This is
V. We're live. All right, awesome. So we're officially life. Thank you for that. David. Thank you. Jordan Peterson for coming back for this. I think this is fourth or fifth, Thomas of us, have a new on, how are things
strange strange? But good. Yeah, so I started my tour about 10 days ago. I saw Joe Rogan first and that was really good and seemed to provoke a lot of outrage in the predictable place.
And we need more of that though. We need me.
Yeah, well, we're going to get rich. We're going to get more so so I don't think we're going to have to wish for that. That's just going to happen. And then I've done 72 or lectures so far and with an average audience size of about 2,500 and they're going great. They're unbelievably positive, everybody almost everybody dresses up, which I think is really cool. Really. Yeah. Well, when I went on to her in 2018,
Before I went out, I thought I wanted to do this like 100% right or at least as close to that as I can manage. So I went out and bought some expensive suits and I spent way more money on this is one of them. Actually, you look great. By the way. Thank you. Thank you way more money than I ever thought. I'd spend on clothes and I really felt quite bad about it. You know, I thought maybe it was an extravagance, but I thought no way man. I'm going to see if I can nail this dead-on and I'm going to be speaking to, you know, 100,000 people. I'm going to look as sharp as I possibly can.
And one of the consequences of that has been that young man in particular, come to the lecture tour, dressed up in suits three-piece suits. They're going to couples come and they're dressed up, like they're coming to a wedding or so, that's really something.
And why do you think that is? What is it? Because you set
the standard acting like kids. Okay, you know, our whole culture pushes the idea that Teenage life or even childhood for that matter, but Teenage life is some sort of Pinnacle and then everybody
addresses down. So they look, especially man. They look like overgrown, 10 year olds, and there's something extremely demeaning about that. And so to provide people with the opportunity to
Dress up in a classic Manner and to look like adults to present themselves in that manner. There's something very attractive about that because we haven't done that in our culture. That's been I would say downplayed and importance or, or force. It certainly since the
1960s who's to blame for that because you recall any time you would fly in an airplane. If you see old-school pictures, the people are dressing three-piece suits to go on an airplane. This is in the 60s. I assume and then
You see a someone like Mark Zuckerberg wear t-shirt to give a speech in front of a TED talk or something like that. Most of the time for this, some of its just
fashion, you know, I mean fashion moves around and then and it's usually drifts from the top down and so when formality becomes the norm at but that drifts down to say to the working class, then the upper class thinks. Well, we can't do that because that would you know associate us with the unfashionable people and then they dress down and so then that drifts down the hierarchy and so there's some of the
Some of its just fashion, but a lot of it too. Is this idea that this sort of reflexive rebellious attitude, that anything that violates traditional Norms or even anything that's associated with patriarchal, oppression, and adulthood is to be eliminated in favor of what's hypothetically more free individuality, but it's not because everybody looks the same. I was in Washington 45 years ago, maybe longer than that. He's probably longer than that. When I first went in the
And one of the things that really struck me, all these people wandering around these great monuments is all the men looked like, overgrown, ten-year-olds. They looked exactly like their kids except they were bigger. They look like, they mean inflated with a bicycle pump and I thought this is weird that that adults are dressing like children and not good and so some of its fashion but some of its also, that is it exclusive in America. How about in
Canada? What have you seen all over the world with
this? No, I don't think it's exclusive to America. I think it was more noticeable to me.
In Washington, and I think that's when it really hit me because Washington has in some sense, a place of pilgrimage and people from every class go there. And that's that's a good thing and and they should from every economic class. And so it was like a cross. It was a real cross-section of the total population. And that was one of the things that struck me quite quite bluntly. And so, anyways, it's very nice to see all these people. We need to stop and when you
hear the argument being made, as the following argument, the argument is
Look, you you only have so much energy to make so many decisions throughout your day. Do you want to be in front of closet in the morning picking and choosing what suit? I'm gonna wear to tie with what shirt and what tie you know, what I'd much rather not consumed. My energy thinking about what outfit to put together. It's a lot easier to just have a white shirt. Jeans regular tennis shoes and go to work and let me make the bigger decisions. While I'm running a company. I've never felt bad not worn a suit. Every time I've had a suit on. I felt better than just walking over to t-shirt on.
Even though the t-shirt is a lot easier to do, you know your it's a lot easier even when you were in the military. It felt good. Having your Greens on, you know, having your Beady you on, there was something very attractive about having a suit on not, not for the audience. Just even for yourself. You felt good. Having a uniform on, I don't know
where Walmart, I talked to my father about this years ago, because he always wore a suit. When he was a teacher. He's still alive. He's a teacher and he always wore a suit. And I asked him why one day and
Said because it was his way of showing respect for the students. And I mean, I'm not saying that everyone who doesn't dress in the suit is being disrespectful, but there's something about outfitting yourself for the task at hand. And there's also something about attempting to put some effort into presenting. You're putting your best foot forward and I don't really buy that it takes more time. In the morning argument. It takes a bit more time. But once you like before I went on this tour, I went through all my clothing.
And I tossed out everything that didn't fit and which included a number of suits that were old and I had to organize them and that took about a day to get my closet in order and but then it from then on it, only is actually a pleasure in some sense. But you do it yourself. Do I do meaning like you
go through your closet, your do-it-yourself Like Pat has a very unique way of like you don't pack anymore. Pat. Do you like you have someone know trying to help you out with that pack in is not my strength of my life. I have a lot. That's one of my
weaknesses. No, I still did that for the
Or because I had to figure out what I was going to wear and but I've had people help me. Make clothing, decisions. Let's say now. It's often people who would like to make suits for me. So so I have that as an advantage and but I did that pretty much on my own and anyway, so the well, we were talking about the tour, it's going extremely well and so people come and they're dressed up and they look so great. Everybody dresses up, but everybody looks pretty good. And
I like that, I like when you go into a room and people are dressed up all the way just for
The audience. Just so you know, what topics would like to cover with you today. Number one. We'd like to cover. What a fantastic job. Your Leader is doing true though. And I know you're a big fan of his will cover him a little bit with the trucker's on what they got going on up there in Canada to we'll talk about what happened with Whoopi Goldberg. I'm curious to know what your thoughts are on, what should happen to with the comments. She made about the Holocaust, some of the stuff that's going on right now with John Hopkins. Today, report came out talking about how great of an idea was to shut down.
On and no one's talking about it. They said it was point. Two percent effective. Love to get your thoughts on that. Some issues with a, the governor who came out with what they're doing was trans gender ISM Korea, Governor Nome on the fairness. Bill. I'd be curious to know what you have to say about that and a few other topics that we got going on. That's more of the personal side. When does divorce makes sense? That's a question Adams, really curious about and then some other questions. So today. Do you still live in Canada today? Are you stole full time? Living in Canada right now?
Insofar as it live anywhere full-time. It's in Canada. I have a house in Toronto and we bought a new place about three hours north of Toronto on a lake which we spent a lot of time in Oleg. Let's go. C'Mon. It's very close to that area. That is awesome up there. Yeah, it is. It's beautiful up there. And so that's been real nice. My daughter moved to Nashville partly to escape from the covid restrictions and for other reasons as well, because Nashville has a really burgeoning creative culture and it's a very cool place City. Yeah. It's a great City.
And real estate still is relatively inexpensive certainly by Toronto standards. So
yes, I still still in Canada. Why are you still living in
Canada? Well, I'm living in Toronto because my son and his wife and their, their their son live on the same street that we lived on. WE they purchased a house for years ago. I think it was four years ago. And that was before I assumed that I would be in Toronto.
For the rest of my life. Because I assumed I work at the University of Toronto and continue doing what I was doing until I was like 90 because I really like doing it. And there was just no reason to assume and I had a clinical practice, which I also really liked. And so, that was pretty good life. And I assumed we were there permanently and my son like Toronto. And so we picked up a house and and they live there. And so, but that's really, the reason I'm still in Toronto and how that will play out over time. I don't really know.
So bigger than me, I'm sure you're seeing everybody. That's moving. You know, you got Joe, who went from California to Austin, you saw Shapiro whose company is in Nashville, but he's living here in Boca, right? You're seeing Ruben, who I think just moved in to, I want to say Miami, right? You got Elon Musk goes to Austin. You got your daughter who went to Nashville, right? You got all these people that are looking at, you know, Nashville, Florida, Texas, it seems like those three states tend to make
The most comfortable and they're all red State. What needs to happen for Jordan Pederson to say, I'm kind of leaving Canada to go to a different state with anything happened. That would cause you to leave that place.
Well, I don't think as long as my son's there. I don't think so because that's a big advantage to being there. But we're doing so much traveling my wife and I, that in some sense, we don't live anywhere, you know, I mean, we got it. We were three weeks, two weeks in the UK and then week in.
Anton. And now we've been on the road. We're going to be on the road pretty much non-stop till March of 2023 because this the tour ends in the states. In, in at the end of April, I'll hit 40 cities and then Canada assuming that's possible, but it looks like it probably will be. And then the UK and Europe. We're going to be back in Canada for two months in the summer and then down to New Zealand and Australia and Southeast Asia, and then I'm going to Cambridge. I believe in January.
To do a seminar on Exodus, which is what I wanted to do at Cambridge, multiple years ago before they canceled me. And but that's all been sorted out. And so, it looks like there's a very high probability that that will occur. And then that's really, as far out as we've looked so that be March of 2023 and God only knows what shape the world is going to be. And at that point, there's hardly any sense in planning out, past that because everything is in such flux. There's no predicting
future. I see question for the following reason. So,
you know, there are certain people who do a lot of work behind closed doors, but nobody knows him. There's a lot of smart people that are very intellectual. Great teachers, you know, great students loyalty a ton of strong philosophies who maybe would make a great leader, but we don't know them. Right. And very few. It's a very very few point one percent, all of a sudden, boom, overnight, the world knows who they are and they are enamored by this person. You're one of them.
Kind of what happened to you overnight. Jordan? Who's John Peterson while the people who are in Toronto would know, Jordan Pederson is Professor teacher clinical. I think you had, you said you had 20 patients or 20 families that you were working on. I think that was the number, so it's not like it's in the tens of thousands or hundreds of thousands overnight. The world's addicted to Jordan Peterson, who is this guy and then you have your moment with the lady. That's pushing you feminists and then that goes off and wow. This man's deep and you write the book sells Millions on top of millions of copies.
So that money is being generated money's coming in and everybody else comes and hey speaking this speaking that and that that adds up that starts getting a lot of money and then you had your moment. Remember, when I interviewed you on stage, that that even was a very special event because it was you. And then I had also George Bush. I interviewed at that event, as well as the lake, Kobe Bryant. If you remember that event, that was one even 6,000 people and you got emotional on stage when we talk about your wife and your daughter and I walked off the stage and I said, I think he's dealing with something. I don't know what it is. Talking to my wife.
I said, I think this guy's dealing with something and that was your last live event that you did, and you kind of went Hiatus. And, you know, the whole thing that you were dealing with with the medication and all that stuff, but then I kind of sit and I think about, you know, a Jordan, Peter says, okay. So he makes a comeback. When you go to a dark place and you come back, I would assume you may sit there and say, you know, stuff that I thought I valued it's not really that valuable how I value this though and may be used to evaluate.
You that 82 percent. Now it's 90% you know and stuff that used to value at 48 percent, they give energy to because I do people care, you're down to 22%. I have really don't give a shit about this. I don't know why I'm even putting so much time into it, right? And then you come out and when you come out you kind of like looking around saying
God. Why did I go through this? What was this all about? So it's kind of strange. Should I see someone like you yesterday? I posted something saying, look, this whole thing with Spotify and rogin. I'm sure we'll get into will talk about if that be curious to know what you have to say about that. I really want to know your thoughts. I said, you know, in a very strange way. I would love Spotify to drop Rogan and we're talking, I said, why would you want Spotify to drop Rogan? I said, because the first phone call Rogan would get us from Elon Musk and Elon Musk would say hey, don't worry about it. Let's go.
I'm going to start something you be to face. Let's get a bunch of podcasters come with us. And let's go do something. So, I put this video out there and I got commentary people that are posting stuff. One guy said that's just not Rogue. In Rogue is not trying to be a hero. He's not trying to be a legend. He's not trying to be that. I said, well, if you read the Journey of a hero, as he fights it, until eventually, it's kind of like, listen, man. I know you don't want to do this, but it's kind of like you could really address a lot of things and you're the right guy for body.
I want to do it. We see this in movies all the time. Consul fight fight fight fight fight. I asked a question with you in Canada because
You know who gets more eyeballs in Canada and you I don't know and his Canada in a pretty strange place right now, with the way through those handle things where he used to talk about freedom and we can't ever make people do anything to their bodies that they don't want to do and all them. Soak it. I just got to make sense. Boom. Know if we have to choose between delivering food and delivering this, we're going to choose this because you're like this guy sounds like a dictator. Okay. Is there any aspiration? We're in a moment like this, with all of these weird things taking place worldwide where, maybe you've sat down behind closed doors?
With your family with somebody and have said, you know, Dad Jordan, why don't you go in there and see if you can be the leader of a great country like Canada and do something about it. Has that conversation ever taken place at this phase of your life.
Yes. And well.
I've thought about a political career at different points throughout my whole life starting literally starting. When I was 14. In fact, that's what I thought I would do, when I was 14. I worked for a political party in Canada with Socialist Party as it turns out. And I had that option open to me when I was extremely, when I was very young, but I figured out when I was about 16, that I didn't really know anything. And so I had ideas and I was capable of functioning in the realm of
Diaz and putting them forth even then I would say in a somewhat compelling manner, but I figured out partly because I worked with a lot of small business people and also on the Board of Governors of this little College. I went to, these are all people who built businesses from the bottom up there all immigrants. Because everybody Northern Alberta was an immigrant and they didn't share my left wing presuppositions, but they were very admirable people. And part of what made them admirable to me, wasn't their facility with
logical conceptions. So wasn't an intellectual attraction. It was a practical attraction. God worked in restaurants in this little town. I grew up in Fairview and I liked working with the guys that that that built restaurant. And I talk to them one day about the Socialist Party in Canada and Albert at that time, had a pretty good. Small business platform, probably better than the conservatives had in terms of what it would do for small businesses and I asked them one day, why aren't you in favor of this small business platform? Because they wouldn't
For the NDP, the Socialist Party to save their lives. He said, well, we don't want to be small business people. We want to be big business people. And so I learned then that would have people to me. Well, the guy worked with his name was Scotty Kyle. And Scotty was a rough guy who's about 35. I was about 15 at that time. And Scotty had been an alcoholic and he had like all his teeth knocked out in fights and like he was a rough guy, but he has super funny and he was really smart and he said to me one day, people don't vote their reality. They vote their dreams.
I thought hey man, that's a good phrase. You know that stuck in my mind for the rest of my life. And so so in any case when I went to college, I went I was going to I went to take political science and literature and I wanted to go into law school. I wrote the LSAT and I was set to go to law school. I want to take corporate law. And the reason that I wanted to do that was to understand my enemy. That was the idea.
And who was your enemy? I was the big
corporations.
