The following is a conversation without birla. CEO of Pfizer. If you'd like to skip ahead to our conversation. The timestamps is always our below. But if not, please allow me to say a few words about truth and human nature. Specifically about two groups of people throughout history that seek to lay claim to the truth. The first group will tell you that only they possess the truth that the government will save you. The company will save you. The signs. The
Ortiz. The experts the institutions will save you. The second group to will tell you that only, they possess the truth that the government will hurt you. The company will hurt you. The signs, the authorities, the experts, the institutions will hurt. You. Both groups, have the benevolent and malevolent their Heroes and they're charlatans. And I think the hard truth is that no one in this world can tell you with absolute certainty which is which you have to use your mind this.
Is the burden of being human of being free, don't blindly follow any leader. Neither the emperor. Nor the Martyr who points out that the emperor has no clothes. And then there's the lessons of History. Vaccines have saved hundreds of millions of lives in the past Century and in general, the advance of medicine has saved billions of lives. If you ignore the power of science, you're not being honest with the lessons of history and if you ignore the
Corrupting nature of power and money within institutions, including governments and companies that led to the suffering and death of hundreds of millions in the past Century. You are once again, not being honest with the lessons of History. I now noticed that I will be having this conversation with Albert, birla Pfizer, CEO, and a lot of people wrote to me. I would like to say that I was and am and always will be listening and learning with an open mind from everyone.
Own opinion with little as it is is that the development of the covid? Vaccines is one of the greatest accomplishments of Science and recent history for the rest from safety and efficacy to policy and economics. I stand humbled before complicated world full of fear and anger, a small number of malicious people from all walks of life, will use that fear and anger to divide us because the division makes them money and gives them power.
I took two shots of the Pfizer vaccine. This was my decision. I don't ever want to force this on anyone and I certainly don't want to dismiss your concerns or worse you as a person. If you choose not to get vaccinated. I can assure you one thing in this conversation and in any conversation, the choice of questions, I asked and words I say is mine and mine alone. When my words fall short as they often do it is only because of the limitations of my mind and of my
Speaking ability. It is not due to pressure or fear. I'm not afraid of anyone. I cannot be bought by anyone with money power or fame. I hope to prove this to you and to myself in the coming years. This life is short and to me, without Integrity. It is not worth living people. Sometimes talk down to me, call me naive, perhaps they are right. But it is who I am. I think this life this world.
Old this, our human civilization is beautiful. And as the thief's key said, Beauty will save the world.
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The development of the covid-19 vaccine was one of the greatest accomplishments of Science and recent history. No matter what, this should give people hope for the future and yet, it is more of a source of division. I hope we can discuss both the inspiring in the difficult ideas, in this conversation, so that we can do our small part in healing this
Division. I hope so,
take me through the day of November 8th 2020. When the Pfizer team were waiting for the results of the phase 3 clinical.
Miles.
We had assembled in a very small office that we are having in Connecticut. Very few people. There were five, I think and in another place, what we call the data monitoring committee, which is a group of experts independent experts. They aren't Pfizer. We're going to have the opportunity to unblind the data and then tell us if the study needs to continue, or if it is successful or if it fails
And we were waiting for their call. So the call came a little bit later. When what is expected? Which created a lot of anxiety to a lower but came around. I think,
2:00. You just sitting there waiting. Are we feeling
sitting there waiting and teasing one, another drinking coffee making jokes.
So what how did you feel? Like when you heard the results, the successful
results?
Free liberated happy. Like if huge weight that was on my shoulders was lifted.
I heard you said I love you to the team.
I did. You know, this is how we speaking in Mediterranean
less than maybe it's the Russian thing to, I love love. So I appreciate that kind of Celebration.
So looking back from that moment to before, how much did it cost to develop the Pfizer by intact vaccine. What was it like making the decision to make that investment when the risk is very high and you don't know if it's going to be successful
you don't, we do a lot of that. Anyway, this is what we do in our daily work. We are putting money. We are investing in research which is highly risky. The difference. In that case was that we didn't risk at all. We put it all in.
We put everything in one go so that we don't lose time. Usually will spend 50 millions. And then if that goes, well, then we will spend another 50. And then if it goes, well then hundred here. You put all together a little bit more than two billion dollars 2.3 billion dollars and it was a significant decision, but it was a very easy decision to make in the context of what we were living at that time. It was
A pandemic. People were scared. We were scared. We didn't know how to model look like. We were living unprecedented situations and we knew that we have capabilities that may help. So there was not second question or choice. We go all in.
We make decisions like that.
You're the CEO of a company that needs to make money.
And that hopes to do a lot of good in the world. How much of both of those things are part of the calculation. So when you said it was an obvious choice, I think you've said a bunch of things of the kind of saying, we need to go all-in, sort of very boldly diving in. How much was that? The world does.
A facing uncertainty and fear and potentially destructive pandemic in the early days. Just when you seeing the full uncertainty before us, don't know how it's going to unroll. And how much of it is. This may also be a good financial decision to take this risk,
I think about it all the time, and I know very well, but if you focus too much on making money, you will never make. You should focus in. What is the real value driver? And the realtor I value Drive.
