaching fellow who masterfully manage the class. He also taught
Already been an extraordinary teacher and and I must say it was so, you know, it's a bit of the history of the class of the first year. I had just a handful of students, you know, eight to be precise.
You only had eight students here for soon. Yes,
but I'm actually not telling you the whole truth here, because to dropped out, so that leaves us with
six, I bet they're regretting it. Now. I bet those two are regretting it
now.
It really hurt me then, you know to lose. What is it? 25% of the class in one Fell Swoop, there wasn't easy, but you know, what doesn't kill. You
makes you stronger and it did and it did yeah, you're living proof of that.
And the following year. It was the class grew. And I had, you know, a couple of hundred and then the third year, much more than that. And and and and
It was like running a mini organization and you know with 20 teaching assistants and and parents so many students and I have you know, the I couldn't have died obviously without without Sean without Jeff proteins and in so many other teachers who are teaching positive psychology today.
And you know, we're still in touch and it was a
wonderful for your hands and your life. I'm sure you feel very nostalgic when you think about that time period of your life. Well, I was wondering how you know, I've made this should have been my first question. But how do you define happiness? Things are really important
question.
Yeah, it is an important question and not an easy one because there are so many definitions of happiness. And in fact, many people just say well happiness is like Beauty, you know, it when you see it or you know it when you experience, it's
a cop-out answer
but I do think it is important to define happiness. So I will not come out of that one because when we understand what it is,
And we're more likely to, to find it, you know to reminds me. Sorry. I'm not copping out. I'm just deviating how I do. Yeah,
we've talked before about this. You you have a definition. Yeah, but yeah
the Alice in Wonderland, you know, so when Alice meets that Cheshire cats, one of my favorite parts, and she said she says to the Cheshire Cat, which way should I go? And he says, well that
Depends where you want to get to. And she says, well, you know, it doesn't matter where I get to and then you said, well, it doesn't matter which way you go. So if we, you know, if we want to get you happiness, we need to to Define it so that we know where we're going. So I see happiness as comprising, five elements. They, they are the Spire elements. This is the acronym. The first elements of element of happiness is spiritual well-being.
Spiritual well-being is about having a sense of meaning and purpose. It's about being present, being mindful in the Here and Now physical well-being. The second element of a Spire is about nutrition. It's about exercise. It's about rest, sleep recovery. It's about touch. And then there is intellectual well-being, intellectual well-being is about curiosity. And, you know, this is one of my favorite all-time studies.
Curious people actually live longer all other things being
equal. Oh, yeah, Todd sessions work. A little bit shows that right now is
work Carmela's work. And you know, I find that fascinating because you know, they say curiosity killed the cat but it actually helps humans live longer which
is not supposed examples. Yeah. That like the the animal studies don't generalize to the human studies, you know, because with cats. Yeah, it's no
good. Danny do in rats. That was so
That's true. That's true. We should see hold out. But yeah, you could definitely see, you know, cats, you know, need to curb their curiosity a bit. I can see dogs as well. So
silent don't read my book because it's dangerous for them actually,
but if they could read it all that would be dangerous.
That's correct. The Cheshire and then you have under intellectual well-being. You also have deep learning, which is also
So, an important part of of intellectual well-being. And then you have relational well-being, the are of speyer relations of. The number of relationships, are the number one, predictor of happiness, and its relationship with others, as well as relationship with oneself. And finally, it's emotional well-being. How do you deal with painful emotions? How do you cultivate pleasurable? Emotions? So it's spiritual well-being, physical intellectual, relational. And
Emotional. These are the five elements of happiness that make whole person well-being, or in a word
hole because I love that. I really love that phrase. Don't you have like a whole being Institute or something?
So I was one of the cofounders of the whole being stood and now most of my work is being done, is the happiness Studies Academy focuses on whole being in the
spine about that.
Yeah, I just associate that phrase holding, I think, oh, told likes that free. I love that phrase because I've, I'm love that phrase for a while when I saw you use it. That's great. So you just think about like deep learning but where I couldn't wear. Do you swat that into the spot? Where's the D? I'm confused about that one. Yeah,
no. Deep learning is under
Intel. Oh, I see. Okay. Yeah, that makes sense. That makes sense.