Yeah, but I realized about a year into my college education for a variety of reasons that partly reading George Orwell, but that wasn't all of it. That I also didn't like I went to a lot of the NDP party and it's new Democratic party. It's not the NDP party new Democratic party conventions provincially and nationally. And I had access to the leadership for a variety of reasons. A lot of the leaders were reasonably admirable people.
Or maybe even completely admirable. People who would work with labor unions and they were really they were advocates for the working class in a real sense. But that party level activists. I never liked them from the beginning. I thought I don't trust you guys. You just seem to be driven by resentment. Not not genuine care for the working class. And so that, that didn't sit well with me. Any case, I started to get interested in psychological motivations for political Behavior, especially as a
Through my political science degree because there was increasing emphasis as we moved away from the classics, which is what I studied in the first couple of years to more modern political thinking, let's say it was all quasi Marxist, in that the political scientists believed intrinsically. That people were only motivated by economic concerns and I just never believed that. I thought, that's which economic concerns, and why while those questions weren't out asked by political scientists,
They took economic determinism as a starting point and that never sat well with me, I thought there was a mystery there because it wasn't obvious to me what motivated people. And we're not ruled by our bellies as far as I'm concerned. So the idea of pure economic determinism was a non-starter and that's really when I started to get interested in Psychology and I've made a choice all the way through my life. The choice is always been say political sociological versus psychological are perhaps spiritual. And I've always chosen
The cycle psychological work at the level of the individual and I don't think I'm going to stop doing that. I mean I have had discussion series discussions with people about a political career. And first of all in my current situation, it isn't obvious to me at all that that wouldn't be less effective than what I'm already doing, you know, so
I wouldn't be less effective or less effective.
Yes, it would be less effective for me to do you mean by that? Well,
I mean, I know,
You mean by that. But what do you mean by that? You mean to tell me, you would your you're having the same amount of impact. Now, as you would as the PM know, I think more you got. All right. Now you're having more
impact. Yeah. Yeah, look at those are hard jobs and it's very and you get boxed in very quickly and they're also brutal jobs and it isn't obvious to me that I have the stomach for it. I don't really like fights. In fact, I don't like them at all. Part of the reason that I said, what I said back in 2016, when I first stood up and
Stop position to what the universities were doing. And also what my government was doing was because I could see where that was going. I could see that it was going to generate conflict of All Sorts. I knew, for example, that all this pronoun, foolishness was going to confuse thousands, particularly of young women because there's a whole, there's a net, very large clinical history of that sort of thing happening for 350 years. So that's detailed in a book called the history of the unconscious, which is a great book by a man named.
Henry Ellenberger, who wrote the best book on the history of psychoanalytic thinking. And so I knew that in any case part of the reason I spoke up and this was a Hallmark of my clinical practice and also of the manner in which my family was organized is like we're to have that fight right now.
We're going to make peace because I don't want to have this fight every day for the rest of my life. And so it's going to be a pain to fight through it because it's always a pain to fight through a conflict. But if you can fight through it, you can make peace and then you don't have the conflict. And I really don't like conflict. So I don't like it deferred because I know what happens if conflict is deferred, you get weaker because you backed off and the conflict gets more intense because its tentacles grow in a sense.
It's like not paying, you're not paying a utility bill. It's like for the first month, it's not that big a problem.
But I don't know. I'm trying to think to say that, you think you're making a bigger impact right now than being a p.m.? I don't have a hard time with that. Let me let me unpack my question a challenge me on this sure. So so so, okay. So let's just say, who is Jimmy Fallon? He is the, you know, hey, I like to be like a Jimmy, Johnny Carson. Hypothetically like that's the Fallon Carson, right?
Who is I don't know, Tucker Carlson. Maybe he's trying to be a all Riley, or maybe whoever it is that the lineage that you're going through. Right? Okay, who's this latest person trying to have? So she's trying to be the next Oprah Winfrey, right? Who would you say what Jordan Peterson's doing in history? Who would you have been in the 1600? Whatever the, you know, the century would go to who is Jordan Pederson? Like if you would have give a 100 years from now, what are people going to say who Jordan Peele?
Orson was they're not going to say. Oh, he was a professor. Oh, he was a clinical psychologist. Well, he was an author. I don't think I'm going to say that. What do you think people going to correlate? You to 100 years
from now, I really have no idea.
So let's just say is it like a philosopher Plato? Would you say you're more of a philosopher? Would you say you're more like an Aristotle? Do you see yourself more as that? Do you see yourself as look, I'm just somebody that share my thoughts and my life experiences and I think I'm like, I'm a clinical psychologist. So, that's kind of how you see yourself.
Yeah, yeah, there's a great. There's a lineage of great clinical psychologist. I'm not saying that I'm in that lineage, but I would say that people who are the most similar to me are people like, while Carl Rogers might be an example, mean he didn't have the same social media platform, but of course no one did. But that's how I see myself intellectually really, really, as a psychologist as a clinical psychologist. And I think that the work I'm doing on my lecture to her is a hybrid of being a professor and being a clinical psychologist.
Gist,
but is it fair to say that's who you were? But you've evolved into something way bigger than just being a clinical psychologist. I think that's what paths. Yeah, nobody getting out of. He's comparing you an are Aristotle of
some capacity. Yeah. Well, I don't know because my focus is still on the individual. Even when I'm lecturing in front of large audiences. I don't exactly lecture. I explore ideas in front of audiences, which is what Rogan does. And I do that, even when I'm when it's a monologue, you know, and you think well, how can you be exploring ideas with the audience?
It's a monologue announcer is, well, you're attending to the audience. You're watching them to see if they understand and if they're nodding and what they're responding to like, there's a dynamism about it and but it's all focused on the individual. And there's been some unbelievably influential clinical psychologists, or psychiatrists mean, Freud was unbelievably influential and so, was Carl Jung and there's a half-dozen sure. So, so I see that. I'm in that Tradition. Now, the fact that this information now can be disseminated.
Emanated in audio form in video form, makes the playing field, radically different. And so I was also a very early adopter of those Technologies. So when I blew up, let's say it happened overnight. It's not not exactly like because most of these things don't happen. Exotics
on your stove, law. That yeah,
the first doublings are invisible, right? Yeah, but
that live outside of the University. Yeah. Well, that was that. That's that's listen. Everybody's like, who is this guy? Yeah, he's right. He makes sense. Should that was a concept of it.
Yeah, sure. There was a Tipping Point there. That was when when there was a free-speech rally outside my office at the University of Toronto. It wasn't organized by me, but I was invited to speak as was anyone who wanted to speak by the way, at that event, and then a bunch of radical types, tried to shut it down with white noise, and they were very annoying, and some of them were clearly Psychopathic. Some of the people, I watched them because I have pretty good eye for that, and some of the men that came out, they were bad, bad actors. In any case I go out, Shanghai.
I'd on the way back into my office. By these these hypothetically trans activist. Mostly young people. That would have been shanghaied. Well, they just surrounded me God, you know, that's all. I mean ganged up on well, kind of they were they were disrespectful which I wasn't very thrilled about because I think that it's not a good.
Students, if students are being disrespectful to to to Professor's, something's wrong. That's not that's not what happens at a university. I had a no tolerance for that in my classes. If you are out of line, you are more than welcome to leave now, and that didn't mean you couldn't challenge me intellectually. That was absolutely fine. If you had a smart question, you were paying attention. I didn't care what your opinion was, but
You know, maybe when you're a junior high teacher or an elementary school teacher, you have put up with misbehavior. Not as a professor. I put up with his like, zero Miss peanuts. No, misbehavior. We're adults. Now. We're not doing that at all.
Did you set the tone for that day? One in the first class? Like, this is how I roll. Yeah, I never had
trouble with students in my class, as well. As a handful of students would pretty much always leave. The first lecture. I gave particularly my personality class because a lot of them didn't know who I was in my smaller classes, people already knew who I was so that never happened. But
My personality class, they're always be six or seven people in the first lecture would make a show of leaving and it was because of the tone. I set which was don't muck about in this class at all. You're here to listen or not. You can leave if you don't want to listen, but this is a serious Endeavor. Any case these students surrounded me, and they filmed it and then they put it online and the object was to discredit me, but that didn't work. And but the reason it didn't work in part and this is
is why this wasn't only overnight was already had 100 hours of lectures on YouTube and I basically recorded everything I ever said to students in any professional capacity. And what I said, my classes was exactly the same as what I said when I wasn't in my classes, so there was no there's no show there. And so people came to look to see what was going on. They came to my YouTube channel and it had like thirty five thousand 50, thousand subscribers at that point, which wasn't none. Especially
That early on in YouTube development and they found out that what I was saying, was not only completely, unlike what I was accused of saying, but it was exactly the opposite partly because, you know, I was accused of being this radical right-wing figure, and I'd lectured about the evils of national socialism at Harvard and at the University of Toronto for, like 20 years. So, the idea that I was somehow, radically, right wing was not only a lie. There's lies, where you bend the truth, right? That's one kind of life. I think
what the
I think what those lectures did is a way for people to not be able to taint your name by saying actually like what this guy has to say hmm thirty-five thousand subscribers, not a lot of subscribers know, but this is where I'm going with this. So you're saying, you see yourself as a clinical psychologist, right? Okay, great, you know, sometimes the challenge I have is to follow like I'm, you know, I said down, so, why is he still in Canada? Maybe there's a bigger aspirations to stay in Canada, because he loves his country and he liked to see Canada, become the country that he chose to live. When
I was a kid growing up in. He's got memories, Mom, Dad, family all this stuff. So maybe to him because some people don't want to leave a country because I want to make a political contribution to that country. Some people like, listen, what country is going to give me the best tax benefits and freedom. I'm going to go there. I'm totally cool. I'm going to go to Singapore. I'll do my Bitcoins. I'll go to Puerto Rico, pay 4% on taxes. This is what I'm going to be doing, right? You seem like a very deep guy. Here's where I go with this.
In my life, I've experienced a lot of weird things, Iran War divorced, parent politics military, you know, this weird things that a business you've seen coming up and hey, we're so supportive of we want to see when Patrick and then I start kind of getting big and also some we're getting bigger like well, we don't like you anymore. What happened? You like me when I was small, you don't like me when I'm big. I'm the same person. What's the problem here? Right. Here's what I've noticed, those who are driven by force are more ambitious.
Is unimposing and having control, then those who are driven by choice. Let me unpack this meaning, you know, sometimes people that are driven by force, are more inspired to get involved in politics and create laws than those who are driven by choice, choices, kind of, like, listen. Let me, leave me alone. Leave me alone. Leave me go live my life, right. If I think, sometimes it's kind of like, you know, you made this one example, you know, who made this example, somebody was on yesterday, saying look, you know, the way I look at foreign relations, Microsoft.
Ritalin is, if I go to a bar and if a fights breaking into a bar and I go in there, no matter what. If I go in there and fight, I'm going to piss off one side. Whether I fight defend the girl or the guy, someone's gonna be upset with me because I chose to fight right. Says, America is kind of like that you're getting into a lot of these fights and you're getting involved in these. There's a fight going on your country right now. Yours and
People are still listening to this guy. He's still got influence and you got me, you know, you know, these truckers that are coming out there esenler something you can't make us do, this is 5,500 miles America. This you want us to get vaccinated. You want us if we don't want to do it want this Freedom, don't you think? You know, this may be a good time for you to throw your name in the, you know, and say hey, you know what? I'm going to go and here's why because I think, 100 years from a, when we sit here and talk about who was the main philosopher when it wrote Lincoln was president, only people in that.
World are going to know who that person is, but everyone's going to know who Lincoln is and what Lincoln did, and the impact he made, right?
Do I think his life was a peaceful life? If you've read about Lincoln and his marriage and that one friend, he would travel with and when you go to the Smithsonian and they show the evolution of how much he aged. It's a pretty, it's a lot of burden of what this guy went through, right, but he was chosen and he was the right guy for it. Do you don't at all? Feel like, you know,
no, it's again. I think I can detail out some of the reasons. I think I'm more effective doing what I'm doing while I'm working with a lot of political people in the United States, both on the Republican and the
Outside all the time. And I couldn't do that. If I was involved formerly in technically, in politics in Canada. I'm working with a bunch of people in the UK as well. And so, and I'm working with people in Canada. It's just more effective for me to do what I'm
doing. I don't know about that. I don't know. I can give you an
example with the trucker's, you know, so and a couple of examples. So we can half ago, the former premier of Newfoundland. So equivalent of the governor of a state. He was the Premier Inn.
In the 1980s and he was one of the drafters of the Canadian Charter of Rights. So we actually wrote it with a bunch of other people, but he was one of them and he's a mainstream solidly admired politician across the Spectrum. Regarded as a decent guy, and he mounted a constitutional challenge to the vaccine mandates. Announced it a week ago. Stating that see, they put an emergency provision in the charter saying that under certain emergency.
It is true emergencies that Charter rights could be suspended in the case of a national emergency, but he's not convinced in the least that the covid epidemic even at its height constituted such an emergency. He said that was not the intent of the drafters and certainly doesn't constitute that emergency now. And so he talked me through this and I thought, well, isn't this interesting. We have a person who actually drafted the charter of right saying that the and a, former premier of a major
Province saying that the government is acting in an essentially unconstitutional manner. I don't think that's ever happened in the history of a western democracy. And I said, well, okay. That's something. He's 82 now, sharp, as a tack.
Why do you want to announce this on my podcast? Because that's preposterous. And he said, well, our team has talked it over and we don't think there's one news source in Canada. That will handle his credibly. I thought that's not good. So we released that week and a half ago, which was time, very nicely. As it turned out with the trucker's protest because people are saying, well, are the truckers breaking the law. And the question is while just exactly who's breaking the law here.
And that's by no means obvious. And so, that was extremely helpful and then about a few days. After that. I released another video calling on the conservative types and Canada, to seize the moment given this popular Uprising, and the fact that countries all over the world are dropping the covid. Mandates to seize the moment and drop the mandates at a provincial level is enough is enough and somebody's got to be the first actor and
So that got million and a half views in no time flat. And so I'm able to play a useful role as a well on the media front weirdly enough. But also as a someone who standing apart from the from the details of the political Fray,
I mean I get that but you know, it's like saying if Reagan would have stayed being to be actor or a GE going, getting paid a million dollars a year to go around the world and talking about his political philosophies and how great GE is, or
President of sag would he have been able to tell Gorbachev to take that wall down? I don't think so. Would he have influenced the country like Russia to become a little bit more free where people are staying there, not leaving their little bit more comfortable staying there. Because now there's a capitalistic opportunity. It's no longer, communism, Karl Marx and Engels. And those guys don't have the influence that they had before because Stalin and Lenin. And what travesty they did to people does that credit go to Gorbachev. Does it go to who it goes to Reagan? Right? So if you think about Churchill and Chamberlain to
soldier in it,
Into I told ya he was a right obviously a writer. And so it's look. I mean, it's not like I know what I'm saying, there isn't. It's not like the political domain doesn't have its purpose and its function and but there's a lot I would have to stop doing if I did that and it isn't obvious to me that that's the right thing for me to do partly again because
I started doing what I'm doing back and say, probably 1985 because I realized that one of the pathways to totalitarian catastrophe was deceit at the individual level. This is something that soldiered it's and made very much Ivor. Well, as well Huxley as well. These great thinkers concluded in aftermath of these totalitarian catastrophes, that there was an integral link between pathology at the individual level which
Is fundamentally the willingness to use deceit in an instrumental manner. I'll lie to you to get what I want and authoritarian catastrophe. And that it was a direct causal link and actually buy that argument. I think that's literally true. And so partly what I'm doing, I hope is helping people walk through thinking about why telling the truth is a good idea. Not only for them, not not as a top-down shake your finger moral injunction, don't lie.