It is to make breakthroughs that chains, patients lives. If you don't do that, you will never make money. If you do that. Don't worry. Things will fall into place and also money will follow. But the mentality of the companies to be hard to help the patient. And that's what the management was that, the shareholders one, because that's the only way that we can create value. In this particular case. We're not thinking at all about. What are we going to make when we sell it or if not sell it.
It because what we were focusing hundred percent was how to bring a solution to the world, but will help all of us change the way, the fear that was bring hope to the world. And as always, when you do that, you will have good returns as well.
On a philosophical level, on a human level. Do you ever worry that the pressure to cover the costs that were invested to develop a new drug to develop? This vaccine harm is your ability to conduct unbiased studies are not too tall
because the studies are highly regulated. Everybody knows what regulators. And when I say regulator, FDA European authorities, UK authorities? Israeli authorities, Japanese authorities.
The authorities want to see how the study needs to be conducted and what exactly? They need to see to approve it or not. So clearly everybody takes into consideration. How much money I'm going to invest and what is the chances that I'm going to lose them? But what you can do is to change the rules of the game so that you won't lose the money. There are very well-established methodologies. That would say very high Precision. If your medicine is
effective, if your medicine is safe, and those are there for all and or playing with the same
ruler.
Do you have an intuition about why is the FDA trying to get 75 years to release the Pfizer data? The trying to request that we will not be released for 75 years. And then maybe the broader version of that question is do you think people should have sort of full transparency and immediate access to the data immediate, you know, on the scale of weeks not years.
Aren't being very relations with with Regulators. They have been always very transparent and there are a lot of laws that they are forcing Regulators to and companies to put out their their interactions and what exactly will discussed now to go into specific details of some discussions. I don't know. What is the reason that the FDA wants to take the time and do but I'm sure they have very good
reasons.
Well, let me just say my side of it. It doesn't look like a good reason. It looks like maybe it's because I come from the Soviet Union. Now, this is not you saying this, this is me saying, this is there seems to be a bureaucracy that gets in the way of transparency. That's always the challenge with government. So government is very good at setting rules and making sure there's oversight of a companies and people and so on. But they create they slowed things down, which is a feature and the bug
Ugh, and in this case, they slow down so much. I think the reason that they set at 75 years is because they set a rate of being able to only review 500 pages of data a day or something like that, and it's a very kind of bureaucratic thing. We're in reality. You could just show the data and it's not like something is being hidden, but in the battle to win, people's trust to inspire them with science. It feels like transparency is one of the most beautiful things. One of the most powerful.
Is that the FDA has FDA has has the potential to be one of the great institutions of our country. And this is one example that it feels to me like a failure from your perspective. You're saying I'm sure they have a good reason. So do you the FDA? Is this black box that you submit things to once they approve? You know that those are the rules, it's approved. That's it
or because there's no firm Black Box. We know very well.
What is the process? Everybody knows very well? What are the processes? The review process? Also? It is very detailed. They have signed this of very, very high caliber not every regulator in the world. But the Europeans the bridge, the FDA. Clearly, they have very, very high caliber of scientists that they are going into a lot of details and also,
Basically, everything for a study is really released by law in the specifications of the product, but it's a very detailed document that it is issue and has basically the essence of everything was discussed. I don't know about specific documents if take them time to release, but clearly, this is not a black box
type of process. A lot of the stuff is how do you effectively communicate to the world about the incredible science has
Been done about the processes that were followed and I agree with you. And sometimes it's just in eloquence, in communication. It's not that there's a failure process. It's inadequate, communication and silence silence. In the moment when clearly a lot of people are bothered and have questions. This is when you speak out a new explain exactly why as as opposed to, letting the sort of distrust build-up and linger. Because the result is there's a very large percentage.
There's of the population that just I mean it divides people and science suffers. I think and also the effectiveness of solutions suffers like the vaccine and so on.
I asked a few folks. I know if they had challenging questions for you. I'm
sure many of them answer your call.
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, you know, many friendly folks out there, by the way, I'm sweating. Not because this is a difficult conversation, it is, but it's also hot in here for the record. So, one of the folks is mr. Jordan Pederson. I don't know if you know who that is. He's a psychologist and intellectual and author.
He suggested to me that I raised the concern that there's a close working relationship between Pfizer, FDA and CDC. So we talked about FDA.
Do you worry that this affects both positive and negative Pfizer's chances of getting drugs approved? The fact that there's people, you know, that worked at the FDA that not working. Pfizer Pfizer FDA that there's a kind of pipeline. Does this worry, you that it affects your ability to do, great unbiased work.
I have zero doubts that this is not affecting at all their ability to be unbiased and regulate and in order to for this the system also reinforces that by creating significant time barriers. If someone moves from an industry to FDA, she won't be able to deal with topics for a period of time. And then for even an enhanced period of time with topics that are related with a company he or she may come from. I think this
Regulators, they are really very strict rightly. So if anything I feel sometimes that maybe they should be a little bit more open-minded particular when it comes to new technologies rather than trying to judge and implement the same framework with variation of endocrinologist. To all they are always as Regulators in the conservative side, but always always, they are unbiased and they are
Frying the best them. It's not only one or two people. They have processes to make sure that they are self checks and balances within the agencies, both in CDC. And in the FDA difficult decisions. They bring external experts, that they should Express easy decisions. They are internal experts that they are debating a lot and if there are disagreements, they elevate them. So I think it's we are lucky to have good Regulators. I think I agree with what you said before.
