After I recorded this episode I thought this is one of the best things I've ever done. There's a lot of lessons here. I hope you enjoy it.
So give that the first time you met and this was maybe a month and a half ago. We were introduced by a mutual friend. It was because I wanted to interview you about the work you're doing with patients in your clinic and about psychedelic therapy and instead we end up talking about what I went through last year where basically died and was brought back literally and funny enough the anniversary of the for that is coming up this weekend and I have been able to sleep for a week as with all the memories will be coming back and I was wondering why and I realized the other day. I was like, oh it's
The anniversary is coming up and we talked a little bit about it. You said you need Psychotherapy session and I was like, hey, you know you want to record it and see what comes up and maybe they'll become a podcast episode where you were so kind you said, okay, you were game. So for this one instead of me interviewing your it's completely your wheelhouse. There's only a couple things I'm going to say one is I've never done a hardcore 40 and psychoanalysis session. And as I told you earlier and you laughed I'm not a fan of Freud, but I want to do this because I am a fan of the work you do and you are
A sharp and I'd really you had this beautiful Human Side to you shared when we talked I was like, okay, this is someone I'd want to do a session with and learn more and I was telling about my crazy views on the nature of reality after all this so let's start a little bit the me stopping talking and so you just give a little background yourself. So people know who you
are. Thank you can well I'm delighted to be here and I'm very excited to participate in this recording experiment with you, which is really I think what it's kind of evolved to my name is Geeta vaid. I'm a psychiatrist and a psycho.
List in New York City as Kemal mentioned I actually was trained at a very Freudian conservative psychoanalytic Institute with NYU Medical Center. But really the reason we were put in touch was because of my more recent work with psychedelics for the last several years. I've been very involved with psychedelic assisted Psychotherapy and really the deep healing that it can provide our predominant been working with ketamine. Although I have also worked with maps and incredible.
Organization multidisciplinary Association for psychedelic and under that umbrella Maps trained psychotherapist with the MDMA PTSD study. So that's really the reason we were put in touch and I was delighted to tell you about my work but your story and experience blew me away and it was really exciting this kind of exchange between two people who are very curious. That's what I remember most about it. So that's my background.
To and I'm delighted to be here and sort of talk with you and really admire your openness towards revealing yourself and sharing yourself in this way.
Well, thanks. Honestly, I've been quite nervous about this episode. I've been thinking about it for a week and each time. It's like, okay don't think about it just show up and and be and so we're not doing psychedelics. We're just doing hardcore Psychotherapy from your hand just as an FYI to anyone listening
when I say hardcore Cycles are I don't know how hardcore jizz and I would say it's not going to be as Freudian because
really the theory leaves you behind it really is the person and it's an exchange between two peoples. You don't have to be too worried about the Freudian puddle. I'm curious what that means to you because it seems to have some heavy waiting.
Okay, I think it's more because when I read Freud early on and young early on I was always drawn more too young for it just seemed like he was putting his issues on his patients. That's the sense. I got dude. Everything's not always at cigars not always one particular thing, but that's all there was. I still got it that I just
Dogs and I liked how he just going to happen and mapping the subconscious and synchronicity and the nature of reality which is more my jam.
Absolutely. So tell me a little bit about your sleep problems. You said you've been having a hard time recently and it was surprising. It sounds like to realize you were coming upon a very big anniversary.
Yeah. I realized this a couple of weeks ago that the anniversary is coming up and then I promptly forgot about it on purpose but just I'm able to sleep at night every night I go to bed and I'm a bed for hours. And for some reason I keep thinking about last year what I was
going through and then afterwards and it's not even like I'm thinking in any way it's more like flashbacks of memories that are coming pain or the loneliness that came from it from the pain and then the moment of when everything happened that's been coming up a lot and part of me is like intrigued by part of me is like well, I don't want to think about it part of me is like, okay. Thank it and face it again dude, because that's what you do you face when you get better you move forward but of all that but it's been pretty very consistent and just reminding me that what's today the 30th of September I went in for
Surgery last year and 2019 on October 2nd and 12 hours later on. The morning of the 3rd was being released was when everything fell apart. I've literally burst an artery. They moved around it burst at Amber so hard that all the blood pulled up arteries a one-way Street a major arteries or whatevs abdominal artery is a one-way Street pull up all this massive amount of blood in my abdomen and that burst it was so hard that it works out of my body and I was spraying blood everywhere and it talked
About something your mind is not designed for I just imagined blood spraying out of you and you just covered in your own blood that memory keeps coming back horrific. Yeah, it's not a fun one.