Why you shouldn't lie, but in an in a detailed manner to explain the relationship between the instrumental use of Deceit and the collapse of civilizations and that connection is way closer than people think, you know, so one person is influences, a thousand people for sure in their lifetime and sometimes a lot more than that. And thousand, you know, the next rung out from that 1000 times, 1000 is a million in the next rung out from. That is a billion and so you're always at the center of a concentric Circle.
That two rungs out contains a billion people. Well, it turns out that what you do matters and basically what I'm doing I hope is touring and talking to people face-to-face in these lectures for example and making the case that it's a terrifying case. Everyone says, well we want meaning in our life. It's a do you now, do you know? Because you might ask yourself? What's the more threatening possibility that nothing you do matters? Which means you can
Pretty much do whatever you want. That's the upside of that nihilistic claim. No responsibility. Right. And why not pursue narrow focused Hedonism since nothing matters. Anyways, so that's the shadow of nihilism or everything you do matters, and it's a lot more terrifying to contemplate that is that you will be held accountable for everything you do. And I believe that firmly partly, as a consequence of my clinical experience. I never saw.
Any one of my clinical clients ever, get away with anything even once and you think what, people, get away with things all the time. It's like, no, they don't. They might gain a narrow advantage in one dimension in the short term. But you know, let's say that you your you use deceit in your business practices. First of all, that doesn't work very well because people will figure you out. So as a long-term puzzle, as a long-term strategy, it's
Terrible just doesn't work. No one is going to play with you if you're a cheat, but let's say that.
Look at something nice to me. Someone
asked me the other day. Well, what about these dictators that, you know, ruled their whole life and they were at the top of the hierarchy, let's say and they had all the power Stalin's. A perfectly good example. It's like, didn't he win? Well, everyone Stella never talked to lied to him because they are absolutely bloody terrified of him. His country was a nightmare.
It was a hell or as close as we've been able to produce with the possible exception of the Nazis in the maoists, but it was up there in terms of hell and did he rule? Yes, but he ruled hell and if you think that's a victory, well go ahead and try it and see how much of a victory. It is. No Milton's. Satan said, I'd rather rule in Hell than serve in heaven. It's like fair enough. Go ahead use deceit, use instrumentality rule in Hell. You'll be the ruler. See how much good it. Does. You see where that takes you into.
You somewhere terrible. And so, I'm much more interested in talking, those things through with people. And I do do political work. But, but it's not the right thing for
me. I got the last question for you on this and then we can move on to the next topic. So Churchill, you know, his writing what he did, kind of start a like you at a very young age. He's not, he's a guy that if you follow his writing, the guy has done a lot of stuff, right? And then eventually last-minute. Hey, we can't figure this guy from Germany. We need your help Chamberlain. Step the way. Hey goes. And recruit the
Guy that he hates the most and we know how history ends up. We speak in English today, big part of because the Churchill but this last question, you know, how you said at this phase of my life. This is what I'm doing. Do you think? Do you think the right thing to do is what what's always, what we want to do? Or sometimes we have to do things that maybe the world or family or somebody else's relying on us to make a decision. That's more
Impactful that to the world than what would be more fruitful to us.
I think that happens a lot. You know, I have a, I don't know, a fantasy I suppose and I don't know how well thought through it is, but one of the things I've been thinking about doing is I'm writing another book at the moment which I plan to publish in the next year and a half or something like that. It's called. We who wrestle with God. And
And perhaps they'll be at or associated with that. And I want to do a public lecture series on Exodus but I've been pursuing more Artistic Endeavors recently again in detail. I did some of that in when I first went to graduate school. I made it variety of paintings and so forth that I really like doing that and I really like doing this. I've been working on a musical project with a friend of mine and with my family, which is really, it's really fun. I really like it a lot and I wrote a screenplay. That's a musical which I really
I doing, I have seemed to have somewhat of a gift for writing verse weirdly enough, especially amusing verse. I think it's amusing and some other people have thought so and it's really playful and fun. And I think I could do that. I could do a lot of that and it would be in many ways less demanding than what I'm doing now, and I've talked to my family about that, but they seem to think that, you know, when my wife and I planned this to her, I was
Bubbly ill still and it just seemed like a pipe dream that this was ever going to occur. But if we were going to try it, we had to do it months in advance. And so but, you know, I outlined the to her for her with my agents and she said, I asked her when we got off the phone. He said, you want to do this and she said, yes. And I was quite surprised that actually, I mean, Tammy had been unbelievably ill for months and months and months, like a death's doorstep. Every day for like eight months. It was awful. And yet she was on board and
You know, it's got this great adventurous element to it. And it seems to your point that the time is right, for it, whatever it is. And so away we go, and that's what we're doing. And it would be possible in principle for me to be in my cabin up, north and record, music, and engage in artistic activities, and be with her and my family in a more private way.
Now, I don't know if I'm suited for that, you know, the, so that's why I'm saying, well, maybe it's a pipe dream because I really like being as busy as I can possibly be all of the time, you know, and I've kind of trained myself for that. I started training myself for that.
Really, when I went to graduate school because I wanted to find out how much I can do and I like running at top speed all the time. And so maybe I wouldn't be suited for that, you know, and although the days we've spent weeks, we spent engaged in it. I have an art book coming out strange. Art project is going to cost all sorts of trouble coming out, probably in September, October, and a bunch of music that will accompany that, which is also going to cause a lot of trouble. I believe.
I really enjoyed doing it. It's really engrossing and fun and playful and and I liked working on the screenplay. We've got a bunch of music being recorded for it. And that's called The Water of Life. The screenplay. It's a great old, fairy tale. So, but to your point, sorry, you have a responsibility beyond the narrow confines. Let's say of a particular interest, even if it's an artistic interest to generate interest in sure. And you play the role that is set in front of you that constitutes.
Is the best path forward and there's obviously a market for what? I'm
Discussing a market, let's say, an interested audience. And so and I love doing that too. That's the other thing. I love doing it. Pat.
Yeah. Can I ask you a question? Because I think the line of questioning that you're asking. Dr. Peterson
is overall you're
talking about being the reluctant hero. That was the sort of the initial analogy that you gave you gave with Joe Rogan worth. Like the guy said that's not what Joe is. Joe is not trying to be a hero and you're like sometimes
You know, it's not who you want to be. It's who people need you to be. I mean, it's like the show isn't trying to be a hero, you just know. Okay, so we're oh, yeah, but but, you know, it's almost like Neo from The Matrix. Yeah. It's like we need you. You're the chosen one. Yeah, what are you talking about? So Pat essentially, what he's asking you is like Lincoln, you know, Churchill, Trump, even
these are people whether they were reluctant heroes or not.
These are people that had changed, have changed the world.
You're more saying like look Sigmund, Freud
Gandhi, you know, more
the philosophical line. But ultimately, what I think Pat is getting at is like, who changes the world more
dignitaries presidents, Prime Ministers or thinkers anchors
and you say it's thinkers. So know for sure. It's think a so that is ultimately, and that's even why someone that's right.
Both Churchill and Link. Do you go, t, that's that's, I mean, they're a melding of the tips and exam occur in a little unique. Yeah, so that's
ultimately what you're
Your line of questioning. All I'm saying is listen. All I'm saying, is the following. I'm sitting there looking at a lot of guys that should there should throw their name in the and go out there and compete and they're not. Yeah, that's a
problem. Yeah. Okay. So that's pretty good. Look, a
lot of people, I know who would make
excuse me, who would make extraordinarily competent political leaders. So these are people who've built exceptionally complicated Enterprises from the bottom up in an extremely creative and diligent way. And who mastered that?
They won't throw their hat in the political ring partly because they have other things they're doing that. Are they regard as more significant and often they are. And this is a big problem because what it means is that, perhaps is that the pool of qualified, political candidates is much narrower than it might, otherwise be so. And that's something you're obviously wrestling with. Ethically, you know, when are you coming when you called upon to throw your hat in the ring, in some sense? Despite your own personal interests?
I don't have any contempt for the political Arena. You know, I think it's a big mistake for people. People go from naive to cynical and then they think cynicism is wisdom and it is compared to naivety but it's not compared to what comes after cynicism, which is something like courageous trust. And that's the right attitude towards out to have towards the political sphere and often people don't want to take the risk of courageous trust. And so they justify that avoidance with their cynicism. I'm not like that. I know the political
Realm is valuable and necessary and and I don't have contempt for it. And I don't think anyone should it's a mistake because it's your system man, and your Sovereign, your in its sovereign individual. It's your system. If it's corrupt, that's on you. I can have in a definite sense and people say, well, there isn't anything I can do is one person. It's like Joe Rogan's, one person and he didn't. He, his success is really remarkable. First of all, you can
Just push it aside as chance because Rogan was a good fighter, that's hard. And then he was a good comedian and that's really hard. Maybe no harder than being a fighter but hard and then he had a pretty good TV career and that's hard to forget. He was on news
radio, which was, yeah. I mean, it was good at Rogen's.
Rogen has stabbed back sir. Yes, exactly. Stat established his credibility in three different domains. And then it's also extremely difficult to be a good interviewer. You actually
have to listen. Yeah, and he listens and so-and-so Rogan's. Rogan's are very good example of someone who as an individual.
Stayed closely allied with the truth and has had well, his we have no idea what his impact is going to be because Rogen has 11 million listeners per episode. Now, I see, absolutely no reason why he won't have 20 million listeners per episode in a year, especially if people keep trying to take them out. And it's so funny, especially watching CNN. Go after him, you know, they're all treating the mainstream media. They keep treating Joe, like, he's The Fringe. I think, are you people? Well, I know you're the
Legacy news, media sources are dying all their really competent. People have already gone off to do other things because they could and, and they're, they're living in like 1975, which is very weird place to live at the moment and they look at Rogan. They think. What does he and saying an guy who's criticizing the other day said, we have all these departments devoted to news
analysis. Real disability. Yeah. We
Rogan is just winging. It's like you try.
I winging it buddy in front of 11 million people and see how successful you would think that's easy. Dancing. On a tightrope. Where any word you say that's false is going to result in. Well, complete and utter pillar airing of you from multiple news media sources all over the world every day, which is what's happened to Joe non-stop in the last month despite the fact that he hasn't said anything stupid. So wing it. You think that's so easy. It's not so easy and look what he's done. It's like
It's amazing and all he's done. All,
what do you thinks gonna happen with him with
Spotify? Oh, Spotify won't will remove Rogan. You don't think so
what he got out of their mind. What are the odds he dropped from 60 billion dollar? Valuation? 236, that's 24 billion. You think the board is sitting there there die-hard, Joe Rogan fans, or do you think their profit margin top line revenue
fans? Oh, I hope that I would rather that they were the latter, the profit.
In types because that's what a corporation should do, and I trust them or if they were doing that with you. But I also think that if they have any sense and I know how this is going to turn out, it's it's turned out my life like 50 times. This will the heat goes on the pressures on your, in the desert. It's unpleasant. You waited out, you wait it out, you waited out, if you haven't done anything wrong, you, wait it out. You don't apologize. You don't back down. You wait and things viciously turn in your favor. Now, waiting it out while
Roasting, that's not pleasant. And if the Spotify types have any sense, they think. Yeah. Well, that's a drop, but, you know, it's part of the death throes of the Legacy Media. And once all the dust settles CNN will have half the viewers they have now and Joe Rogan will have twice the viewers and we'll be doing just fine and Rogan. As long as he keeps doing what he's doing. He came out on Instagram. This is so funny. He came out and Instagram to talk about all this a few days ago, and I thought you nailed it Joe, he
I'm out and he said it's a paraphrase and I'm going to do it a bit. Comedic lie. He basically said well everyone knows I'm kind of a lunkhead and I have lots to learn and I probably haven't managed this like perfectly because I do my own scheduling and I just talked to people. I'm interested in and so possibly I could have presented a more balanced view, some of the time and I'll try to do better in the future. And so all that like mate Legacy Media said, Joe Rogan apologizes, which is not really the case and then he talked about how much he
Neil Young and none of this was for show. None of this was
was, is a sincere. Yes. Absolutely. And what all the story when he was a new Young concert. I've secured a fantastic,
great man. And so as long as Rogan keeps doing that, and he's been doing it for five years and he's it's not like he hasn't faced pressure before. It's clear to me that he's I just can't see any scenario short of his assassination that ends up in Rogan not having 20 million viewers an episode in a year. And so
As long as he's careful, like he is, I don't think Rogan can be canceled.
So even if Spotify dump some, it's like who's dumping who here Rogue and he's on Spotify. It's not necessarily Spotify. Might be on Rogan. It's not so clear. And so what's going to happen? They kick them off. Well, he'll just have another platform like tomorrow immediately. Yeah, and he'll have all the money Spotify during which was actually quite a lot of money. You'll have to wait.
Exactly. So many more. Did you hear did you see what Pat had to say about this topic yesterday? I don't know. I think Rogan is a billion Auto guy. I think Ilan needs to sign a 20 or
The million-dollar, your contract would Rogan and start a company like a social media company choose, which route you want to go direct competitor to YouTube to Google to. It's not like Elon hasn't done it. He didn't create a company that was revolutionary. He went against cars, cars. Have been around for a while and invent cars. Yeah, but what I'm saying is cars and Rockets have been around so it's not like he wouldn't invented the rocket or invented a car. You don't need to invent something. Just go direct against you to go directing and Spotify. Go and Ilan and Rogan.
Could pull it off with the help of Peter Thiel. It'll work itself out in the recruit. The right people don't like a few phone calls in the world's going to come say, hey, if you like to have a platform for freethinkers and where you're not going to be censored, give us a call or you know, do this and would take off. But going back to the question with you. You're not watch you when you get interviewed and I say this to myself. I'm like, okay, here's a clinical psychologist. Okay, what does he do for a living? You, you are in the you listen to
Re, you know, prop, you know, whatever problems you hear, people tell you, right? If you really don't want to entertain an idea and you want to push it away. You'll do it in your own creative way. You're you Euro. You're a you're a heavyweight champ, you know, heavyweight type of guy that's gone up against everybody and you know, how to handle a topic that you don't want to hand. You don't want to talk about or give the answer to your pro. You've been around the block for a while. I just think for you, you know to to think about like right now, when we're talking about,
I think as an individual, we can make more impact than being a p.m. Or being a president or somebody like that. Canada is in shambles right now because of true, those policies Canada, shut down right now because of true,
those of us not just true. Do you know there's lots of conservative premiers in Canada who done exactly the same thing
as flip it. If true, those philosophies were different, the other guys wouldn't be able to do what they're doing. If Trudeau had the influence at the top, it would have been open. Can you pull up the marker at the John Hopkins article? I just want to really help you get your
That article. Yeah. So here's a CNN. MSNBC New York Times. Wopo Washington, Post, completely avoid John Hopkins, study finding covid. Lockdowns ineffective. FYI. Would you say John Hopkins is a conservative organization like Hoover Institute. No or Heritage there. No Johns.