As with all governmental agencies there is bureaucracy and the bureaucracy needs to be addressed and by saying bureaucracy is not relaxing. The the bar the bar needs to remain high but being focusing on what matters rather than on the tone the detail.
So you don't, you know, then reading quite a bit about history. You don't worry about human nature and
They can see Ben, you're saying institutionally, there's protections against
this. I think there is always the fear of corruption particularly when you speak about public servants, but clearly the risk is very different country by country and speaking about an agency's by interested. I think the Regulatory Agencies have a very good track record in history of the u.s. Of Europe of England of very good track record.
Word of integrity.
It's something I think about. So I grew up in the Soviet Union and
I need to perhaps introspect this a little bit but when I was growing up, ethically there was a sense that bribery is the only way you can get stuff done. That, that was the system of the time like you get pulled over by a police officer, like, obviously to bribe them. It was like the way of life and then so coming to this country was beautiful to see that the rule of law has so much power and ultimately the rule of law.
When enacted when, when it holds up, it gives people freedom to do the best work of their lives, but they're still human nature and that, that worries me a lot here. And again, it goes back to the perception, the communication. When there's people that have worked at Pfizer and an FDA at the CDC, you know, you look at the resume. They have those things on their resume it worries. People are these great leaders that we are.
Supposed to see his authorities. Are they playing a game on
us? I would say I recognize what you said about what happened in or what? I'm sure that what you described in the country where you're coming from. It was one how you experience it. And I know that there are other countries that you need to do these things to do your job. I don't think it's the case in this country, particularly when it comes to those ages, that you
Action, I think they have a very high track record. And also I don't think that there are a lot of people where they are worried about it or doubt. I'm sure like everywhere, they will be a minority but the vast majority of the Americans, the vast majority of the Europeans, the vast majority of the bridge, the vast majority of the Israelis. They trust, what FDA or you may or CDC or mhra
would say
Still, there is currently a distrusted big Pharma in the public. Maybe this is something I'd love to hear your comment on. There's distrust of science when it's tangled up with corporations and government institutions that we've talked about. But you have to have to be entangled to achieve scale oversight. And to achieve the kind of scale that Pfizer's they've been able to accomplish.
How can Pfizer regain the public trust? How can you regain the public trust? You think not regain, but sort of take steps to increase the public. Trust
reputation is something that you can lose in buckets, but you can Embark in drops and once you lost it, you are going to take a lot of effort to bring it back and the pharmaceutical industry lost it.
Clear. The reputation of the industry in the last decade for, was on the lowest that we have seen ever. And for there are many reasons for that. But clearly, there are reasons that are related also with the behavior of the industry.
That needed to change. And I'm hopeful that very few would disagree that. The industry is a very different industry right now.
that being said,
I truly believe that if there is one lesson but stands out from the main lessons that we learned during covid is the power of Science in the hands of the private sector.
I think it was the private sector but came with Solutions with diagnostic tests when we didn't have Solutions with respirator when we didn't have Solutions with treatments Solutions with accents and I think that demonstrated very clearly to the world, the value of thriving, Life Sciences, sector private life styles and sector of the society.
Affected, very positively the reputation both of the sector and of Pfizer.
I'm not going to make the mistake to consider given I'm not making to make the mistake that because architecture in is high, but we remain. So we need to earn it every day. Every day, with everything we do with everything we say with the way we behave and I hope but will rise to this location and we'll do that.
It didn't Pfizer for 28 years, time flies, when you're having fun and you've become CEO in 2019.
The Company You Love a company you believe in, it's a company that has developed drugs that has helped millions of people. So let me ask yet another hard question. On this topic of reputation in 2009, Pfizer pleaded guilty to the illegal marketing of arthritis, drug bextra, and agreed to 2.3 billion dollar settlement. How do you make sense of the fact that this happened to accompany you love? And then you believe in
You know, the Bixler case in 2009 was related to things that happen in 2003 and the things that happened in 2003 were things that basically several of our reps did off-label promotion. So they spoke about with the Physicians about off-label use of the product and they should, and he
clarifies our off-label are things that the FDA didn't approve, extra stuff. You basically say,
This drug does extra stuff that they have day. Never approved.
Correct? And this is something that it is allowed when Physicians are speaking to Physicians, but it is not allowed for the pharmaceutical companies to refer to this studies because usually our studies that are happening with labor and apparently, several of our reps in 2003. They did it and we had to settle in 2009 and we paid a very big fine. As you said the fine was related not to deceive.
Village of the contact, but the size of the revenues. So the the fines are, if back. There was a small product, we would get a small fine Baxter. Was a very big product, and we got a very large fine, very bad. What happened in 2003? I don't think that these things happened. Since then we have a stellar record from 2009 until now of complying with every single regulation and rule. We have internal processes to make sure that
These are not happening by individuals that may have an interest for example, to get the promotion. They may try and do things that they're not the right things and we have more importantly culture in this company that really sets aside people that they think different. So I didn't like what happened in 2003, but I believe a lot has changed in the 20 years that followed for almost 20
years.
Say you're developing drugs in developing solutions to help millions of people but there's risk involved and so there will be lawsuits heading back your way because there's a lot of lawyers in the world partially.
How do you put that into the calculation of how you tried to do? Good in the world?