Okay, and then and since you brought that up, let me just say
Things about that because you know, when you say to people, o emotions pleasurable, emotions are important for happiness, you know, no-brainer, when you say a sense of meaning and purpose is important for happiness. Yeah, of course, or physical exercise, but people ask me how he's deep learning connected to to happiness. While it's connected in a very deep way, going back to Aristotle who might consider the, the the father of the of Happiness studies, you know, he talks about human beings being rational animals and
And how contemplation is to in his mind the most important pillar to happiness? But what is it about deep learning? You know, the first course that I took at Harvard wasn't actually, in computer science, nor was it in Psychology? The first course I took, as an undergrad was in Speed reading.
This was during freshman week, and it was, it was a very important course because, you know, we were required to read hundreds of pages a week at times. So, speed reading important skill. And, however, looking back, I think an even more important, of course, to teach to mandate on college campuses is slow reading.
So learning to to look at, you know, one paragraph a short text read it and reread it and delve deeply into its its meaning its wonders. Why first of all? Because we potentially derive a great deal of Joy. When we when we deeply engage with texts, or with nature, or with the work of art, second. It also benefits other areas in our lives, for example,
Relationships, you know, one of the reasons why we see so much relationship popping in today's world. Why we see the dissolution of so many relationships is because people no longer exercise, the Deep learning muscles. And, you know, the average amount of time that people spend on a webpage is seven seconds. So, you know, seven seconds in new stimulation.
And now we need new stimulation, new stimulation and these muscles are exercised and then we need new stimulation in life and we get bored very quickly instead. If we learn to delve deeper into a work of art or a text. If we really get to know a text deeply, well, then we can use these very same muscles or they will be implemented automatically. Also when we engage and interact with
Person. So, you know, the new the right neural Pathways for deep relationships are cultivated. We develop them. When we engage deeply with the text or or anything else for that matter and relationships is just one example, you know, would apply to, you know, the world of business as well. It can help us better know a person at ascertain whether a deal is a good deal or not. So the Deep learning muscles are very important muscles which
Which in today's world, most people do not use sufficiently.
I love that. You include that in your model. Hi, everyone. We recently started hosting the psychology podcast on anchor and it's been such a delightful experience for us. If you haven't heard about enter, it's the easiest way to make a podcast beside it being completely free, anchor will distribute your podcast for you. So it can be heard on Spotify Apple podcast and many more platforms.
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Where does creativity fit into your model?
So, you know, when it comes to creativity and again, who am I to talk to you about creativity, but when it comes to creativity, you know, we need to create the right conditions for the right conditions in place. So, you know, the work of Alice Isen and Barbara Fredrickson know they point to to the fact that when we increase or improve our mood when we
Experience more, positive pleasurable, emotions. We are more likely to think outside the box. So that so that's one element. You know, that? That would go under emotional well-being, increasing emotional well-being, that will help us become more creative, but not only that, you know, intellectual well-being as well. You know, when we, when we learn about different topics we become
Creative, you know, I my personal favorite example, so, you know, so I love music and specifically classical music and specifically the classical in the Romantic Period. So I listen to a lot of Mozart and Beethoven if you listen to Beethoven's First two Symphonies, they sound like Mozart.
You listen to his third Symphony. That's Beethoven. That's the Romantic Beethoven. Now. Beethoven would not have become Beethoven without studying Gregorian chants, and ba and, and, and Mozart. So he deeply studied these, you know, so the the illusion that, you know, the great creative genius, you know, brings creativity out of nowhere. It's an illusion. So so deep learning
Contributes a great deal to to creativity. And let me give another example from spiritual well-being. Support of spiritual well-being is being present being in the Here and Now Flo me her cheeks and me highs the concept of being the hearing out that contributes a great deal to to creativity. So, if you look at similarly, by the way, there's also research that, you know, having a good night sleep that
It's too crazy. But he's so every one of the Spire elements including, by the way, relational well-being, which is the only one that I didn't mention. I mean, creativity often comes in conversation. And I remember, you know, you you and I met for, for lunch in New York City, and I don't know about you but my creative juices were flowing and
very fond memories of
that. And you can send that was as a result of bouncing ideas, you know, we talked about Maslow and we talked about, you know, our respective histories and
Then in our, you know, desired future and in these encounters lead to creativity. So every one of the Spiral elements is is part of a sort of the M, the foundation, or the the ground, the fertile ground from which creativity grows.