Hopkins is one of the most reliable medical scientific research Enterprises universities in the world Bar. None.
That's very important for me. John's only reliable. So it's not like it's a CNN or this is like you hard. This is
Is Harvard exact stirred. Cambridge level Johns Hopkins, especially in the medical domain? So watch this ABC, CBS NBC also ignored the antilog block down study. So go up. Let me read this. So here we go. There has been a full-on media blackout on to study online didn't, if ineffectiveness of lockdowns to prevent covid, debts. According to John Hopkins, University men on Lila's analysis of several studies lockdowns during first covid, wave in Spring of 2020. Only reduce Kovac mortality by point two percent, that is not a lot in us. And in Europe, while the men are now
Says, concludes that lockdowns have had little to no Public Health effect. They have imposed enormous, economic and social cost where they have been adopted. The researcher wrote in consequence, lockdowns policies are ill-founded and should be rejected as a pandemic policy instrument. If you can go a little higher, want to read the next two and I'll get Jordan thoughts. However, the Johns Hopkins study received, no mention on any of the five liberal networks this week according to gradient a transcript, see,
CNN MSNBC ABC, CBS, NBC all ignored anti lock, Downs findings. After having spent much of the pandemic, shaming red states with minimal restrictions and events deemed by critics as super spreaders. It wasn't just, the Network's avoiding the study, the New York Times, The Washington Post the Associated Press Reuters, USA Today axios, political amongst other outlets also tuned a black. A blind eye to the findings. According to search results. Jordan. How important is this research? Like how important is, is this analysis that were reading?
Right. Now, what
is it? I should tell you. What a meta-analysis is. Please begin with. Well, imagine. There's a group of studies done on a particular topic and you write a review and you try to interpret the findings that was called a narrative review. Use your opinion in some sense to Wade, through the data and try to understand what the compilation of studies reveals. Well, there are techniques developed 25 years ago, that our statistical where you can aggregate the
The results from studies statistically. So you do a statistical analysis of all the statistical analysis, and now it's a meta-analysis and hypothetically, it's more objective and there's some truth to that claim. You still have to select which studies to include, but I don't believe that that was a detriment in this particular case and so solid methodology and it's basically something approximating a cost-benefit analysis and that has its that's tough too, because it's not that easy to assign costs and benefits in a quantitative.
Manor. Having said all that, it's well. It's an amazing study. Not only because of what it reveals which is a point two percent decline in overall mortality. But also in that the the researchers felt so strongly about their findings that they came right out and said that this was ineffective policy and that, isn't that common for researchers who generally hold off on drawing that sorts of conclusions.
They kind of lay out the files black and white. They're typically not going to come out as black and white is what you're saying.
Yes. Yes, exactly. Exactly. And so, so that's that's really something we rushed to imitate a totalitarian state in panic and the consequence of that, according to this study was, there is zero. There's nothing positive about it. Now. I've talked with some Democrats about this study because they were paying attention to it. And their response is something like well,
It did help control Hospital over run and time will tell whether or not that's true. I think the data suggesting that covid vaccines decreased the seriousness of illness when people contracted covid who were vaccinated, I think that data is credible. I could be wrong about that because things are being done in a rush and it's very difficult to draw appropriate scientific conclusions in a rush, but I think the bulk of the
Nation suggest that. But I also think that is not how they were marketed. And that was not the initial intent to merely reduce severity of the illness. It was to reduce transmission and and so forth. And and then of course, this is a cost-benefit analysis, which says yeah, there was some gain on that front, conceivably Maybe.
Although all-cause mortality, doesn't seem to have gone down much at all. But the economic the secondary consequences were devastating and well, we don't even know what the secondary consequences are yet, you know the kalu. Here's one, secondary consequence, which is revealed in what you just read the collusion of the press and the government. Like, how do you know that's not worse than the epidemic? It could easily be worse than the epidemic or the idea that now
We've been coerced into.
Having to share our medical information with people, all through the bureaucratic hierarchy, all the way down to servers and restaurants. So we train people that that's okay to ask. And also to offer is that worse than the pandemic. Well, these are, arguably, all of. This involves violation of our fundamental rights. Where's the evidence? That, that's not worse while we're going to see it play out. Well, the collusion between the press and the government that's so intense.
It's in Canada, as already said, when the premier of ex-premier of Newfoundland wanted to launch his constitutional challenge, he couldn't use a mainstream news source. We got some bloody catastrophe much as I dislike CBC, which is a lot, by the way, I think that it's an absolute catastrophe that it's come to that and that's just one of you know, to consequences of the lockdown. There's the supply chain problem. That's a big one. You know, I my publisher penguin told me
Week and a half ago. We're talking about putting out a two-volume set of my last two books, which I would really like to do. They're going to do that in Great Britain. I think that people would turn to it as a gift for graduations and so on, that would be a nice set for that. They told me they can't get paper.
This is penguin random house, right? And it's paper.
Paper isn't that complex given how complex, everything is the fact that there are paper shortages. That's a big deal. I was in a Mazda dealership in Canada, couple up be a couple of months ago now that one car.
One isn't very many cars, you know. And so, we have no idea what the supply line crunch is going to produce in terms of economic conspiracy though. And then the next issue is well, how about all the money we've been printing? You know, we've already seeing that produce a massive bubble expansion in housing prices. That's being driven by other factors. How do we know that's not worse than the pandemic, you know, it could easily be. I'm not saying that it is because I don't know.
But that's the issue. I don't know, and this is partly. Why this mad rush to impose top-down solutions to complex problems. This is in some sense. What makes me a conservative insofar. As I am. It's part of the caution. I learned, as a social scientist. Social scientists. I'll give you an example. This is a good example. I worked with this woman named Joan McCord, and she was one of America's great, criminologists, and a
Man, who is involved as a faculty member? When very few women were she participate in the study?
In Boston in Somerville, which is a working-class community back in the 30s.
They did the first large-scale intervention to deflect children from a criminal pathway. So they're looking out deprived inner-city kids thinking, they have a higher probability than average to become criminal and, and to suffer all sorts of other negative consequences as well or to inflict them. And perhaps, you could intervene at an early age, n't and stop that or slow it down at least. And so they put together very comprehensive.
Out of interventions, parent will lessons for the parents lessons for the kids health and nutrition. Interventions whole broad spectrum of all the things you think Canada, this was in the United States in Somerville, Massachusetts, famous study, Somerville study, one of the first large-scale psychological Public Health interventions by would say and targeting a problem. That was Troublesome for left-wing people and right-wing people.
Like the right-wingers would think. Well fewer criminals. That's good in the left-wingers would think well, let's do some remediation at the root of the cause. So everyone was hoping this work and everyone was happy about it. The kids thought it was good, parents thought it was good. The researchers thought it was good. They also put kids, they took the kids out of the inner city in the summer and put them out in Camp because of Nature and all of that and wouldn't that be a nice break for them and then they did the analysis.
And the kids in the intervention group did worse on virtually every measure worse, like substantially worse. And so they were all shocked and seriously shocked in a major way. Fact, Joan McCord was so shocked. She spent the rest of her life going around talking about what had happened.
Turns out that it's a really bad idea to group antisocial prone kids together in camps in the summer because they learn to compete with each other in terms of the manifestation of antisocial behavior and they get better at it. It's like criminal camp. And so that single consequence of one part of the intervention, was so negative that it overwhelmed the entire study and produced negative results. So McCord, she was part of a group of very very
Re able social scientist that I worked with when I was in Montreal, a broad group and it was an international group and they beat the drum all the time. Never never. Never, never do a large-scale intervention without building in an evaluation 25% of your intervention budget should be evaluation. Because you do not know that you're stupid Intervention, which you think will do what it do. You think it will do? That's just a guess. It's a guess and it could go wildly wrong.
Ten ways, you don't predict. If you've ever run studies in lab trying to predict how people are going to behave. You figured this out real soon because they don't behave the way. What was the old idea? Put a lab rat in a cage under controlled conditions and the route will do exactly what it damn. Well chooses to do and that's true for rats. It's even more true for people. And so these large scale interventions, which the pandemic lockdown was certainly one of those is like and this is the conservative objection.
The law iron law of unintended consequences. Do something large scale to systems. You don't understand at all. Not a bit. You know, we have just in time supplied now, right? And you think about how efficient a, and economy has to be to rely on just-in-time Supply. So it used to be that if you ran an industry, maybe you're making your, you're a car manufacturer. You have a warehouse full of Parts, but the parts are just sitting there and so that's like money invested. That's
Not accruing, any interest. It's a cost and you have to store it that's cost. And so that's an expense. And so maybe you want to just have your parts supplier Supply, the parts exactly when you need them and then maybe the parts supplier has to get the metal just exactly when they need it. And so on all the way down to the minors and maybe that's in China. Then you think there's 30 steps there in every bloody thing has to work absolutely perfectly on time for that to work at all. And then you throw a lock down into that. It's like well you've never run.
Business. You have no idea how things, how complicated things are. You think electricity comes out of plugins in the wall, you know, that's not a complicated problem. You just put the plug in and there's the electricity and you muck things up and 50 different directions. And that's what we've done and God only knows what we've done and then this issue that the you know, the mainstream press won't cover this. You
think he'll reason, they're not as just purely embarrassed, the fact that this is going to lose lose even more credibility with the audience that what we've been saying this entire time.
Um, we've been wrong. We haven't done real true invest. No, I don't know. I
don't think that's it. I think. No, I don't think that's it. If that was the reason I could understand. That reason. I think it's part of this implicit and explicit collusion. It's like this isn't the story and so we're not going to report it and I think that economically even that's a foolish decision because Newsweek, I've been reading, Newsweek recently Newsweek has some journalists. They actually have some real information again, which is quite
interesting to see if told still a little
Magazine it. Yeah, but couldn't find. My experience has been in the last couple of months. I thought her Igor. There's some actual news in Newsweek. And so that was just a ready to know,
but I see all this not only as collusion, which is absolutely appalling. So that's the death of Journalism because journalists are colluding with politicians. It's like, well, they're not journalists anymore and they're also not politicians. Because if they were politicians and journalists, they wouldn't be colluding. Whatever they are. As a consequence of this collusion is not politicians and journalists. It's some completely new.
New thing now, I'm less worried about it than I might be because I also see it as part of the inevitable death spiral of the Legacy Media, their dad and why. Well, they don't have a monopoly over the dissemination of information at All. YouTube. For all of its flaws, which are manifold, is an unbelievably powerful and accessible technology milk. Where the cost of Entry is 0. It's like no TV station can compete with that period, they're done. And then these
Media sources, especially when they're great people. Barry Weiss might be example, leave because they can't say what they want to. They don't have to lose much of their talent before. All they've got left is hacks. And then everyone can publish to an international audience instantly online. So part of what we're seeing in the mainstream media is a technologically, fueled death spiral and I know how large corporations died. So there's this principle Pareto Principle, which is that the square root of the
The number of people in a given creative, Enterprise do half the work. And so if you're a news organization with the thousand people, 30 of them, do half the work and you think no. And you can think that all you want but you're just wrong because this is one of the most well-established findings and social science period. So you got 1,000 people and 970 of them are putting in time and 30 of them are doing half the work and then something shifts. Those people can't say what they want to say. Let's say the 30, the 30 do, what do they do?
Well, they leave why? Cuz they can write these are people, their undies are competent people. They're really smart there on the edge. They're tough. They have immense networks of connections. As soon as the ship rocks. They think ciao you think I need you. It's like you got you got your priorities wrong. You need me. They go off like Barry Weiss didn't start their own thing. And so then you're left with the 970. That was only doing half the work day. And then the next 30 competent people.
People leave and soon. All you've got is people who run the Legacy Media and they just and they say things like well Joe Rogan people should listen to him because he just Wings it. It's like how clueless can you possibly be or you have people like at CNN who treat Rogan like he's an outsider. Despite the fact that he's pulling in numbers that are at least five five to eight times their average viewership. Joe is fringe. It's like really we'll see who's Fringe here. And so and
This
is purely technological. So there's no way these Legacy apparatus has can compete. How can they printing is for printing with universal? Distribution is free video with universal distribution is free. How can a network possibly compete? It can't so spiral death. And as they die, they lose their editors. They lose their fat fact-checkers. They lose their good journalists. They lose everybody with courage and then they put out pablum and they
And they're tempted by clickbait because that's what you have to do. While you're dying is like Christ. We have to attract attention somehow. So you say, well, Joe Rogan apologized and everybody clicks on it and they read it and they think that's a lie. And so you've lost another 5% of your
viewership. CNN is probably sitting in their board meetings saying God, please. We need Trump to be president again, because when he was President, we were making money. We need somebody like that to be president. There begging the sky to come back. Anyway, I didn't have CNN ends up like, putting him on left and right.
And then, you know, to berate him but at the same time, they're getting more eyeballs, but going back to it. Okay. So Joe, Jordan, let's just say you are the PM of Canada. Let's just play this. Let's just say game. Okay, and you watch the decisions Justin made his your p.m. You live in that country how we handle truckers. How handle vaccine, how he handled lockdowns, how he handled everything. How would you have handled some of those things if you were to p.m. Of
Canada?
Well, I'd have to say that I don't know because those decisions are extremely complicated, you know, and it's very hard to speculate. I do have something to say about that though that I think is relevant when I watch mr. Trudeau.
Through through the lenses that I've developed over the years. I see someone who never ever says a true word.
And so I've met lots of people like that. They're all Persona and everything. They do is crafted in a sense to obtain. What they think is appropriate in the situation. Whatever that might be. It's all instrumentality. And so when mr. Trudeau comes out and addresses his audiences, it's all. It's all a game. It's all an act, all of it. And so what I would hope I would have done differently. If I was in that position is I would have said, what I
thought and hope that that
I always think that's the way that carries the day. It doesn't mean you're right because what the hell do, you know? But at least it means you're engaging in the process that might make you write, if you opened up your eyes and your ears and listened, right? And so what to do isn't in a complex situation, in some sense isn't as important as how you do it, right? What approach do you take when, when when the chips are down and and things are tense, the good politicians that I've met.
This is relevant to this, they listen, you know, they go out among their people actually go out and they listen to them. And that way, they learn what to do. And that's not opinion. Polls opinion. Polls are and our got my country and yours to a large degree is ruled by opinion, polls to a degree. You can can't possibly imagine because the politicians won't take responsibility for saying what they think. And so then they default to their handlers and their handlers rely on opinion, polls and opinion polls.
Is provide a bad short-term. Sample of people's careless thoughts and you think while you're following the public it's no you're not the entire parliamentary system is set up to follow the public in an intelligent way. It's not easy to figure out what people think or what they want. It isn't even any easy for individuals to figure out what they themselves. Think our want. It's really hard and these Traditions that we've set up of representative democracy are ways of listening to the people.
All that are measured and thoughtful and long-term and they are being supplanted by idiot opinion. Polls that are run by people who have instrumental desires. They want to win the next election. And I know you have to win the damn next election, you know, but pandering to a mob who's frightened because you scared them, that doesn't constitute leadership, certainly, not democracy. There's a reason we don't have direct democracy.