That's some of the causes the lawsuits, huh? How do you not fall victim to thinking that? It's just the cost of doing business? And then some of the losses might actually represent real pain that people going through.
Well, I think that we try always to do the right thing and that's as I said, very well, embedded into our culture. If you don't do the right thing sooner or later, you'll pay for it one way or another. Yeah. And right now,
When I was doing the right thing, it is being able to find Innovations to issues that are real.
Diseases that they do not have good coverage. Good treatments right now. We try to find treatments that significantly.
Surpass the current standards of care. And we try not only to comply with what Regulators are asking us to do. This is what you need to do to prove the safety or the efficacy, but exceed, no matter what we do on that. I'm sure that people will find opportunity. Because as you said, there are a lot of lawyers to sue has but we believe in the justice system and we believe that eventually if you are doing the right thing.
You will be on the right side of the history.
I'm really glad you said that because
Focusing on doing the right thing, no matter the money. I believe is the best way to make money, just exactly what their search. And also in another way. In other Realms, creating a product that people love is the best way to make money. So focusing on the on the core of the thing that makes people feel good. That brings value to people's lives.
So, I'm now in Austin Texas, my good friend Joe Rogan. He's been highlighting to me, this aggressive marketing. I mainstream media channels by Pfizer. So let me ask the general marketing question. Do you see this as a conflict of interest as it my bias, the reporting of news that a lot of us, a lot of people, me included look to these main stream channels of news, for kind of authority of like,
Heck's going on in the world and if Pfizer sponsoring many of these shows.
There's a worried. It may be a perception thing. But there's also natural worried that they would have lewin's what they're talking about because they're afraid of losing their sponsorship. It's subtle, but at scale in might have a serious impact you worried about this.
I think people could go one way or another because of multiple Reasons from our perspective. We don't think we have aggressive marketing. What do we do?
We go on TV and we are having ads about our products and there are highly regulated. I think it is the right of people to know to learn that if there is a product. Like, that is very clearly that we cannot say things they are off label, but from within approved we need to have every time we go into v. As you know, FDA is forcing us to say, also, the bad things that can happen for a medicine. Sometimes that takes more time.
Then the good things and I don't think that we are doing aggressive marketing. Now, people could be influenced in can be biased in the podcast or in the other type of media activities that they have for multiple different directions.
Yeah. I know, but it still is pressure is human nature means. I was one of those perception, but I worry about you. I like I have a ton of sponsors for this podcast, for example, and none of them ever ask me to do anything.
They're just, you know, I think likely that kind of pressure is not happening for Pfizer, but there's an implied pressure sometimes and I worry about that a lot because, you know, I look at Academia. Like I, I look for the good in people. I tend to believe most people good or have the capacity to be good in the desire to be good. When I came to MIT. I
I was a little bit.
Disappointed, maybe heartbroken.
How much pressure?
I think I can justify pressure. People felt from Financial constraints, especially at MIT. When there's I think a lot of money, people still felt constraints and they weren't it wasn't bringing out the best in them. They weren't supporting each other. They weren't loving each other, like, celebrating each other's successes. I don't want to blame on me on everything, money, constraints, but when you have sponsors it just, I personally worry.
It doesn't bring the best out of people and so I feel like I want to put some responsibility on sponsors and and great. Big companies, like Pfizer to kind of, not get in the way of the best of human nature whether it's sponsoring podcasts, mainstream media, like, I don't know,
athletes, whatever you need to know that we are, so, so careful.
Sponsorships, first of all have very few very, very few who you have a team that for every single one could be two thousand dollars. They will try to see if there is a conflict of interest in the way we do it. And also what is the reputation of the of the persons or the programs that we are sponsoring. So I don't think our friend I think was from Texas or yes. Yeah, I don't care again. Yes. Yes. I don't think he got it right or that.
We do those type of things.
We don't own terrorism manipulate having a negative
effect on. Not even having aggressive sponsorships with a very few.
Yeah, when you click them all together,
most of the sponsorship that you have. It is more on patient related organizations, right? Rather than we are very careful not to sponsor other things that can be perceived not even influenced by perceive that we may influence. So we are very, very careful on that. This is not the case with us.
So with the incredibly fast development, the vaccine, could you tell me the story from the engineering to the science to the human story of how you could do it. So fast by November even had the ambition to do by October. It was in the initial
days. How do you days later
in that time? How do you show that the vaccine is safe and effective? Give
That I think previous vaccines have taken years to do that. Yeah,
they've actually take years to do that. And the time that it takes it is basically the vast majority, the time to conduct the Final Phase 3 study for this the confirmatory study and you do that because the phase three study cost a lot of money in our case course almost a billion.
So you don't want to go and risk a billion in blind, the data. Normally before you do a lot of experiments to make sure that the product that you are putting in the phase three is the right one. We didn't have a time. So we risk all the money. So we went into we condense all the time towards this phase 3, but the phase 3 study had to follow all the rules that any study follows.
Do this trial? Could you just briefly
describe the basics of what is Phase 1? What is phase two? What is phase
three? Let's say that there are so many faces when you try. First of all to find what is the right vaccine? We tried from 20 different vaccines. We nailed down to four and for those for we selected eventually to and then eventually won, once you have those selections. What is the dose? We are going to use and then we tried multiple different doses to see.