Well, yeah, I absolutely love that. And my next question is more of a philosophical question, because I'm really genuinely curious to know your thoughts.
On this, what's the benefit of putting all those things? Under the umbrella of Happiness versus is you slipped into the term well-being while you're discussing this. So do you equate happiness with well-being and then what do you equate? Like some positive psychologist, equate happiness with life satisfaction positive affect. And so that what do you equate with that? Like, what do you call that? What they're calling happiness when you post
that is why it's so important to to Define our terms.
And in that respect, it's, I don't know if it's arbitrary the way we Define our terms because, you know, there is Rhyme or Reason at least to us. But at the same time, there isn't a right definition. Now, that doesn't mean there are no right or wrong in anything goes, you know, we know that doing certain things will have a positive impact and doing other things who have negative impact, but at the same time, whether you define happiness
This as comprising, comprising the five spiral elements or happiness being about adding the each moment moment by moment experience. And you know, the aggregate of these moments is happiness or whether you equated with the with well-being or with life satisfaction, you know, that's a matter of choice. The reason why I chose to to, to draw on the Spire elements is because I think that is an inclusive and
Definition that brings together a lot of the words, you know, so Freud's work on the Pleasure Principle Victor Frankel's work on meaning Robert nozick or Daniel kahneman's work on aggregating, our experience self, you know at dinners and Daniel kahneman's work on, you know, looking back and reflecting on their own are Lawns. I'm including all those in
In in my model. And yet, you know, there are people who say, well, you should add different things, you know, recently a few people actually said to me, you should include Financial well-being, under under happiest because that's important too. And and my response is that if it's important for you included, you know, as much as I emphasized research, I emphasize me search even more.
And, and and, and, and that is what massless emphasized a lot. So, when he talked about doing a research in Psychology, talked about a great deal about, you know, big digging deep looking into our best experiences and learning from those not just about looking at research that Aggregates other people's experiences.
Cool, and it seems like you're really focusing on kind of the is this fair to say, happiness is kind of the emergence of though all operating on all cylinders and all those things? Because you can you just pluck one of those things out of the context of the others, you get like, you know, you can get like a William James who was intellectual up the kazoo, but wanted to kill suit, kill himself, you know, through most of his life. Would you? I wouldn't describe moves a happy person, you know, so it just seems like one of those plucked out of their context.
There's is not necessarily happiness in itself, but it seems like you're using, is it fair to say, that's more of an emergence of, you know, yelling all those boxes. That's all that.
Because, you know, every one of those matter or, you know, even, you know, you look at Viktor Frankl as a person who searched for and found meaning in his life, but to say that Viktor Frankl was happy when he was at Auschwitz, for example, you know, that would be ludicrous. So, you know, meaning is not happiness at the same time a person without
A out a sense of meaning in life would be, you know, really scratched or probably impossible to find happiness. So meaning is is a necessary but not sufficient condition for happiness. And you can say that about each one of the Spire elements. Having said that and this is this is often a misunderstanding that above the model. You don't need to have them all to the nth degree.
You don't need to 10 on on each one of those elements. And in fact, you can't have a 10 and what you need is to ask yourself. So which are the ones that are more important for me and let me go, you know, full steam ahead on those and at the same time, manage the other so that they don't detract from from, from from happiness. You know, it has I'll draw a parallel here.
To to something that Peter Drucker. The, the considered the the man who invented management or at least modern management studies, you know, he said about strength. He said, we need to focus on our strengths and manage our weaknesses. You didn't say, focus on our strengths and ignore our weaknesses. In the same way he to manage all five elements of the spire and then primarily Focus.
On those that are most near and dear to us, you know, if I think about it, you know, personally intellectual well-being is extremely important to me and and therefore, I spent a lot of time Reading Writing and learning at the same time. No critical well-being. Of course is it is important to me. But, you know, I no longer play professional squash. So I exercise and I do what I think is good enough in that.
At in that area, you know, I'm not, I'm not training for the Ironman. You know, I don't work out, you know, three hours a day, but I do what I know works for me, which is enough. So and and we need to balance all these things because, you know, they're only, you know, 24 hours a day, you know, 25 will going back from changing the clocks. And, and we need to
To do the best that we can in the limited time that we have and we cannot experience a 10. Each one of the Spire elements just unrealistic.