There's a reason for that, it's like rule by impulse. It's not a good structure. It's not a good strategy. We're we figured that out a long time ago. Our organizations are way too large and complex for anything, like direct democracy to work. We're going to want to have a, we're going to have a vote on every issue. Obviously not people, just don't have the expertise for that, and it's not like they shouldn't be consulted. They absolutely should be, the voice of the people is the sovereign,
Master of the political Enterprise, but
what a leader does is aggregate that voice. I'll give you an example. This is a good
example. What a leader does is activate aggregate aggregate that voice.
Yes. Yes. Yes collects, it collects it. So I interviewed Jimmy Carr, the British comedian. He's very, very smart car and I asked him how he did, what he did and I kind of knew this from other comedians. I've talked to, he said,
The comedy stand-up comedy is the most dialogical of all the artistic Enterprises. I thought. Well, what do you mean like by that? Because he actually you have a monologue. What do you mean? It's dialogical. He said well before I go out on a tour and he said a couple of successful World Tour, so that's pretty good when you're that funny, that's amazing. He said, he'd go out and do a hundred shows, Rogan does the same thing all the comedians do the same thing. Louis c.k. Does this they all do it? They go to small clubs and they try
Outer material. So they're sitting at home trying to be funny and sometimes they are and sometimes they're not and then they go to an audience and they lay out some jokes and
Sometimes people laugh a lot and sometimes they don't. And so the comedians who do this repeatedly, listen and then they collect all the things that people think are funny and so isn't it? So cool is that you don't even have to be that funny in some sense to be a comedian. You have to be a little bit funny and then you really have to listen. And so if you go out to your audience and you tell them jokes and they tell you what's funny, then you can collect all the things that everyone thinks is funny. And then you can go on a world tour in just say
Is that everyone thinks you're funny. It's so cool. It's that that's the pathway pants aggregate, that great. Exactly, exactly. So when the comedians are doing what, what? A political leader, who, who is functioning properly? Does it? They're doing exactly the same thing. I talked at length to a Canadian politician Preston Manning. He's on the right of the of the political spectrum and he built a political party from scratch in Canada and became the leader of the
Position, which is no trivial thing to do in the span of a single lifetime or even in the fraction of a career, which is what he did. And he told me that what he really liked was going out to make a speech, but that wasn't party, really. Like he really liked the question period because people would just tell him what they were concerned about and then he derived the policies for his party as a consequence of addressing those concerns. So it was really a bottom-up Enterprise and so
I would hope that had I been in that position, I would do what I'm doing when I'm on my tour, which is watching people and listening to them and then responding. And this happens, first of all, when I lecture
Which isn't exactly the right word when I explore ideas in front of people. I'm watching them like a hawk blinded as I am by the lights, you know, but I'm watching to see if people are following and and modifying what I'm saying to make sure that everybody's staying on the track. And then I have thousands of people, I have had thousands of people meet me in meet-and-greets after the talks and then on the street and I always listen to them. And so
Then, I can address that those concerns and then that keeps the situation Dynamic, right? And so, in the UK, in the house of parliament. There's this great Dome at the center of the building, and it's the lobby and that's where the word lobbyist comes from. By the way. And the you keep citizens of the UK have the right to enter the lobby and petition their their Member of Parliament, at any time, essentially. And so the lobby is where the voice of the people.
Apple meets the voice of their representatives and it's the Centre of the British House of Parliament, and it's built that way architectural e, which is so brilliant. It's stunningly. Brilliant. The way that that's laid out and that's exactly right because the people are somewhat inarticulate like the trucker's, like they're not making an argument in some sense. They're bringing their trucks to
Ottawa. Right? Showing not telling
yes exactly. And and and, and people who aren't primarily intellectual let's say,
You have to act out their moral presuppositions in a more concrete manner, but that doesn't mean they're wrong at all. It doesn't mean that at all. And so then the job of a leader is to note that inarticulate expression and to give it voice publicly in speeches. Let's say, but also to have that voice manifest itself in the body of laws that governs, all of us, that's how the system works. And so and the
of is to dismiss that and that's not a good alternative.
Or to demonize it, which is I want
to read this to you because it goes kind of Basil which are saying here's a Yahoo news story, Trudeau. Fleas as trucker convoys enters ottawa's, thousands of protesters enter our Canadian Prime Minister Justin Trudeau and his family were moved from their home to an undisclosed location somewhere in the city, on Saturday afternoon, due to security concerns of Freedom. Combo of some 2700, truckers entered. The Canadian Capital Votto Saturday to protest rhodos Trudeau's covid. Cured. Yeah, security concerns. This is a p.m. So
Covid-19 policies, according to the independent around. 100, big rigs. Blockade blockaded a Main Street running past the Canadian Parliament building. So that's going on. He just tested positive for covid. Now. It's coming into u.s. They froze, the GoFundMe account which raised over 10 million dollars and nearly 130, 140 thousand, people that donated and how American truckers are kind of getting involved and saying listen,
we're counting this book. Yeah, kick them off, yesterday,
kick them off. And that forty seven
thousand seven.
137 thousand subscribers to that group. They kicked them off. Yeah, you wait till you see your election this year. You're going to see plenty of that. That's for sure.
How bad you think? The consequences are going to be you like, do you really think, you know, some people, I talked to some people like we're professionals in my community. Like, what do you tell my truckers? I haven't seen anything on the nose. I'm like, you haven't seen anything other than seen anything on the news. You don't know what's going on with truckers know, I read Wall Street Journal. New York Times. I know nothing about what's going on in Canadian truckers. So they don't watch obviously Fox that maybe they don't watch.
Right, but it's almost the same thing with the John Hopkins. Yeah, same exact exactly. Like, why did you now? Here's the point? I would I. Yeah, so he said, he says, you really think these truckers are going to have any kind of an influence on anything. It's truckers. You think they're gonna have any infrastructure the way he said it, he said it was looking down on them because they can't express it with intellectual leader of the
Socialist Party in Canada. So, hypothetically on the side of the working class, the people who are most opposed to the trucker's in Canada are
Are the people who vote in DP the Socialists about 20% of the population stably in Canada and now and then we have a socialist provincial government and they've done some good, you know, when I don't want to get into that. But like I said, there are people in on that side of the equation who, for example, were fostered in the labor movement and they had dad things to say that working class needs to have their say, but the vast majority of people who vote NDP in Canada, are opposed to the trucker's. It's like I thought you guys were
On the side of the working class. It's like, what's happened? Well, not them. It's like, hey, man, welcome to the working class those truckers while they're all white supremacists and racist is like, really in Canada. Are they now? White supremacists, really, or Nazis in Canada? There aren't any of them. There was some dimwit, was waving a Confederate flag at the rally and that truckers he was masked. The trucker's stripped him of his mask and chased him away.
All the mainstream press reported Confederate flags at the trucker rally. As if that matters. It's like, it's not like there are a lot of Canadians by the way, flying the Confederate flag. First of all, that's not our country, exact, and
second. Most Canadians.
I would say, don't really know in any deep sense. What the Confederate
flag stands for. I mean, you know,
people aren't that informed and I'm not being condescending. They have other things to concern. This
is what it's comments. Like, what you just said that validate some people. How much of
Our old people like George Soros plays to get protesters out there that are actors and they're not real. And they're trying to instigate to say, dear do dis is how people are feeling, because, you know, the biggest mover and Shaker emotion is, what anger anger is the way you get people to say, you know, what, these guys are white supremacist. These guys are this. And so this validates how some people have that argument also validates, how Facebook does their algorithms? They want people arguing in the comments section because anger basically begets more comments anymore.
Yeah, basically more eyeballs and Moore's Jorgenson, like how many Canadians even know what the hell the Confederate flag even means,
right?
And there's one.
Like just 50,000 people who we don't even know how many people are inaudible. I've seen wildly different numbers. The idea that there was a hundred trucks. That's just completely insane. There's like ten times that number minimum. And so, that's another thing that. So appalling is you can't actually get accurate information. And then, yeah. Well, it's true. Do fleas issue. That's
Hide-and-go-seek checked out. I don't like that. It's not like I view that with any sense of satisfaction or
or Delight. Like I'm not a fan of Trudeau because I don't think he's capable of saying an honest word, and I truly mean that and I've watched his speeches over and over watching to see what's going on with him and all I see is acting and but I why despite that, why would I be happy? That the leader of my country ran away from a protest citing security concerns, which is a very bad move to begin with. It's like why I have to leave because you people are so desperate.
Jeurys is like it shows weakness. Well, no, it's it's worse than that. It's an instigation. It's an instigation it because he said that the reason he had to leave was because of security concerns, which means you people are dangerous and not to be trusted and I don't think the trucker's so far are dangerous and not to be trusted and I've been watching them handle this, they're playing this. It's been very peaceful for the number of people who are involved in the demonstration and that's despite the potential.
The effect of instigator types and that's a real threat. So even with that it's being peaceful and they're they've set up food camps to feed the Homeless and they're shoveling the snow in front of the war monument. And now they have a guard around the Terry Fox statue. Terry Fox was a man one-legged Canadian who ran across the country, raising money for cancer and he's a Canadian hero and his statue was desecrated in the, in the, in the language of the mainstream, press, they put a flag upside down Canadian flag on it and
Put some clothing on him which was desecration. Which, okay, have it your way in any case, the trucker's set up a guard around the statue. So that's not going to happen again. And they seem to be not taking the bait. And so I hope that that continues and that this proclivity to instigate, which would be extraordinarily convenient for mr. Trudeau. And which is an easy out for him. I'm praying that that doesn't happen.
Is there a reason why you wouldn't
show up to?
Something like this like to
support the trucker's or at least lend your voice.
No, the reason I'm not there is because I have other commitments, right? I'm on this tour and and people have bought tickets and there's thousands of them and that's what I'm doing. And, you know, I put out videos in support of them and in which I think in some sense is yeah. Well, the video I put out last week which was a message to the conservative premiers, essentially, and the conservative leader who lost his position last week, because there was a revolt,
Walt at the federal level. And so, our main opposition party transformed leadership last week in no small part. As a consequence of the trucker conv. I put out this video, calling on these conservative premiers to drop the damn mandates. And so, it's like I said, I mentioned earlier. It's got about a million and a half views. It's called seize the day and that's as if that's, as effective or more effective than me being there. So, as far as I can tell, and besides it's the best I can do Under the current.
Circumstances given everything. Yeah, so,
you know, it's crazy. While this is happening. I was listening to Charlemagne. Got Ian, Charlemagne God. I don't know if you know who he is. He Breakfast Club. He's time, raid got it. Pop guy, big hip-hop world very, very well-known. He's an at this point. You know, I think he's necessary. It's not about a fan. I think he's necessary. Anybody that's pushing the envelope and you're fair. And you push your own side salute, hats off to you live. Respect that guy. He said something the other day.
Podcast, which pissed a lot of people off. He says, you know what? At this point I miss Trump. We said, let's get that, you know, back here because at least, you know, he would say some shit and he meant it. And you're like, you could say I disagree with this guy. He's crazy and he's not a fan of trump know. He's now. 20 fastest runner. Yeah, Kamala Harris. He's a supporter of Kamala. Has a surprise. So Kamala Harris. She hadn't? Yeah. And it's not a fan of. Yes. The question said, who's run, this country, is the President Joe manchin or the President Joe Biden. Who is really about. But anyway,
Yeah. To calmly. Send them, you know camera acting like she got pissed off but so Trump. Hey, maybe we need this guy back. Right? Maybe we need some. I like that to come and he saw Shack the other day. Can you pull up Shaq what he said? I don't know if I want to play the video to be honest with you. If you can find what he says and maybe do this maybe do this, press unmute on the video. You see that button on the audio bring it all the way down, but they're going to pick up the algorithm. So go and say Shack vaccine Force. Just Google Shack vaccine Force. I don't know if you saw this or not Joe.
Did you see this? This was just yesterday. Did you see this or? No, Adam? Did you read the have-nots? Okay. I know he did say something. So, so watch this go Shaq. Rips covid Maxum man. Did you shouldn't be forced to make something? You don't take something, you know, now, go all the way down. So I want to read to exactly how he said it because if they have the whole back-and-forth called little, or called little Oracle little, or I wish I could show it to you. So. So the ladies like well, no, they're not really forcing us to take anything sighs. No. No, they are. No, they're not. No one's forcing. This is, what are you talking about?
If you don't take you, do you have a job? She says, no, you don't have a job, but they're not forcing me to take you to if that's forcing you, that's forcing you. So what is start to happen? Is some people, Charlemagne is like listen, maybe this guy that we hated on as much as we hate it on. Maybe he took positions. Maybe he came out there and talk to us. Maybe at least we had, you know, something to say took a position on what we had to do rather than hey, what are we doing today? Hey, you know, how do we handle the situation here? Do you think there's certain people right now?
Because we're in Florida. So in Florida, it's the sentence and Trump. It's a very Compares. A lot of people that want the scientists, and they're a lot of people that don't want the sentence to run for office because they liked him as a governor. They're worried who would replace them, but they're still, you know, let's go Brandon Flags outside of a, you know, all these boats that you see everyone's got some kind of a let's go Brandon flag, which I'd like to get your feedback on how you feel about brand and if you like this brand the guy or not, but Trump,
Your thoughts next election coming in u.s. With everything that's
going on. You think there's a lightweight watched what happened? Yeah. In the United States with Trump and Clinton. I thought people liked it. They like the unscripted, impulsive lies of trump better than the scripted. Instrumental lies of Clinton.
What do you show her that? Well Trump trump gave a different speech. Generally when he went from audience to audience. He kind of shoots from the hip kind of a lot. And it isn't obvious to me that shooting from the hip is really the right way to lead a country, but calculating everything beforehand for Maximum Impact on your political future. That is not also not a way to run a country and that's how you get pulled into.
Politics by Handler, by PR, by, by opinion, poll by image, we have, you know, you see politicians. We have to protect our image.
It's like really do you. You have to protect your image to you? What's your image? Exactly? Well, it's what we want people to think, we are. Well, how about you be that instead of being the image of that? And this, you see this dialog take home people. Don't even notice it. It's like we have to protect our image. It's like Rogan doesn't protect his image. He doesn't have an image. He's actually there, which is why people are listening to him or or come up with some other excuse. He's a gateway to the alt-right. It's like really this left.
Leaning person with high degree of sympathy for socialist, views on the working class site, whose psychedelic experimenter hippie. Countercultural person is a gateway to the alt-right. Really? That's your story. Yeah, of all the stupid stories. It's so, it's so ridiculous. You the only way you could possibly believe that is if you knew nothing about it, because that's just not who he is at all. It's Preposterous, but the only other
Explanation. Is that people are listening to them because they trust him because he's trustworthy. Well, God could that possibly be and all the media forces of their raid against him aren't trustworthy. It's like, well, a lot of that as we already talked about. That's consequence of Rapid technological Trends. How much of
that is based on the conversations. He has regarding the vax, because prior to covid or even vaccine mandates, nobody thought that he was center right?