Which one we think is the best? What is trying entail in those early days you go. First of all with smaller doses in humans. And then after you have done a lot of experiments in animals so that you can feel that it is safe enough to go to humans and then go with very low dose and then you gradually increase the dose and then you monitor those humans to make sure that there are not any, let's say, reactogenicity to what you are giving them at the same time.
You start to measure what is doing in terms of immune responses. So you do that with multiple vaccines and you do that multiple Doses and you do that with multiple ages of people, young people old people and eventually from the 2nd vaccines to multiple doses to multiple schedules. Is it after three weeks the second dose or is it after four weeks or after six months, all of that will inform you?
That I think this is the vaccine. This is the Dos. This is the scheme that I believe will give me the best results. And when you have that then you go to do what we call the phase 3. This is a very big study thousands of people where you use the vaccine that you think is the right one and a placebo. The placebo in the vaccine. They look identical. Nobody knows if it's injected a placebo vaccine the
Listen, what makes the injection, the doctor doesn't know if he's injecting Placebo or vaccine. He knows a bar called only the computer knows in order to go into this computer. There are keys and there are at least two people that needs to put their keys, so that someone can see the data. And there's those people, they have legal obligations. Never do that. Right? So, before a certain point, so all of that is blinded the idea, is that when you go into this,
The study you need to make sure that you are going with the right one. That's why take so many so much time, but the start is the study you need to have a significant number of people that will give the two, and then you let them live their lives. And then you see how many of them will get the disease? And then you see if there are differences in percentage of infections for the vaccinated compared to the non-vaccinated, the same time you are monitoring all of them to see if there are differences in the safety profile. If those are they go to Placebo, have the
Aimed with a heart attacks with those that they didn't. They got the vaccine because heart attacks will happen. If you have 50,000 people that because part of life, these are the all these processes are very very, very well established. And since years, what we did the last one was exactly the same as we did. Always we just didn't lose time. We didn't. We're not careful with money. Instead of recruiting 50,000 people over a year.
Because we had, let's say, 30 hospitals doing the recruitment. We went with 150 hospitals during the recruitment that cost a lot of money, but instead of recruit them in a year. We recruit them in 3-4 months. So, I did this type of things by taking return on investment taking, costs out of the equation, and we are able to achieve this result, but it's not the process believing. It is the heart of the people. People don't know what they can.
And what they cannot do. And if anything they have a serious tendency to underestimate what they can do and always when you ask them something that is seemingly impossible. They will think out of the box to be able to deliver we discussed about the time instead of eight years. We then ask them to do it in six. We ask them to do it in eight months, our normal Manufacturing.
Yearly production phase was 200 million doses of vaccines every year but what we are doing in the last 10 years, we didn't ask him to make three hundred million dollars for any vaccine. We are going to make three billion doses for a new vaccine. The discovery phase of a new molecule like the treatment that we have not appealed against call it text for years. We didn't ask them to do it in three. We ask them to do it in four months, which is what they did when you are setting. This type of goals.
You know, immediately they cannot just thing within the box and immediately. This is where the human Ingenuity and the Heart comes. And this is how they surprised all of us.
There is incredible,
science and engineering going on here.
This doesn't look good.
This is what's bothering me that the conversation in the public is often not about that,
you know, the rock politics
unfortunate politics. So I spent the day with Elon Musk yesterday. He works with rockets similar situation as advisor in the sense that there is NASA, and the nurse is private company.
And that's a source of incredible inspiration to people. No, politics very little politics. So, this is part of the thing. I'm trying to I'm hoping to do our little part in this conversation that help untangle a little bit, just reveal the Beauty and the power of the thing that was done here, especially with the vaccine, but other things that are being done with the, with the antiviral
drug,
Let me just kind of Linger on the safety. What can you say? There's a lot of people that are concerned that the Pfizer vaccine, by the way of which I took two shots. No booster yet.
Is unsafe.
What do you say to people that say that
they should not fear something like that? It's completely wrong. There is no medical product in the history of humanity, but have been tested as much as this vaccine has been a minister to hundreds of millions of people and because of the importance of covid, they have been scrutinized those people constantly right now. Health Care Authority.
Are looking for every single signal around the world of people that they got the vaccine and try to see if it is vaccine related or not. There are electronic medical records that will tell us when and what happened to a person when he did got the vaccine and we know now more we have so high certainty that it is so safe.
Exactly. As the data sit says about this vaccine more than any other product. They should not be afraid or something like that. And they should not listen to information. But it is Miss information with. It is spread on
purpose. Well, I don't like the word misinformation because you know again back to the Soviet Union.
Anyone who opposes the state is spreading misinformation so you can basically call anything misinformation. That's the unfortunate times we live in is, you can call anyone. You can basically call anybody a liar and say I'm the user. So possessor of the truth and just no offense to me. Just because you wear a tie, doesn't mean you're any more likely to be in the possession of the truth and having anyone else.
So, I wouldn't disagree without the thought. I don't think that somebody who's not wearing a tie.
And as you can see, people can see that. I'm not wearing a tie and you are, but it's not about being able those that they have the power to to impose on the others. The stigma that you what you're saying is misinformation, but there are few things that our society, we have accomplished and science is one of them and data is and analytics of data is
Another one and to say that something, which is highly scientific, by people that they are not scientists II, think that it is not what you are describing, what used to happen in Soviet Union or in any other autocratic regime in the world right now, but I definitely do
think that the scientists the public science communicators of listened to over.