Unfortunately you explain to me you this happened on the hospital premises
itself? Yeah, if I had if I was getting ready to be checked out and if I had left all the different doctors have worked on me and came up to see me because I'm pretty friendly guy and they would come chat with me without cause I was in the hospital for a while after that. They told me like look if you had been an Uber if you've been outside anything you would have died.
There's no way you could have been saved. The only thing that saves it
and as it shown that you actually did die. They were able to resuscitate you,
right? Yeah, I got to experience the things that I experienced the psychedelics. I got to experience of the real
way. So what happened then after you had this horrific event, they rushed to the ER is
that right? No. No, they rushed me into there was a surgery starting. This is not something that there was a surgery starting and they actually threw the patient out and put me on they just it was pure man Panic people screaming running around.
It was all just residents and nurses and doctors and I think they were purple or reddish scrubs in surgery there and they will mean to a no are and that's where they had to basically / me open. You know, now you can go politely it's not like a polite surgery. You're literally going to go and find that artery and clamp it and then fix it. Oh boy, so they're basically just threw this other surgeon is about to start and they said that another lucky thing happened. I said normally a know ours is not available. We would have to do with some where Messier this or
Just starting and we were just it was just completely fully ready. And this patient was being wheeled in we just threw that patient up with you in you know, it's all like the timing basically like each doctor and came to talk to me just talked about different levels of how the timing worked out. It was just like going students about coincidence and coincidence. I've been thinking about that too. We can talk about that as
well. How is it for you now talking about this as we're discussing it and you're describing these graphic details. What are you noticing in yourself? And in this conversation, is it okay with you?
Yeah, cuz I think now I can.
Step out of it a little you know, and I can describe it though often though, you know friends reach out and they want to know what happened and I'm like look don't make me relive it. It doesn't serve any purpose, you know, just just know that I'm better. That's all that matters, you know celebrate my being alive and being better but here seems okay because I kind of know I'm going to do this and I'm ready to do whatever I trust you. I'm in your wheelhouse, right this this is your episode. So I'm okay with
it, and I appreciate that and I'm happy. I feel very honored that
Trust me. I also want you to really listen to yourself carefully because if anything comes up as we're talking today that you feel yourself wincing or feeling yourself hesitant and referring to not talk about something. I really want you to respect that and just let me know. Just let me know that something came up that makes me feel like I don't really want to talk about this right now because that's very important. I think actually this would be as it would be even if we were talking privately in my office. This is not unique to this.
EXT okay. I mean like look when I was describing it. I was feeling like this kind of like uncomfortable feeling my abdomen but that's not enough to stop.
That's what are you noticing in your
abdomen it's kind of like when you just want to double over and that reminds me because then I spent months doubled over in pain because I was I was an insane amount of Narcotics in the hospital IV and oral All the Time Around the Clock like whatever the most they like we give you the most we can doctors told me Lena like when I was
If anyone qualifies for opioids, it's you and he said like whatever you need a refill just call me. I'll immediately get it for you, you know and but I was a week into the opioids and I stopped two reasons one is I noticed my mind liking them. I noticed my mind because what they do is it's not the pain disappears. It says you don't care about it. You start to just float through life not caring about it. So now I was like, oh shit. I don't get why people get addicted to this and my mind was liking it too much.
Much so that was one signal you got to get off this before it in your mind sets needing it. And the second was I was doing the final edits for my for my book. Love yourself like your life depends on it. That was command January and I'm an obsessive writer every word matters and I was editing it and you can edit when you're old poet as I can. My mind was too slippery. So I went off and I was just in Haines working on the book for months, you know, I would just work on it and sweat and pain and then go curl up on my couch and just be like bread.
Up in pain and then go up and then start working on it again. It was so kind of best my stomach feeling right now tightening and feeling burning reminds me of that. Just going work in the book and then just click and curled up in pain and writing the pain
out. That's very powerful picture you paint is also kind of extraordinary the title of your book that you were in the midst of
no kidding right? Maybe you could say something. I'm
sure you're the audience already knows that work in a familiar with it, but it's quite it really struck me when you and I spoke. Love you.
Self as if your life depended on it and then you have a near-death experience in the midst of the book. Yeah. It's kind of
funny, you know, like the book was written before this experience. In fact, I've sold it before this experience and I was just doing the final final edits re just going through making, you know, you're not even writing anything new it was kind of, you know, honestly, I didn't think about the book that way while I was doing this. I was just like I got I owe it to this book I owe to the world. I oh I felt like I had this gift to give and
To do whatever it took to give that gift and it was bigger than me and honestly, it's I had nothing else going for me in that life where I was at that time. I was so alone and by myself in this apartment New York, just every once in a while I would go for walks when the pain wasn't bad or I would try to grab a dinner with a friend and just you know, let people see that I'm okay, but not really let them see what's going on because and
so you were in a bad place to begin with emotionally before this event happened or before the surgery.