I love that. I love that you mentioned, you know, you're hinting at the fact, their individual differences in desire to fulfill each. One of those are there also cultural differences in how people and cultures define happiness differently,
right? Yes. So, you know, when we look at and happiness, we need to look at it at three levels. The three levels are the universal, the cultural, and the personal. So the universal level.
Art certain Universal, you know, whether you're in, you know, in Nairobi or or Sacramento, or or Shanghai to be happy, you want a sense of meaning and purpose in life. You need to be physically active. You need to, to learn relationships, are Keen all these called in every culture in the world. As, you know, it.
Is gratitude and dealing with painful emotions? So these there are certain universals at the same time. There are also cultural differences, you know, when it comes to to, to relationships again in the in the u.s. Much more individualistic in Africa. The idea of Ubuntu I am because you are is a central concept and in China much more collectivistic. So there are
Difference is that we need to take into consideration and certain things that will make a European or North American economic generalizing here. Broad brush strokes, but would make them happy would not necessarily work or not working the same way.
In in Africa or Asia. And again, very broad, brush Strokes here. So, there are cultural issues that we need to take into consideration. And finally, we need to take individual issues into consideration in. This is where me search because not all Americans or not. All Canyons, not all Chinese are alike. They're very different. And this is where we need to look inside and ask, for example, which one of the Spiral
Is most important for me. And what can I do in my life to to, to increase my the quality of within that Spa Ramen? Because for me, it could it studying philosophy and psychology for apps with someone else. It's studying languages for someone else. It's art. So there are individual differences as well. And we need to look at those three levels again, the universal, the cultural the individual
here here, here here. Thanks. Thanks for that. Making this.
Distinctions.
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Nancy ger on Apple podcasts, Spotify or whatever you listen to podcasts.
Hey everyone doing this podcast for y'all is one of my greatest privileges for the cost of maintaining a professional production. Like this one really adds up. I'm grateful to today's sponsors who helped fund the show, but if you prefer completely ad-free experience, you can join us at patreon.com slash like podcast. You'll get completely ad-free episodes all while directly supporting the show for, as little as $5 a month. That's patreon.com. Like podcast. What would you say to someone? Let's say a student came up to use like,
Besser ben-shahar. I really want to achieve happiness. What can I do to achieve happiness? You know, what would you say to that
student?
I'd say to
I want to I want to high performance on happiness.
Say to them Houston. We have a problem and remember to reasoning, the reasons, my
Scooby-Doo. That was my Scooby-Doo.
Ruh-roh. The reason is because of research that was conducted by Iris moss. And would she and others show.
Was that people who start out by saying your happiness, is very important for me or, you know, I don't pursue happiness, and I'm going to be happier. They actually end up less happy.
So the reason why we have a problem is because on the one hand were told this, but on the other hand, we also know that happiness is a good thing, you know, first of all, it feels good to feel good. Second, you know, people are happier as we talked about are more creative. They they enjoy better relationships. They're physically healthier. They they're nice or can't, you know, we all want happiness. It's a good thing. And yet on the other hand, we know.
Iris Moss research that waking up in the morning and saying that or going to our professor and saying I want to be happier and you know, what can I do to become happier that actually detract thanks away from our happiness. So how do we reconcile this contradiction or Paradox, or Challenge? And the way we do it is by pursuing happiness indirectly.
So let me use an analogy before I give a concrete example. So the the analogy is sunlight, you know, if the sun is shining and I'm looking up directly at the Sun that will hurt my eyes. That will actually cause me pain.
So what can I do? I can break the the sun rays, the sunlight, using a prison, for example, and then in directly look at the Sun and then, I can really enjoy the colors of the rainbow in the same way, when happiness, rather than pursuing it directly. I can indirectly pursue it.
And what are the metaphorical colors of the rainbow? They are the Spire elements.
So if I wake up in the morning and say, you know, I want to do work that's meaningful to me, or I want to be more present and meditate that will contribute in directly to my happiness or if I start exercising regularly, physical well-being that's indirectly pursuing happiness, or if I engage in deep learning, if I ask questions curiosity, that's indirectly leading to happiness. Same for cultivating relationships.