Over the really disappointed me because they have not spoken with empathy. They haven't sufficiently my view, have put their egos aside, and really listen to people. Yes, people that don't have a PhD people have not really, you know, maybe you not even taken like a biology course in college or something like that. But still they have children. They worry. They fear. They don't know who to trust, they don't.
Know if they should listen to the CEO of Pfizer who might have other incentives in mind who might just care about money and nothing else. And so they just use common sense and they ask questions and I think to them talking down to them as if they're not intelligent. So on is something scientists have done almost like rolled their eyes. And that disappoints me because I think that's kind of. What's is the source of division? Humility is a
virtue. Yes, and yes, the fact that
You are educated, doesn't mean that you are having either humility or empathy or you have good human qualities. This was never and will never be and Metric of judging this type of work. Those that they do this they're wrong. And actually the they are not doing good service to the public health because they are undermined. People aren't stupid. They see if you are not be
Respecting them. And if you are not respecting their need to learn because that affects their health of the mother of the kids. So I fully agree with you that we should be very patient to explain again and again and again what is happening and the vast majority of the people that they don't get vaccinations right now is because they're afraid it's not for any other reason. It's not that they have a an agenda. What I'm saying it is there is a small number of people that they have make
This for them to profit from this anxiety. I'll give you an example.
I have been arrested by FBI. This is what someone wrote. I read it. I laughed. I mean, okay. This is where they take. There was a reason why they wrote it. That the files are Co was arrested because they want to create doubt in the minds of the people that they are afraid and say look if FDA arrested him, like I want to do the vaccine, but I left a week later.
The wife of the Pfizer seal diet. There is a picture in the in this website of my wife.
Someone sends to me now. I'm pissed. I'm not laughing. I tried to find my kids. To tell them. If you read something. Mommy's fine. Don't worry. Then I remember that she has
Very old parents back in Greece. We start calling them to making sure because we know that that will be picked up by a Greek newspapers and they were republished. Okay, they are those people that wrote these things, they know very well, but my wife didn't die and died because she was vaccinated, right? So this is the narratives that they are on purpose, forming to profit from the stress and the anxiety.
Society of good
people. And that's something I have to kind of people that listen to this that kind of doubt institutions. I do also want to say that there's quite a few folks who realize they can make money from saying the man is lying to you. The government is lying to you. It's all corrupt. It's all a scam.
Big farmers lying to you, then manipulating you. I'm surprised at how much money could be made with that. And it's sad. So you have to just as people use their common sense to be skeptical when listening to politicians and Powerful figures. They should be skeptical to also when listening to sort of the the conspiracy theorists are not even the conspiracy theorist, but people who raise questions about institutions, think, think on your own think, critically.
Well, then open mind that everyone could be manipulating you but also everybody has the capacity to do good and I think science in its pure form. Not when entangled institutions is a beautiful thing. And in the hands of many companies it is a beautiful thing at scale.
Still, you have a lot of incentive as having created the vaccine at Pfizer. This incredible technology.
To sing its Praises. So there's a kind of, you know, people are skeptical, like, how much do we trust, how excited Albert is about this vaccine? So for example, let me not to do a Shakespearean analysis of your Twitter, but I think he tweeted something about a study with 100% efficacy of the vaccine or in stopping and transmission or something like that.
Do you regret?
Sort of being like over representing the effectiveness of the vaccine technically saying correct things but just kind of like highlighting the super positive things that may be. Misinterpreted, you know saying
100%. No, I never said something on the percent. That every time I speak you've been a hundred percent. I rushed to say that in biology. There is nothing hundred percent because always there will be when you go to the millions. Okay, there were in the study.
Things that were hundred percent. For example, deaths or in South Africa, when we tried, it was 100% ethic has clearly small numbers when the numbers will become much bigger. The hundred percent will not hold, but will be 95, 96. So still the direction of this is the point. So I'm very, very careful how I what I treat. And in addition to how careful I am. I have people that we are looking at and
are having second or third opinion, to make sure that we don't put why? Because I know that people are listening to me right now. Everything I say. Yeah, and I want to make sure that they continue not only
Not only being clear as to what I want to say. So there are no misunderstandings but also maintain the trust of the people. I don't think that someone who only sell pigs information and only emphasizes, pause the things. It's someone that it is the one to be trusted and I want me and Pfizer to be trusted.
So many fat vaccine was presented as a cure that wouldn't require regular booster
shots.
Was that something you believe there?
Early on is you always believe that many regular shots would be required and maybe in a bigger picture. How many do you think this will for the Pfizer vaccine? Is that something you see that's taking a booster shot regularly like, annually
know in the beginning when we had the first months with the vaccine people would ask me, do we need another one? And I said, we don't know I was very clear about it. Then around April, May I start seeing the first data and I made statements, but I think we will need
Booster around 8 to 12 months after the second dose. And then after that, I'm Yuri vaccinations. This is what I said, believe is the one of the most likely scenario.
And it was based on the data by the head. But then Delta came and because I always making the the caveat that with option and new variant with everything. We know with Delta. It proves proven that we need the booster to move to the 3 to the 6 months. And this is what happened and I still said I think the booster is a six months and then I think will be an annual revaccination like we have to monitor to see the data but this is the likely scenario.