Nobody. Oh, yeah. Yeah, he was getting that right because he was, but he was Oracle. Yeah, he was
Hypothetically, you know, a founding father of the intellectual dark web and that was going back. Five years ago. And everybody review the, you know viewed, everybody who had a mainstream view. Let's say viewed, all the people who are in the intellectual, dark web for lack of a better term as gateway to the alt-right, you know, Brett Weinstein and his and his wife. Heather, you know, those terrible right-wingers. It's so Preposterous and, and, and
Sam Harris as well. Another, you know, hyper conservative person. So it's just not that at all. Not at all. These people
actually tuning in and listening or they just making
assumptions. Oh, no, they don't listen know, people who criticize. Well what happens often and this is why Rogan keeps growing and popular and have them with me to some degree. Is that people come because they are curious and then they do listen and then they think oh this is nothing like what I've been told. It's in fact the intent and I think this was particularly true.
In my case in relationship to accusations of say far, right sympathies. It's like well, what about all the lectures I gave on Nazism for like 30 years, two of the biggest educational institutions in the world. What about those and then what about this? What about the fact that I had a now have like 300 hours of things. I've said online and you haven't been able to find one phrase even taken out of context. That was enough.
To damn me in any serious sense. Not one. So now you can take some of the things I've said, maybe about gender differences, in personality and clip them and then put them in a the most like abysmal interpretive context possible and warp that seriously and kind of make an argument that I'm a misogynist. But even that's incredibly ineffective, first of all, because I'm not the fact that I think there are differences between men and women and that I actually
eight, the differences makes me the opposite of a misogynist because if you're a misogynist and you don't like femininity, then you deny that it exists and it does exist. And so on all the data support that men and women are broadly more similar than they are different in terms of their personality structure. There's no doubt about that, but the differences aren't trivial. They have major influence on occupational choice, for example, and the data on. That's absolutely clear from from
From and it's all been generated by left-leaning psychologist because the entire psychological research Community, the academic community in general is left-leaning. So all this data is showing that there are differences between men and women at a personality level has been generated by people who are antithetical to that idea politically. So, yeah. Well,
did you used to get in arguments with your colleagues meaning? I think 90-plus percent of professors are left-leaning.
The number pad, I want to say 90s 12:47 according to watch, add some more than 90%. So meaning, if you're in a room and there's 13, professors and your more to the right conservative and you're in, you're in the break room, having a coffee, having a having a cake or whatever. Are you arguing with your colleagues? How did that work?
I didn't argue with my colleagues much
now. They did. I want to argue with you. Okay.
Faculty people were irritated at me from time to time because I worked with the business school and you know how reprehensible they are. And so that was annoying because I my attitude
to to that was you think all the sins on the side of the business school. It's like, what the hell is wrong with you? That's your Viewpoint. You think you're sophisticated. And so, but I didn't argue about that because it just was pointless. I didn't I, I argued very seldomly with my colleagues and I spent most of my, I had lots of colleagues who are friends of mine, although at the University of Toronto. They tended to be people who eventually went elsewhere and that was more a matter of happenstance than anything else, but I have
Only two were close friends of mine at Harvard and we got along just fine and they weren't I wouldn't say they were also that they were particularly left-leaning. But I would also say I'm not particularly right-leaning, you know, the fact that I was branded conservative or right-wing for that matter, really came as quite a shock to me because temperamentally. I'm kind of halfway between liberal and conservative because I'm very conscientious. But I'm also very high in this trade openness, which is a creativity to mention and so the openness tilts me.
More in the liberal Direction and The conscientiousness tilts me more to conservative Direction. So I kind of so, I suppose, in some ways, the easiest political slot for me, is something like libertarian, but insofar, as I would put myself in the political slot, but I never thought of myself as a conservative. So, apparently, well, I'm conservative in some ways now partly from being a social scientist. As I said, I'm a firm believer in the law of unintended consequences. I also believe the conservative dictate that the best level of
government is the
Level most proximal to the problem. And that's a really good principal even for running an organization. Right? Is you want to
Devolve power distributed as much as possible. Facilitate local autonomy. And you want the decision-makers to be as close to the people that the decisions are affecting as possible. And that's actually why I thought brexit was a good idea. Now. It's like to Tower of Babel the European Union. It's like know that Representatives got too far away from the people very, very dangerous. And so I think the UK made a good choice is like no, we're not, especially the UK. It's like Center of free speech in the world.
All Things Considered historically considered, you know, Americans and Canadians differ on this to some degree. But in Canada, we kind of view the American Revolution as Englishmen standing up for their
rights as Englishmen standing up for the
right. Well the UK had a very well-developed tradition of
Belief in intrinsic human rights long before the American Revolution. I'm not saying the American Revolution was trivial because it wasn't trivial, but it's a extension and elaboration of a set of principles that were there long before the American revolution occurred. And so,
as a Canadian, do you think America is the greatest country in the
world?
It's it's probably yeah, probably. I mean I was every time I go to the UK, I'm or Europe in general for that matter. I'm stunningly impressed. The UK is an amazing place and it's institutions are so remarkable Oxford and Cambridge there. So, I mean, I was at Harvard for a long time, the depth of history, there the the weight of that tradition, the commitment of people to free speech.
Each the UK is an amazing country.
The United States has the advantages of the UK, and then it's much bigger. Have a huge population. It's incredibly diverse. Your political institutions also allow for a diverse range of experiments at the state level. That really seems to be working out well, much better than in Canada. For example, the United States has this amazing theatricality. That's such a potent Force. It's so obvious when you come here from Canada because everything in the United States is like a movie set. I was out.
This Gala week ago, DeSantis. Spoke out it to Common Sense. Society, was that European organization set up to Foster free speech? And they had an ex-military guy, black guy singing the National Anthem before the formal dinner started and he just belted it out, you know, with this kind of gospel undertone and this whole culture, your whole culture is saturated by this unbelievably powerful pop culture that just has it.
Its tentacles out everywhere in the world. And so he belted out the national anthem, make a cappella in a way. You'd never hear a Canadian belt out will Canada. And then they had another guy who was also black, as it turned out, get up and do the prayer before dinner. And he, you could just see him channeling that kind of gospel evangelism. That's a big part of Southern us culture. And so that was amazingly theatrical
and you want to attempt to re-enact that? No, no. No, I can't I couldn't do it justice and then they, you know, they
showed this video about Freedom that was
All theatrical and and the Americans you Americans are unbeliever. You're unbelievably good at that. It's it and it shows a culture that has this immense belief in its dream and that manifests itself in specially in pop culture. It just manifest itself everywhere in pop culture, and American pop culture. Clearly dominates, the world. And so, and part of it, is that, that dream of a better future, that's accessible to all that is given Voice through all of that.
Pop culture mean, including the automobile for that matter because that's an expression of pop culture and it's certainly not obvious to me at all, that it wasn't the automobile that doomed, the Communists because nothing says freedom and individual sovereignty. Like a 16 year old with a 400-horsepower Mustang, you know, and I know perfectly. Well if the automobile was invented today, the no ordinary person would be able to have one because they be too dangerous. You have take a ten year course and then, you know, we'll get them back a million dollars, a
For insurance and be
encased in styrofoam, and the car that's a bloody Miracle. It's like, well, why don't we let people go wherever they want in these unbelievably dangerous Contraptions. What was this point? There's almost nothing more dangerous than driving. Right? And you let kids do it. It's like 16. Yeah, you can drive, why not. It's like, well, cause you run
panting, can't drink, you can't have a beer,
but you well, but but it's so wonderful and you have all this autonomy in a vehicle. It just yells out, individual liberty. So then you export those
Two communist countries. It's like you think you're exporting cars. This, you don't think there's a political message embedded in the existence of an automobile. So you haven't thought about it.
It was crazy or saying that because yesterday, we had a guest, your Mike who said he asked about a car that I own he says, hey, you know, as a true about this car and I said, if you want to go drive it and allegedly yesterday, he drove it. Allegedly, keyboards of cops are listening to this. Allegedly. He went 170 yesterday. What's the car freeway? It's an SF 90s. The fastest street car Ferrari. It's got
Horsepower. He was shocked when you're like, yeah. Yeah, here's the keys like why I could help you
matched it against a
Tesla. Well, 0 to 60 Tesla would destroy. Yeah, but to like 210 miles an hour, you're just, it's just going to destroy, dude. Ferraris going to join. Would you like to drive the car after the show? No, I mean, do you know what? The first time he came to Dallas? I think I took you, you did. I drove you to your hotel and you what to meet your wife, right? Because you guys would always travel together. Very good conversation. You have. What color was that? That was a, what did I drove you? In a Bentley? Oh, that was a blue Rolls-Royce converter.
Follow the rules. It was we're at a red light Guide to the car. Next to us just like this Charter. He went crazy. What kind of car do you drive right now?
Sadie's. SL
550. Hey, you got some any car you want. Why do you pick that? What's a pretty legit car? But yeah, it's a nice car.
Well, I bought it five years ago. My brother-in-law had one which are used to drive in California. I really liked it. I really liked the way it felt. It's got great acceleration. It's cool, too. And so I bought one second hand.
And it's like eight years old this thing or nine years old, but it's in great shape and I like it. It's two-seater resume around with my wife in it and it has a really good sound system. And so we put in whatever we're listening to you.
So what are you pumping when you're driving? What's your music? I don't see him as
I like classic rock. I have about an 8 Hour playlist of old Jazz and Blues standards crooners. That's more for the. On the romance side of things. I have a really good playlist of Old Country and blues music.
It's about seven hours long, which I really love or white. My wife and I listened to that a lost ark ranked right up. Do you have particular family? I really like, I think I was gonna
ask you. Is there a particular names that you listen to more than anyone Neil? Young is Neil Young.
Neil Young? Yeah, but but and so he's in my classic rock collection or was because it's on Spotify is so Harvest Moon that's on Spotify. And so, you know, we were in Neil Young fans. I
His music and I still like his music and artists if they had any sense would stay out of that political debate because they're artists and that's way better creative Barbra Streisand
came on and said that yesterday that she's gone off of a spotify's. What Jon Stewart said about John stirs. Look, first of all, we need to keep rolling on there and I think John was on Rogan about a year ago a year and a half ago when he was on but he said he was a bigger surprise. When I heard look, I listen to Neil Young. I think his musics great. I've listened to my entire life, but what I didn't think Spotify was going to lose four billion.
Ian dollars because of Neil Young, it said we he was kind of shocked by it. But let me ask a couple stories one. Do you follow anything with China? Are you somebody? That's okay. So, so Sorrows, which we know the name Sorrows. Here's what sorrow said recently, and I'm curious to get your take on this Soros is a guy that's worth. I don't know, 20 billion our guy. He's a guy that is hated by the right? And a lot of people on the right think he is, manipulative, deceptive, and he wants to inject his philosophies politically to this country. But here's what he said. He says,
So Bloomberg article Soros is China's real estate crisis Omicron threatened. She rule billionaire philanthropist, George Soros, and China's zhi Jing. Ping may fail to extend his rule of the country later. This young contrast to what most observers, expect Source energy enemies within the party. Real estate crisis in effective vaccines and a failing birth rate as factors working against him. Internal divisions and China are so sharp that it has found expression in various party Publications, or
Errol said, g is under attack from those who are inspired by Deng xiaoping's ideas and want to see a greater role for private Enterprise. What do you think is going to happen with G and China?
Well, my sense of it and I'm definitely no expert is that it's not easy for the Chinese to maintain internal unity. And so they tend to focus on that and perhaps that's partly why China hasn't been as expansionist a
As it might have been, maybe that's changed to some degree in recent years, but it's a very large country. It has an incredibly diverse population. And so they have their own problems. Their own internal problems, which are significant, and, and preoccupying. And so, I hope that they stay focused on their internal problems and that they stay focused on solving the, my China.
Has been forward-looking enough. Thank God, to allow the free market Enterprise to flourish. Despite the proclivity for implementing top-down radical left State Solutions. And the consequence of that is being first of all. Now, China is a player in the international scene for better or worse. I think, mostly for better. I know that a lot of that was
Accomplished on the backs of the American working class and that's catastrophic in many ways. But the fact that there aren't tens of millions of Chinese people starving, that's really good thing for International Security and stability and that's of no trivial benefit to the American working class as well. And the fact is that China makes a lot of cheap stuff that works mostly. And that people who are more stressed, economically have also been
Added to that to a tremendous degree. So it seems that all of that has been good. The twist towards a more totalitarian mode of governance in the last 10 years. That's obviously extremely worrisome. The fact that China is a totalitarian state has had a very negative consequence on us, in the west, especially in the immediate.
What would you call it in the immediate emergence of the of the pandemic? Because what we did was, we rush to imitate a totalitarian state. We thought Chinese lockdown, we better do it. It's like, really, really, we better do what the CCP did. Well, that's what we did, and we'll see, we don't know what the consequence of that is yet. We'll see not good, not good. In my estimation and certainly, the Johns. Hopkins studies study.
Seems to.
It's only a partial study, in some sense. They've done the cost-benefit analysis, cost so far. We have no idea what the costs are of having kids in masks for two years. We have no idea what the consequences are what that's done, especially to introverted kids who are high negative emotion because they're going to be looking for a reason to hide anyways. And who knows what that's done to their psychological development. Both as children and adolescents will find out over time, but we haven't paid the price for the pandemic lockdowns. Even a
B yet. Did we destroy our economy like these things? Take a long time?
You know, they say if you're piling in oil tanker and you detect an iceberg in your path, you can see it. You've already had it because it takes so long for you to turn that it's too late. Well in some sense these huge systems that were a part of her like that is that you can't tell when they're broken because they take a long time to fall over and I don't know if our system is broken, but
We're going to find out and I don't know if the pandemic lockdowns broke it and maybe they didn't and hopefully they didn't. I mean, I was in New York City in Manhattan month ago and it was the first time I'd really gone out anywhere other than Toronto. And I'd been to New York, a few years before and it's a bouncing Place Manhattan. I love New York. It's such an amazing City, you know, the fact that Manhattan can even exist. It's just an ongoing, absolute miracle.
Million people compressed on to that island. And it's, it's pretty damn clean and it's pretty safe. And it's really cool and there's something to do all the time and you can walk around free and like that Bloody place is a miracle. That's for sure. And it looked pretty good. I thought isn't this something these people have been locked down for like 18 months and this place isn't on fire. It actually is pretty clean. And most of the businesses are still open and isn't that a bloody miracle? And which it most definitely
Italy is. And so let's pray and not be too resentful. About all the foolishness. Let's pray that
We wake up and we treat the pandemic like the flu and we get back to something resembling the normality of Florida and we put this behind us and we don't get too upset about January 6th, and we don't get to vengeful about the Democrats and the radical left. And we looked at some 1/2 sensible to run the Republicans and we carefully weave our way through to a peaceful future. We, let's pray for that because the alternative
Pretty damn dismal and I don't think we have to have the alternative. You know, one of the we talked about Trump earlier. Here's my dilemma with Trump, one of many. He's beating the election was stolen drum pretty damn hard and I look at that as an outsider again because I'm Canadian and I think well, you Americans you've been split 50/50 for like five decades like right down the middle and there's always election.