Investing in my relationships, making them a priority or or expressing gratitude, emotional well-being. These are all ways of indirectly pursuing happiness. So enjoying sunlight without being
hurt that, you know, a lot of what we talked about and even type of now, you know, it might be, might be more of a privilege for some people over others, you know, and and I'm wondering
You know, how can this positive psychology approach that you're putting forward? Try to lift up individuals who are most at risk
populations.
yeah, so few things know the first thing is
The foundation of happiness is, first allowing in unhappiness.
In other words, you know, happiness is not about being happy all the time or a happy life is not about experiencing a constant high, all the time in college. In fact, it's about embracing painful emotions accepting the fact that their part and parcel of every life difficulties our chips and paradoxically when we accept and embrace painful emotions. That's when we open ourselves up to
Two more happiness, so, you know saying that or or promising that the, if you truly understand happiness and do all the right things, so to speak, you'll you experience a constant High, you know, that that's a detached unrealistic notion second connected to this is not an all-or-nothing proposition, you know, people ask me today who know that? I
I got into the field of the happiness, studies or positive psychology because I was unhappy, they say, okay, so so 30 years, hence. Are you finally happy?
And and and my answer to that is I don't know. I don't even know how to answer this question. Why? Because I don't think there is a point before which one is unhappy after, which one is Happy Ron. I don't think happiness is not a binary 0 1, rather it exists on a Continuum. And in other words. I'm happier today than I was 30 years ago certainly, but I hope.
Ten years from now, to be happier than I am today. You know. It's a lifelong journey, a journey that ends when life ends. Now the point, therefore is wherever I am on that. Continuum, the question is, how can I become a little bit happier? What can I do to increase my levels of well-being? And I can do that, whether I'm in the on the depressed side, make, perhaps the very depressed side on the Continuum. Or if I'm doing
Okay, or if I'm doing great and want to be even happier than that, in other words, the field is relevant for for all of us and the tools can be implemented for anyone anywhere. Anytime the same time, the field, whether a positive psychology, or the science of happiness is not a Panacea and it's it doesn't solve everything. And if a person is experiencing
Depression. Then I recommend going to a conventional therapist or if necessary a psychiatrist. And if you know, if we experienced a serious poverty, in certain areas, we need to alleviate the poverty and deal with the poverty, you know, going to there are certain Basics basic needs that.
That are more important to to deal with than happiness. Now, if you can deal with them concurrently together, then than great. It's the best of both worlds. But if you had to choose do I lie V8, you know, severe poverty or do I teach them the science of Happiness? That's a no-brainer, you know, poverty. First, of course,
why do you think depression levels are sky rocketing? Do you think there's a relationship between
In technology and cell phone, use, and
depression. And unfortunately, they're there is, this is based on a lot of research that out there whether it's Eric kleinberg was a sociologist at NYU, who has shown that the more time we spend on social media, the lonelier we are and and and then there is work by Jean twinge.
For a man, San Diego who shows that the reason why levels of depression are so high among the among teenagers is because they're spending more and more time on the smartphone, technology. You know, the number one addiction today, not alcohol, no drugs, not gambling. It's technology. And we're paying a high price for it. Now in moderation, technology is great. But we've gone Way Way Beyond
moderation.
Oh, yeah, I have this other screen up of my Twitter that I've just been on the whole time and keep paying attention. No, you said something now, joking. I didn't do that. Okay, but, you know, here's the thing, you know, compassion is, is just over and over again in the literature really important, tenets of happiness. It just seems like social media, just my perception, social media is, causing us to be even more polarized and not talk to each other. In a, those who disagree with it's not
We don't talk to them and it's such a compassion away when we're performing, you know, trying to get likes, you know, and what's how do we get out of this rut and and return to relationships and compat positive relationship and coming.
That's that's the question and you know, the most troubling study that I came across make maybe my entire career is by Sarah Conrad and and what she found was that levels of empathy among.
90 year olds today is according to her measurement, 40 percent lower than empathy levels of 20 year olds from 20 years ago. In other words, over a period of 20 years, empathy levels went down by 40% according to the soldier. Now, doesn't matter how you measure. You know, that they did something similar in the UK, in the found, that that teenagers and young adults.
Displayed less empathy less care, less compassion towards other people. Now. Why do we see that? And the answer is, unfortunately in technology because how do you develop empathy, you know, empathy is, as I see, it is the moral language and the language of morality and how do you develop a language? Well, you know, take Vietnamese. Let's say, you know, Scott you decide to study Vietnamese.