Now if I'm a girl and I'm a Grimm says that two doses might be challenging. We don't know exactly yet for three doses work. So clearly a lot of countries already started moving. Now, the third dose not in 6, from 6 months to 3 so that they will reduce the period that people will not be protected with with the third dose. I don't know with Omicron if how long
This will last and frankly. I don't know if we would need a new vaccine tailor-made to Omicron based on everything. We know so far. We are monitoring and to no way more in the weeks to come if there isn't it. For any vaccine we will have it. And if there is a need for mass production of this new vaccine, I can also feel very comfortable that we will not lose any of our capacity that we have developed right now. We are running at 1 billion almost approximately.
Doses per quarter for per year. And if you have to Street and have half of that in the new half of that, in the old, we will do still four billion dollars. So I think the world should feel very, very comfortable that if there isn't it? We will be ahead of the virus.
Yeah. I did. I delivered or produced three billion this year vaccines. And we're on track to do four billion next year. And if we had
A lot more time we talked about how the heck you achieve. That kind of scales is truly incredible. Let me ask the policy question. What are your feelings about vaccine mandates in terms of? Do you think the most effective way to vaccinate the population is to require it? Or do you go with the American way and give people the freedom to choose?
I think it is a very difficult.
Topic in end, very difficult decision. Whoever needs to make it and clearly it's not me. It is the public health officials of every country that they have to make this decision. I have to make the decision for files employees and I had to to balance the fear of those that they work. That they want to feel that the others are vaccinated and the fear of those that they don't want to get the vaccine. And eventually I came to
To the decision that we will mandate at fight. We are flexible. We are giving exceptions of course for health, maybe some religion, but we decided to mandate. Now at Pfizer. We when we did this decision, we were at 90% vaccination rates when we set you're going to mandate and that took it up to 96.
It
works, right? This 10% was never going to move. I felt because no matter what you have a small number of people that really are scared and they don't feel comfortable to do it. Okay, it worked in our case. We took it to 96%. I'm happy for those people. A lot were not disease and some gonna die of the of these people, but it's not to me to say because the debate it serious debate and
There are a lot of pros and cons. If you need to push people, if you need to give them the freedom. And it's comes with the territory. If you are elected to run a country, you should be ready to make difficult decisions.
And no matter what decision you make there will be fake stories written. By as we talked
about. Oh, you will not be able to please everyone.
Yes. Well, let me just say that I think again coming from the Soviet Union, I think at the public level at the federal level mandates is
Is a really bad idea even if it's good for the health of the populace. There's something about preserving. The freedom is really powerful about this country. Like doing the hard work of convincing people to get vaccinated to choose to get vaccinated if they want but still have the freedom not to, that's a really powerful freedom. To me. It's super lazy to mandate people should understand the science and want to give accented.
Do you think children need to get vaccinated?
I do, I do think that they need together tonight.
So age ranges 5216. There's a lot of parents that
that fear for the well-being of their children. Can you empathize with those parents? Can you steal man their arguments against the vaccine for their
children, you know, because people know who I am, I had the opportunity to M2 to interact with parents. Before that was, let's say approved and there were so many way more that I had a lot of empathy because they were afraid.
For their kids because they didn't have a vaccine.
And they were the ones that were speaking. At that time, bring me vaccine. When are you going to bring me back? Then? I really fear. I feel that this is unfair, but I am protected. My husband is protected. My old son is protected and my little sweetheart because she is below, the AIDS is not protected. Now that we have the vaccines. I'm sure that those that they are afraid of the vaccine not of the disease, which are smaller number admittedly, also, they will have, if
Afraid of them. I'm sure that they will afraid even more about their kids because they love, I would say more than they love themselves. So, it's going to be the situation and again, the same how it can you do to demonstrate to convince people to win the minds and the hearts of the people that this is the right thing to do.
What do you think about that calculation? Because the risk for kids is very low kids. Do die. Kids do go to the hospital from covid. Yes, but the rate is very
low, very
Is lower. But kids, they do die and how can you say that? I'm not going to I'm not going to protect a kid for something that it is likely to happen and it is not only that what happens in the school when they stopped the education process because a kid got the disease and they don't have vaccines so that they can control it is such a big disruption and such a big risk for for the health of the of the
Kids shouldn't be a debate look.
How many kids are having polio right now?
Wait. Fewer. Number than those that they're having coveting in the hospital, but everybody's getting the vaccine.
It's
what polio was deadlier for kids,
but it's not now. So, why some a kid to do it now, because needs to be protected. Well, the unique
thing about the covid vaccine is a new type of technology to. So, there's an extra concern choosing to vaccinate a child. You're making a choice that can potentially hurt them.
That's the way parents that are hesitant about the vaccine.
Think, I think choosing to exterminate children makes a choice, so that something could not potentially hurt them, which is the disease. That's why we are doing vaccinations since ever II know that there are people that their concern for themselves and for their kids, what, I know it is, but I'm a scientist and I'm a parent and I am.
Telling you that vaccines is a very good thing for kids and thank God, we were able to develop.
So we've talked quite a bit about the vaccine but there's an incredible new technology that Pfizer is developing with the packs. Love it, antiviral for covid. Where does that stand? How does that work? And how are you able to develop it in four months? Like you said, and all of that in just a few minutes?