Trouble. Because now the system is 100% perfect. Maybe there's like a 1% 2% margin of crookedness, something like that and you're probably really not going to get rid of that. Maybe you can maneuver carefully to keep it so that it's never any more than one or two percent. But to get rid of that last bit of malfeasance and deception. And Corruption would take such a heavy hand that that would become worse than the problem. And that's a real problem when you
50/50 because small election, irregularities can throw the whole election? Okay, so it isn't obvious precisely what can be done about that. But the election was stolen narrative. I think it's week for a variety of reasons. The first is
It's pretty whiny.
Like, why didn't you win with five percent margin then?
So how do you know, this isn't your fault and you think the Republicans aren't gerrymandering congressional districts because they are and so it's not obvious that even if it is the case that there is a substantive election fraud that it's all from one side. And so there's that and then you're sure that's the message. You want to be sending people, that they shouldn't have faith in their most fundamental institution. You might be right, but but it's in your interest for
To be true. And so that's a moral hazard and then,
Well, what happens when you retake the house? Because that's what's going to happen. I think the Democrats going to get stomped in the, in the upcoming election. Are those election somehow valid, but yours wasn't? And so, why magically when the Republicans get elected, that's honest, but when they don't, it's not and so, it doesn't that take the wind out of your story. It's like, well, it was stolen. Well, you have the house and the Senate.
How do you account for that? So that to me that that's going to weaken that narrative. Trump is capitalizing on anger. He's using the election issue as a means to an end and he may believe it, but doesn't matter because it's a weak story, especially when the Democrats lose the house. It's a weak story. So it's not going to. It doesn't have any momentum, but then it's worse than that because I also think and I've talked to lots of Republicans about this.
Is that the best story you've got?
You got tradition on your side. You got the truth, as an adventure on your side. You got belief in truth on your side. That's been abandoned by the radical left. You've got belief in science on your side. I've got responsibilities on your side. You've got the fundamental purpose of higher education on your side.
You can't conjure up a better story for Americans than the election was stolen. When with all that on your side. That's just not very impressive and I have sympathy for politicians in general and the United States. Congress. People have very hard jobs. It's not a job. I would like I don't think it's a pleasant job. They spent a lot of their time fundraising 25 hours a week on the phone out of their Congressional offices because otherwise they're not supported by the party leadership.
40% of them sleep in their offices when they go to Washington, they don't even have Apartments. Those that do usually have little bitty Apartments, their families aren't there because it's hard to get families to move to Washington. Now, with dual career families. They don't have much of a social group. They have to run further job every two years.
This is not a plus they're under attack all the time and they're micromanaged in micro scheduled. So bunk here is what point are you
trying to make? Are you trying to make up on with Trump saying the fact that, you know, election was stolen because that's exactly what Hillary Clinton's position was 44 years. That elections was stolen
from her Rider know better when she does
it. Oh, no, I'm not even what I'm trying to say is I looked at it as a weak position that is a weak position. It is a weak position. She was taken, I think okay, but that's the worst of it is like really. Where are you going with this? Are you going with?
That story, tell a better story if you want to get reelected as I know.
No, no, no, no. No the way to re-election is through a better story, but that's not the reason to tell it the reason to tell it is because you believe it and the for the first time in my life, really, I believe this to be the case. Conservatives really have something to sell to young people.
And they have the they can sell the meaning of responsibility because young people are bereft of meaning and most people find meaning in responsibility. And, and when the right talks about responsibility, they kind of do it in that finger-wagging way that makes conservatives unpopular. Among young people. You should be responsible. It's like yeah, you should why? Well, because your life is chaotic and meaningless and you're stuck in this Juvenile surreality and
It's really painful for you and you're anxious and nameless and goalless. And then you look at people who have a life because maybe you could have a life and you think, well, what does that life consists of it's like, well, you have a committed intimate relationship. There's one you have friends that you're honest with and and playful with. So we have a group of friends. You have a job or a career, you know, you you learn how to use your life, your time outside of work in a productive engaging way, you regulate your susceptibility to the multitude of hedonistic.
Temptations that are in front of you, you pay some attention to your mental and physical health. You make a goal, some goals for the future that are concrete. Well, there are seven things you can do there all responsible things. Why? Because then your life will have some meaning now, you might say, well, what's the ultimate meaning? It's like get those things straight first. They're not nothing, and maybe you won't be, so damn, miserable, and bitter, and resentful, and angry, and aimless, and anxious, and frustrated, and disappointed and ashamed. If you had
Five of those seven things going well, and the conservatives can make that case. No bloody left isn't making that case. It's like for them responsibility is pretty much equivalent to totalitarian patriarchal, oppression. The conservatives could just take that say, no, no, our institutions. They're pretty solid. Maybe if you don't like what's happening on the political front, you join a group, a church, the Elks, the rotary some Civic organization, get in there and do your part. Why not? Cause you
Even though you should but because well, why not meet some people who are like-minded and have a social group and
you think Biden can can have the kind of impact to push people away from the political party to the opposing side, similar to how Goldwater and what they did back in the days on how Civil Rights was handled, when Barry Goldwater did what he did. And next thing, you know, African-Americans went from only 60% of them voting Democrat to. Now,
92%, four years later, they went from 60% to 92% four years later. Next election. Republicans. Haven't had a chance on the African-American vote since 1964. Do you think the current climate is that big of a climate, where the conversion from one side to the other side to say? Listen? I don't agree with you guys on censoring. The guys want to talk, leave them alone. The way you handle covid by shutting everybody down. I don't agree with that constantly printing money. I don't agree with that. Do you think it could be something worth could flip that that big
I don't know because 20 the next presidential election in this climate is a long way away because a male who can predict the future even a year out, especially given the rate of technological change that we face. Now, I mean, you don't even know what's happening today. There's so many technological Transformations. Just today many of which have World shaping consequences. God only knows where we're going to be by the time of the next presidential election, but it certainly does seem to be the case that the Democrats are going to lose big.
In the fall. And so, you know, that's that's what we'll focus on. For the time
being. We'll see what happened there. We'll see what happened. Couple other topics before we wrap up. Your so remote work. So conversation. Everybody's having I'm going to read the Vox story on remote work and we'll talk a couple other stories here and we'll wrap up. So box comes out with this article. Remote work isn't the problem work is, okay, executives are nearly three times more likely than non-executives to say they want to return.
To office full-time. According to slack survey, the report found that, while nearly 80% of knowledge workers, want flexibility in, where they work. Their employer thinks that the arrangement will lead to a variety of eels. Diminishing the company's collaboration, creativity and culture, as people have quit their jobs or stepped out of Workforce in, What's called the Great resignation. You've heard that before the great reshuffling. Those Left Behind have had to pick up the slack two-thirds of workers. Said, their workloads has increased.
Significantly since they started working remotely, as if increased work related work weren't enough, pandemic related obstructions, the lack of childcare smaller social support system, has caused many people to have work outside of paid work. So this whole concept of the great resignation and what's happening, you know, some people are sinners less and you guys got to come back to work. I'm in the financial industry. I can't tell you. How many people are having a hard time getting their people back. Like the biggest thing, CEOs will tell me his
We screwed up, we screwed up staking a position of it's okay. You can work from home because now they are only looking for jobs that allow them to work from home. And other companies are willing to take that position, even though it doesn't work. So we're in a were cornered right now and we don't think long-term. This is an effective way of running a company. What are your thoughts with the great resignation?
Well, one of the things I learned when I was in Washington, we were trying to understand. I went there with a in collaboration with a group that runs the American Presidential Prayer Breakfast and so there.
Christian's self-admittedly. Let's say who have been operating in Washington since the Eisenhower Administration and most of what they do is bring people together congressmen and Senators within parties to have some social time, a meal some chance to talk or across party lines and they're trying to provide the kind of hospitality that produces social relationship.
And we talked a lot about this because one of the things that's happening in Washington that is fostering polarization is the breakdown of the social community. So it's hard to get people to move to Washington often because their spouses have jobs and so they're localized in their Community hard to move the kids. And so, as I said, 40% of Congressman, I believe it is sleep in their offices and then you can do a lot of remote meetings.
And, and then, you can fly in and fly out. And do you think? So, what? Oh, and then, there's cameras recording your speeches in the house. That means you're always acting instead of saying what you think. And so there's this Confluence of technological transformation that's devastating. The under culture of Washington because what used to happen more was that while people would go to each other soccer games with their kids, you know, their kids soccer games are baseball games and they get to know each other a bit.
If I disagree with you, then it's easy for me to think you're bad because I think that what I think is right because I wouldn't take it if I didn't think it was right. If I'm a good faith player and you might not be bad. You might just be different but I need to get to know you. Well, what does that mean? It means that I need to step out with you in the actual world and do something in the actual world. That shows how much we actually have in common.
And a lot of that social like I had it lunch. I set up five years ago. Four years ago. We invited think eight, Republican congressman and eight Democrats and they were all Juniors. And
They didn't know most of the people within their own party organization much less people across the aisle and they're not exactly rewarded for talking across the aisle either especially when the leadership has a top-down vision of what constitutes leadership. And so instead of having them talk about anything political. We just had them talk about why are you in Washington, you know, most of these people these snake pit dwellers, you know in the cynical parlance, they had perfectly functional lives before they went into
Anguirus they gave up a lot to seek political office. You think well, they're power-hungry. It's like they were doing. All right, so isn't it obvious that this was a step up for them? And so all of them I said take three minutes and just say why you were here and it was the same speech every single one of them gave the same speech and it wasn't nonsense and it was deeply cinematic in that American sense, you know, they talked about their love for their country and their patriotism and the fact that they felt that they had to give back and every single person. No, they
Personalized that they talked a little bit about their own story and how they came to that realization, but there's no way you could tell the Democrats from the Republicans, not on the basis of that. And I tell you, if you were there you would have walked out thinking, that's a pretty decent group of people and they're really trying hard that that I swear. That's certainly, I was there with people. One person in particular who is much more tilted to the Democrat side and that was his take on the whole room. And so, how old were these people? Oh, Andy.
A
junior 35 to 45 basically. And and so my point is the problem with the with the distance work is that
it's predicated on the idea that everything we do that's important is done in the abstract right in the domain of information. Exchanged explicit information exchange, and that's just not true. So that's a danger because we don't know what that will do to Cooperative organizations. Now, it might be a good thing. It might be a bad thing. I often meet with my son on Zoom, when we're doing business related.
When we have a business related matter because it's actually easier to share our computer screens and do what we're doing, then it is to meet in person. But that doesn't mean I don't want to meet him in person. I want to meet him in person for sure. So there's that that that's a beware of what your technology is doing because it's doing all sorts of things that you do not understand at all. Like it could be that the decimation of the underlying social community in Washington is enough to drive.
Polarization to the point where the whole system will rock. And crumble we have no idea because we don't know why it worked. It worked. You know, I've been thinking about online universities. Well, that's easy. Lectures and tests. That's what universities do. It's like. No, that might be, maybe that's 5% of what universities do 5%. Yeah, I would say. So here, having low. Well, here's a bunch of things universities do
They confer an identity upon you.
Who are you? I'm a student. Okay, respectable. So for a hundred and twenty thousand dollars, let's say it's more than that. Sometimes. Less than that. You now have an identity for four years, that your culture respects. And that means you have a container within, which you can have intellectual Freedom, while you're deciding, what you want to do, with the rest of your life, instead of torturing yourself about how useless you are, because you don't have a productive job yet. So, that's a big deal. God only knows what that's worth, but not nothing. Well, how
Finding a mate. So there's evidence now. Coming out. I don't know how reliable it is. You know, that it's about two women for every man in many academic institutions now and that proclivity towards female dominance seems to be increasing. However, it appears that once the man dropped to one third of the population of women. Stop going. Well, you think why is that? Well, why the hell do you think it is? You
Go out of your little town, you know, you want to find a new peer group and you're young. It's one of the things you want to do is find a mate. So part of the reason you go to a good University is because this sorting has already taken place. It's like, well, you know what, this person has got a high school diploma and their, their clued in enough to pursue a college education system. Yeah. So that's a huge deal and then universities also act as a filtering system for businesses because they use the SAT as a entrance requirement. So if you hire someone as a graduate,
High-end University. You knew that they had a high IQ because the SAT is an IQ test, God only knows what that's worth. And then you shared your peer group, your old peer group and he establish a new one. Maybe when you're a bit wiser. And that's a, I mean, one of the major elements of my college, education was the transformation of my peer group, that was huge. And then there's personal relationships between you and the professor's. If you're lucky enough to establish.
Them. That's a big deal because then you get to interact with someone who's an embodiment of the academic tradition and see how they act. That's different than listening to what they say in a lecture and then there's the social surround the joint meals. This is they make a big deal of this at Cambridge and Oxford because the students eat together in their colleges and God only knows how important that is. And then there's the part of being an embodied actor in that academic, tradition, and learning to speak and write. And
That's just a handful of things universities do. And that's not lectures and tests online, and to reduce it to that might destroy it, completely could easily be and it's the same with our political institutions. They depend on these real world.
Sub structures that likes like engagement in Civic Society. We have no idea how important that is. And the fact that that's starting to deteriorate in Washington could be
fatal, you know, you know what, I would be curious about, you know, how it America. The one school University that was popping 20 years ago and everybody say I can get my MBA online. It was what Phoenix University of Phoenix University, right? And I recruited a few of their sales guys and they're legit sales guys because they say, they're selling is what they're selling.
Um, I saw their sales training was great. But what are the things that be curious about is how much do they get from boosters like, kids graduate from Phoenix University and they got their degree online. Like I wonder, oh my gosh. I'm so loyal to the school. I got to give these guys, ten Grand, you know, I want to contribute because this University changed my life. Did it though. Like is there, you're on some what I'm saying? Like the because for saying there's no culture. I don't think game. How do you do that? Like, you know, you want me to go to church on Sundays on his umm, yeah. Okay, great.
And finally, I'll do it. I'll listen to service. I mean they do every Church does it nowadays and they'll say our service today was viewed by 73 countries because YouTube said, 73 Covey, we 73 countries, right? But am I sold, you know, am I really emotional? I don't know. I wonder. Why don't you also validate your point about the 5% lecture? And you
know, why you also don't know what people were doing when they went to church and people were cynical about that. People who fell out of the church. They say well, you know there one hour a week Christians. It's like
Oh better an hour of contemplation of higher-order moral virtue than zero. So zero is not much and you think well the church didn't do that good a job. It's like, okay, do better see if you can do better. And so but then also what are you doing? When you go to church? Well, you're singing, that's not nothing with other people. That's not nothing. You're trying to orient yourself, ethically with your community, your
Icing a part of your weekend to indicate your willingness to do. So, like you're you're in a drama, right? You're acting out something and it's not, it's not merely fictional. It's like we get up in the morning and you you saw this in The Simpsons all the time with Marge Simpson. Trying to get her family to go to church which they did. So I get up, put on a suit, dress up, go out there with members of your community and show your allegiance to something higher and the atheists are cynical about that sort of thing, you know, because they reduce
God to a set of propositions, but they don't have any real appreciation for the embodiment. It's like I was in these beautiful chapels in Cambridge and Oxford, my God, they're so beautiful. It's just beyond comprehension there. So stunningly. Magnificent and the boys choirs were singing. When they have excellent boys, choirs, they're like world-class. And then they read these ancient words and those things ring true. And there was a bunch of idiot logical nonsense. At one of the Chapel's I went to and that was off-putting but
You have to be there and doing that for that to work, right? It's not replaceable in any real sense by a virtual experience because it's not just information content or it's not abstract information content. It's the acting out of something. That's what happens. When you join the Civic Club, you know, it's a mark of, it's a mark of willingness to participate. It's a Mark of Faith in the system. And you think, well, I'm cynical about the damn system. It's like good for you. You're not naive, you know. Thumbs up for you.