Thing you can do is take classes in Vietnamese. And you know, you know three times a week go to class and you'll learn and you'll memorize the vocabulary and you know, you're Vietnamese will certainly improve. However, that's no match for going to Vietnam and immersing yourself in the language. That's when you really pick up the language. That's when you'll get to a much higher level than taking classes.
In Vietnamese, in other words, immersion. That's the key. Now. Let's go to the language of morality, which is empathy. What does it mean to immerse ourselves in that language? It means to be together in person with other people to play in the same sandbox to be around the same desk to, to, to hurt someone and then see the reaction to, you know, be hurt by someone to cry and then to, to reconcile, you know, that's how empathy
Is cultivated, it's not cultivated when you are on on social media.
Even worse things happen because you know because you don't see the other person you see that you get away with with horrible things and and the natural and it is natural. The natural sentiment of empathy is not cultivated doesn't grow. Doesn't develop
And yes, we can have more and more classes on, you know, value clarification and empathy and talk about the Golden Rule. And that's important. I'm not belittling their, their, their value. However, that's no substitute for immersion in the language of empathy. And today kids, as well as adults, interact, far less face-to-face or in person.
That's a real shame, and it's covered in help.
I did
it. It didn't end and it's not and hopefully it is temporary and will go back way back to appreciating in-person interactions at the same time. Not All Is Lost on when we are forced to interact online because you know, while perhaps
We need to have more virtual relationships today by virtue of the situation. There is an important distinction that we need to make and that is between superficial and deep relationships. You know, if I spend an hour with the friend through Skype through through Zoom, we can have a very deep conversation and that deep conversation does contribute to developing empathy. Not the same as being
In the same, you know, same room around the same table. However, it's a lot better than just interacting through Emoji. Zor-el. Al's or other short to emotions. There are no shortcuts to cultivating empathy.
Do you make a distinction between compassion and empathy?
Yeah, I think about of it is is a matter of definition. I think there are intimately connected. So a person who cultivates empathy, the ability to identify other people's feeling in them to identify with their feelings. And then that person will be more compassionate, will be more caring. Yeah.
And your seems like cares kind of the underlying thread, you know, across all that you made in.
The point about more face-to-face interaction. I find that, you know, if there are people that are kind of, I find them to be kind of jerks on Twitter. If I DM them, you know, direct message them privately and talk to them. They tend to be quite cordial with me. And so, it makes you think that, gosh, maybe we should all be having more one-on-one interactions with each other than these performative, sort. Self-esteem attempts at self-esteem, boost,
you know, but, you know, if on Twitter or the the top backs new
Knew how much they were approaching the person that they were messaging. They would not do it. And not only did they not do it. It would go a long way into strengthening, you know, the the empathic the compassionate Connections in their brains, but when he just goes out there, you know, Into The Ether, it hurts without them learning or even knowing just how much it hurts.
I love that. Well, so tell me about some
You will land here with, you know, tell me about your latest Endeavors such as the happiness dies Academy. And then you have a certificate in happiness, studies. See IHS. Tell our listeners about that because they might be super interesting that all
that. Yes. It is. The certificate in happiness, studies is a year-long journey, which is actually a life long journey, but, you know, long journey is where participants get a lot of
or over 40 lectures and, you know, 50 webinars and a lot of reading and exercises and the purpose of this certificate in happiness, studies is, to help participants become happier and help them help others become happier. And we have a students from over 60 countries, who are therapists and coaches, and consultants, and managers and teachers, and
Terrence and, you know, the in doctors, you know, the whole gamut people who are introducing the sons of Happiness, to their professional life, as well as to their personal life helping themselves and others become happier. What sounds great. It
sounds really great. Well, I wish you all the great success with it. And yeah, thanks so much for chatting with me today. You're a legend in the field. So it was a true honor for me, you know, so thank you for the chat today.
Thank you for that scarf. And I can't wait to meet in person again real soon.
I can't wait all the best to you. Thanks for listening to this episode of the psychology podcast. If you'd like to react in some way to something, you heard I encourage you to join in the discussion at the psychology. Podcast.com. That's the psychology podcast.com. Also. If you'd prefer a completely ad, free experience, you can join us at patreon.com slash like pie.
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