First of all, what this is about, this is a real game changer. This is a course of treatment that you get only. If you get the disease you get covered. Then what happens is that you will take 45 days, pickles day and night, and twice a day for five days. And instead of 10 people from those that the easiest to go to hospital, only one will go. This is an end.
With all the caveats that the numbers are small. No one died. It was 100% efficacy on death. Of course. I'm sure that in real world, when the numbers are getting very high. We may have 99 instead of 100 but these are spectacular results for something that you can take home and stay home. The biggest problem right now. In Europe in the u.s., When you have shared this, every time we have a search of of covid. It is
Is that the icy use our full? The hospitals are paralyzed, they have to postpone, elective surgeries. They have to postpone other operations because they don't have the capacity because of that. Keeping people, out of the hospital's home, keeping people without dying. It is something I didn't have before. And this is significant, significant Game Changer.
I have that.
Controversial difficult question will what are your thoughts about Ivermectin? Has it? Sufficiently been studied as far as a considered it and it's like I said incredible development of the antiviral as like as a comparator that kind of thing. Just investigated in general. The reason I bring it up because I've read quite a few criticisms of people. There's been some comparisons of Paxil over to the Ivermectin and I think
People should look up. There is Doctor John Campbell that describes that comparison and makes that claim, and there's a quite a lot of people that debunk or argue against that. You can do your own research, but there is a lot of people that kind of see this free drug without patents on it. And say, this could be the Savior. So can you just speak to that comparison? And he's one of the first
time? If you remember there were other compounds that were claimed that they are the
This was the solution and to carve it and clearly they were proving that they're not, there are compounds that their solution and composite, they're not. I as a scientist and I discussed with our scientists. They don't see any reason why a medicine like Ivermectin, which the policy decide to be able to act on covid. And so they don't think that there's any connection and they haven't seen any paper.
The describe someone that used it, that he had any results. I'm sure that there will be some people that will claim because people are claiming anything, but I don't think that there was any paper in any peer review magazine and reliable scientific magazine to support this claim. So we are focusing on saving people's lives. We are not focusing on on.
Craziness.
Well, the the pushback there is quite a lot of papers but the studies are small so that it so there's no conclusive evidence. And that's pretty
much what I mean, but do these are reliable, right? I don't know. Where are these smaller big, reliable. I haven't seen
any well, some of the big ones have been retracted, which means they weren't legitimate. Yes. So, you know is that this is definitely something that people need to look and did the people that kind of
The question or the effectiveness Ivermectin. Definitely something to think about and I think it's the reason that packs
was fluoroquinolone before. Yes. For God's sake. That's why pack how many people died because of it.
Yeah, this is the this is this is the dangerous thing. This is the sad thing,
but a slow with has been studying thousands of people and will be under the scrutiny. Not only of regulators. But as we will go into the implementation as it happened, in many countries, they will monitor to see what happened with. Let's say that whatever we do. Once it is out there within a few weeks. They will know all hospitals, if it works or not because they will see the statistics.
We've gone through one of the more difficult periods.
And recent human history over the past two years like a society. What gives you what gives you hope about the future for human civilization. You look into the next few years.
I think they're human Ingenuity. I think, although there are, there is the world always is progressing. Although there are a lot of things that need to be fixed in the Society of 2020. The side of 2020 is better.
Art's then thinks, 50 years back, 200 years back in all different aspects, from poverty for human rights, from from science, from quality of life. From any aspect. I am positive that humans can create and always create a better future and will continue doing. So
you have helped save the lives of millions of people help improve the
the quality of their lives, but you yourself are just one biological organism with an expiration date. Do you Ponder your mortality? Do you think about your death? Are you afraid of death
or a? That's a very interesting question. I I was discussing with a lot of people. What I was Fearless of death. I couldn't care less when I was young. The first thing the first time that I start feeling that I want to be around which one I had.
It. And then I started feeling that oh gosh, is it? I hope I will be around to see their wedding. I hope they will be around to see their children. So if there is something that scares me is the possibility of will not be part of their lives anymore, and I would not be watching. I hope there is life upstairs. So I will be able to watch them from
there from upstairs. Get a nice overview. Let me ask the big ridiculous question.
And you only have two minutes or less to answer it. What is the meaning of life? What's the meaning of this whole thing? You said, Ingenuity is the thing that gives you. Hope we seem to be all busy trying to help each other trying to Build a Better World. Why are we doing
that? I would repeat something. But Steve Jobs has said death is life's biggest invention. It's eliminates the old and gives place to the new but life is all about.
Out moving forward, life is all about creating new things. Maybe everyone is a contributor, but no one is the owner
and always creating something new, always adding Something Beautiful into the world, maybe a little bit of love.
Hopefully Albert. Thank you so much. It's a huge honor that you go through some of these difficult questions with me today. It and then you give your extremely valuable time for this conversation. Thank you so much for talking to
thank you for your interest, and I'm happy as I was telling you before, but I can brag with my kids. I thought I was in your podcast because you're their hero. You made it. I made it. Thank you. Thank you.
Thanks for listening to this conversation with Albert birla to support this podcast. Please. Check out our sponsors in the description, and now let me leave you with some words from Oscar Wilde. The truth is rarely pure and never simple. Thank you for listening. Hope to see you next time.