Since you're going to top out in your wisdom at cynicism, that's pretty dismal, man. You can do better than that. Like cynicism. That's, that's beginners
Place. How often do you go to church?
That's good question. I don't attend church. And so, you might think that makes me a hypocrite and possibly, it does.
I would say, I participate avidly in Civic Enterprises. However, you know, and for me.
This the lectures that's a church for me.
You know, I'm trying to make things better and I think I'm participating with people my audience members, my viewers and listeners. They're committed to making things better and they're committed to. I hope at least in some sense. They're committed to the truth. And so
It's always been awkward for me to go to church because for a variety of reasons and some of that might just be the unwillingness to do it, but I find myself on comfortable in them often because I always got the impression that the people who are reading the words, didn't believe them.
That you do Factor.
Yes.
Yeah, and so that's not necessarily any reason to be cynical. But then again, I'm not cynical about religious matters. So quite the contrary. So,
I had a guy out of guy. Marvin bill by, you know, Marvin doable course, so you're his hero. Okay. You, he brought you up at the event in front of 6,000 people? Okay. He says, Patrick I'm begging you. If you can ask this question, he's a Catholic and he's a very, very well-read Catholic.
Okay, and when I he's from Honduras, he's done well for himself in business. And when I read this question for you, you're going to realize how technical have a question. He's asking you. Okay, and I'm curious to know what take, you know, what your take is going to be on this. It has to do with a comment you made about the Catholic church, right? Let me read this to you. See. If I have it. Here we go. Okay, it's long-winded. So just move brace for impact. So, in his video,
Who dares to say he believes in God, he criticized the Catholic Church very harshly is not the first that he had done and he basically compare the Catholic Church to the Protestant approach to Salvation. Number one. Number two. He then had the opportunity to interview Bishop Baron as part of his podcast name, Christianity and the model modern world and most of us expect him to ask some really tough questions about the issue. He criticized, but he never had never happened. He almost looked overwhelmed by the moment and the
Shouldn't he almost looked like a man that wanted to confess? Okay, first question. He's got three of them here for you. Number one. Why did he avoid? The tough questions? Bishop Baron was the best person. The most qualified person to clear. What I believe is a mistake in perspective about the Catholic Church. Number two. He was also just coming back from difficult Health situation. He experienced in 2019, did that influences approach to the conversation? You called me the day of my birthday September 28. I call them. Let me know that he was really not doing well, you when, you know, you
We knew kind of what you were going through. I was very emotional and was praying for him. Ever since you have to realize this guy's a True Believer of you. Number three. My final question is about the Catholic Church to which Catholic Church. Is he referring to the Latin American Catholic Church? That was heavily influenced by Liberty to Liberation theology for the last 60 plus years. By the way, very poor Catholic Church. Be the very wealthy North American Catholic Church. See the European Catholic Church? That almost like Ang Ang Ang.
Like an Church feels like a social club D, do grown missionary African Catholic Church. Also very poor in persecuted Church, the Russian Catholic Church suffering, persecution by the Russian, Orthodox Church, the Asian Catholic Church persecuted by the Chinese government or the persecuted. Almost decimate. A Catholic Church at the, he's his, he talked. And is he talking about the pre-vatican, the second or the post Vatican? The second church. Is he familiar with the current conflict that emerge from the Vatican. The second he made a blanket statement.
About the Catholic Church. Which church is he talking about? Does he know the difference between them between the missed opportunity with Bishop Baron and not being specific enough about his position with the Catholic church. He left a lot of unanswered. Questions, where you stand with that.
well, one of the things I learned from Reading Carl Jung, I mean this isn't a statement he made explicitly but
But it's it emerges, as a consequence of reviewing, a fair bit of his thought, his proposition in some sense was that Catholicism was as sane as human beings could get.
And it's a very interesting rejoinder to The Atheist types because they think we could be rationalist materialists, but I don't think we can be because that isn't what we're like or we're all going to become rational in this scientific sense. It there aren't that many scientists and even among scientists. There, aren't that many scientists? It's actually really hard to be a scientist. You, it takes a lot of training. It's a very specific way of thinking and it isn't how obvious how broadly accessible?
That's ever going to be. And I say that as an admirer of the scientific Enterprise.
Catholicism is a great drama. That's a inclusive, encompassing ritual and drama as well as the system of beliefs and, you know, more power to it. As far as I'm concerned on that regard. I don't remember what my fundamental criticism was. Unfortunately. I there's many podcasts that I've done because I was so ill and sometimes, well doing them that I don't, I don't remember them at all. I meet people that I interviewed for two hours and I don't remember meeting them. It's very distressing, but that's life.
I would say and I think the idea that a critique should be differentiated. That's a very good idea and fair enough and I certainly don't feel like engaging in a blanket condemnation of the Catholic church. I've been grappling and trying to do this with Bishop Baron to part of the reason. Baron wanted to talk to me is because
the real people who are actively engaged in the religious Enterprise professionally and this is orthodox. Jews. Muslims, Orthodox Christians, Roman Catholics Protestants Protestants less soil, but some there, they're interested in the popularity of my lecture series on Genesis.
Because I did that lecture Series in 2017. It was really the first public lecture series. I gave we rented the theater in Toronto privately and booked it for 15 weeks and I offered these lectures and all the tickets sold out and most of the people who came were young men, and that's weird because you imagine going to a bank with this business plan. So I'm going to run to see. I want you to loan me some money and rent a theater. I'm a professor. I'm going to rent a theater.
I'm going to lecture the first lecture, I'm going to give will be two hours on the first sentence of Genesis. And my target market is young men. It's like, they're not going to lend me any money. That's, that's a no starter, but the lectures sold out and they've been watched. I don't know 40 million times or something on YouTube. And so the, the Civil apparatus of Many religious organizations are interested in this.
Because I obviously tapped into something that they're not tapping into and my criticism. If I remember was a criticism aimed at addressing the fact that that's not being tapped into. One of the things I talked to Bishop Baron about and I may not be addressing your friends concerned because I don't know what specific criticism he was. He was he was concerned about
I suggested to bear in that, the reason the church is the church. The Catholic church is not doing as well as it might. There's many reasons is that they are actually in the attempt to popularize the faith, especially in the 60s. They ended up not asking enough of people. So we shouldn't ask so much like no wrong decision. I
mean, he didn't expect. Okay, I got naked more excessive goddess-like. Got it. Yeah.
Okay. One thing I learned from Reading Kierkegaard, you know, Kierkegaard said at one point Rel comical piece of
Writing that once everything has become too easy, that there will be a massive outcry for voluntary difficulty and I thought that smart. Well, he was smart. He was Kierkegaard after all and the church can offer that it, that is what it has to offer. Like that's the straight and narrow path. This is very, very, very, very, very difficult, but it's alternative to hell. So, there is that out and I think that's
There's true and there's meta true. And that's
meta true. That's that's powerful because you know, churches sit behind closed doors and the board will say the whoever the board may be at a non-denominational church. Hey, Pastor this last time, you talked about, you know, pick whatever it is transgenderism, little bit too much, but you we're losing our, you know, attendees, are you talk about this? Don't spend too much time talking about gay marriage out of the Bible because as we have to be a little bit more diplomatic, you know, don't let's not raise this.
Enter too much where people are doing too many Bible studies or too many, you know, whatever, you know events at the house you're saying no double down and raise the standards and keep them high expect more from people. That's what you're saying.
Yeah, absolutely and and it isn't and not in a finger-wagging sense. It's more. I've been thinking I've been talking to a lot of Islamic thinkers, and I have a lot of people who lot of Muslim people have watched my biblical lectures like a lot. And so I have a following
Strangely enough among the Muslim Community and among Orthodox Jews and broadly among religious communities. And, you know, the Christians are often on me to come out and just profess my faith in Jesus Christ as our Universal Savior. And whenever I'm, let's say, question, didn't that matter? It's always a trap. It's like join my club. It's like, yeah, you just stay in your own club.
and I've got lots of people to talk to, you know, but a huge part of
You know, the the Muslims say it's pretty funny Peterson, doesn't realize it, but he's actually a Muslim and I had an Orthodox Jewish fellow in New York. Make a comment about his friends watching my videos and seeing them in accordance with the deepest elements of their teachings and it's a lovely thing to see. It's very surprising to me. It's quite staggering but
you know, what I'm doing is predicated on the idea that
There is way more to people than they let out. And a lot of that's to be found in their darkness and I'm making that case.
I suppose the people who be most attracted by that case of being young men, and I think that that's because they're so actively discouraged in the expression of their possibility by our culture, actively discouraged because they're regarded as, you know, oppressive Patriarchs in training or some bloody thing like that and so caustic and so
horrible, I guess, think the question, the question I was more be asking is, you know, the ideas. If we lower the standards attendance will go up. We've been losing attendance because standard
Very high, let's lure little bit. Let's be more welcoming, you know,
in more political and more relevant. So let's the religion isn't politics. It religion, is that, is the structure that contains politics. It's far deeper. It's like politics literature, religion that sort of the structure. So politics literature. Yeah, politics is embedded. Well, year Americans. I said, you're all theatrical here. Well, it's because your whole polity is is encapsulated narrative. Everyone knows that that's the American.
Dream. It's like, what's the American dream? Well, it's hard to put your finger on it and you guys are exploring that all the time. Not least in your popular culture, its constant, exploration of what constitutes the American dream. That's the container for the political structure and it's the dream that unites you the political structure does as well, but it can't unite you if the dream doesn't unite you and underneath. So the dream is that's in the domain of literature, essentially in storytelling and dream. And underneath that the
The strata of the literary. Endeavor is the religious Endeavor. The Bible is a story. Is it true? Well, it depends what you mean by true and people say well, that's Weasley. It's like no, it's not if you ask a profound question like that is the Bible true.
You can't assume true. And then cram the Bible into that you have to make both sides of the equation open to question. What do you mean by true? Well, you're not answering the question. No, I'm just not answering it the way you want me to I'm not. This is why people like Richard Dawkins always kick the hell out of religious people when they're debating them. It's because Dawkins comes armed with a conception of the truth and it's not trivial. It's like the scientific conception of the truth. This is a big club and before he even
Begins this. The whole structure of the debate is predicated on the fundamental acceptance that that definition of true is valid and complete. And so the religious people just lose because what they're up against the might of science. It's like, are they're not going to lose. That is, what do you mean by God? Is Not Great? Is that,
by the way, he he he is very, very influential how he influenced the World. By the way. I wanted to be on time. We'll go together once my well. Yeah, very
I had a conversation with him at
We're going to release that couple of weeks. How long ago was that month ago? That's very cool. Yeah, that's fast video. But yeah, that's what I'd like to talk to him for, like,
35 hours. I bet I can only imagine that especially so, how much more time do we have? I got to wrap up because it's anyways, let me show you this neighbor of mine asked me this question. He's Canadian. He says, can you ask Jordan Pederson this, go to the picture with Trudeau? What can you say about this? This is your world? I don't know if this is this even talked about over there with the whole story of
Through those, you know, related to Castro. Because years ago, like, is this, is this a good show the other picture where this other guy posted it. So, apparently this is go to the picture of a Fidel, the wife and the father. So, this is a picture of them. Three, that's his mother. That's him. That's the father, but then you put Justin right next to Castro. Can you go back to that other picture on Twitter? Yeah, that one right there.
It is really similar. Yeah. Is there any is this? Even a conversation on Canada? Has anybody been telling? Because this is written about many, many different places to the point where they tweeted about it and said, no Castro is not Justin Trudeau's
followed. It's an, it's a nasty. It's nasty bit of innuendo. And I think it's, it's, it's resentment fueled fundamentally, like, in some sense. It's a satirical joke, you know, and fair enough, but it's
It's not helpful.
Look, one of the things that happens if your political leaders using ear exposed to criticism of all sorts, and, and part of that to stop.
Your power from degenerating to something approximating a tyranny. So you kind of have to put up with it. This I would say is
I wouldn't propagate the idea. Okay, first of all, just it's speculation. Clearly. It's mean-spirited speculation on the part in relationship to the behavior of Trudeau's mother.
Even if it was true then well, what's your point? He's born a communist. That's your point. That's a stupid point, you know or what he knows that Castro is his father. And so now he's tilting hard towards the left to please him. Well, that's that's not helpful and clueless now.
The Trudeau is in some sense set themselves up for something like this because Trudeau played the senior played footsie with Castro in a way that was rather unique in the western world. And I think that was Ill.
That was not a good decision. He was less stringent in drawing a line between
The left and the radical communist left that he might have been. And so those chickens have come home to roost, in some sense in terms of this assault on his son, and Justin himself doesn't do a very good job of drawing a distinction between his views and the views of the radical left. And so, all of that mangled around in this satirical attack, but I don't think it's the most effective.
Mmm, it's got an element of real gossipy innuendo and mean-spiritedness about it that I think overwhelms, whatever humorous satire. It might also contain.
So, I mean, they did this with Obama's, you know, when Trump came out and said five million dollars, prove to me your birth certificate. You're born with these types of stories tend to do well and they tend to go viral. But you know, this is just when you look at this, it's a it looks a little too.
Too real to, you know, that's why people give it a credibility. Anyways, we are at the end of the podcast. Jordan. I appreciate you. Coming out. Couple things gank. If you are in Florida, he's performing he speaking tonight. If you can't even get the tickets at Miami, Florida Fillmore today, the third? No, yes, I'm sorry, seven. I'm sorry for seventh. You going to be in Houston? Yeah, it's where you'll be at the Bayou Music Center, 8ub in Midland, Texas night, urine Irving 10th in San Antonio, 15th in New York 16th in New York, 17 and Providence.
21st and Norwich Norfolk, Virginia, then DC on the 22nd, Philadelphia 23rd, Boston 24th. We going to put the link below if you haven't had a chance to go. Spend some time with this man. I highly recommend you take your family wife, kids and have them hear from him because he's going to get everybody thinking and at least two great conversation. And I have a feeling this will not be the last time we'll have you on again. Jordan. Thank you so much for
coming out you guys.
Yes, and what we're doing is every time we get a guest, somebody signs one of these locked boxes. You pick one signed.
Up there. So we know Jordan Peterson was in the house. Folks. This has been a week of us to and podcast for times. I think we got some lineup. Next week's only giving me one time because I'm all over the country, but it's been great having Jordan on today. Hope you enjoyed it as much as we did. Give it a thumbs up and subscribe to the channel. Tyler. You look like you're Taylor. You look like you want to say something. I say we got roll out some ah,
so tomasi Tuesday. Yeah, and maybe a few other things in the
work, but we do have a lot of surprises coming up. We just can't reveal it right now. But to anyways, take care. Everybody buh-bye, buh-bye.
Bye-bye.