I don't know if I was a bad person. Wish I wasn't
a great place but this definitely put me in a bad place and I'll tell you while I was working on the book. I was eating my own dog when I was applying it obsessively. It was my it was also a life raft for me as well as what got me up to do something. But also I you know, I'm a big boy, I can't write something. I work on something that I'm not living so I had to be living
it. Could you summarize what you were living? And what is the major tenants in the
book? I mean, it's the practice is that mental work, you know, it was the mental creating those Loops of feeling love for myself a feeling through
All making myself feel grateful and when the god there were moments where I felt just the opposite of that and try to feel blessed for being alive versus even though it was in a really shitty State trying to feel the blessings of it. So all I did was working my mind. I remember being in the hospital and you know, I'd gone it was supposed to be discharged in a day. I left I think a week and a half later, right and I left the moment. They said you can leave hospitals like the worst place to be when you're not feeling well, especially a teaching hospital they come
Every two hours and just use you as the the VC the pin cushion that they all practice on and I was actually in a private room. I was like, here's my AmEx put me in the best room you got so even then they still do that. And I'm sorry I got lost. No. No, that's a question. That's okay. Maybe I scared.
That's okay. I was just wondering about your where you were before you this event happened how you were doing? You said before you came into this event. You were working on your book and in a lonely period is that right or am I misunderstanding?
Yeah. I was going through it through a true heartbreak and
Book what part of that book Chronicles there, but this it continued and intensified and I was going through that but also interesting enough at the same time. I was really working on my mind. I month before the surgery. I was in Nepal and Mustang Valley which had just recently opened up to Outsiders. And this is where near the border of Tibet, you know, like Villages there that are like from The 14th Century you walk there and there's nothing's changed. It's amazing. It's amazing except people sitting there on their on their phones probably like on Facebook, but outside of that they look exactly the same.
Mm, and I was studying with the bond who are the mystics of Tibetan Buddhism their Awakening practice, which is The Enlightenment practice. And so I was Hardcore studying that and came back and I was practicing it and then this
experience it really is quite a perfect storm of experiences of breakdown in certain ways. It
seems like I guess yeah, you know go big or go home
right? It's pretty extraordinary story, right? You know, I was thinking about your writing the book and then there's what Drew you to debate.
Sent to this exploration. I know you've always been obsessed Eco really and interested in Consciousness. Was this part of that ongoing Journey or on? Yeah. I mean look I was that
kid. I remember like I was that kid was trying to figure out the nature of reality as long as I can remember. Hmm. Well wasn't I want to know what this whole things about I really want to know it tried all sorts of things and so forth, you know, we were talking about experience of psychedelics like things like Ayahuasca. I've done it dozens of times. I've done it by myself in the jungles of Guatemala with at the
Of a Mayan pyramid with snakes a monkey's around me in a monkey's Hank, you know the swing you over branches my head all sorts of crazy stuff because I want to know I want to know what I want to know. What's inside me. I want to know what this whole shows about and I've done I Boga which takes you as far as you can is the only psychedelic that can kill you. I'm faster by mistakes because they're the nutjobs of every religion but because they're the ones who go the furthest out there like we don't want to go through a priest or this at that. We want to experience Divine directly. Yes. I wasn't fast about Mystics.
This Christian Mystics Buddhist mistakes, you name it because these are people who go and experience directly for themselves. So that's why I rented this was amazing opportunity. They were teaching for the first time westerners in a small group stuff that never taught
before uh-huh sounds it sounds really radical. And what did you learn? Well
through this practice is I got to taste Awakening for about a few seconds and I wonder like all these things I do did they lead up to me just basically creating the shitstorm and I sometimes wonder about that. I've come to believe that and this is
okay. Now we're getting to Mars personal beliefs. If I may jump it for a second. I've created this whole show of my life like I'm responsible for it again. I created I take responsibility for every bit of it. I didn't ask the surgeons to maybe not suture correctly. I was out I didn't ask for those things. I didn't never even consciously thought I but I somehow I'm responsible for every bit of it including my healing. So I wonder though how many inches is playing around with the nature of reality stuff actually, maybe loosen things up a little I don't know. I've been asking myself these questions. I don't know.
Answer. Well, I think that your questions and your inquiry is actually the most interesting piece. You know, I'm gonna ask you a question. I don't know you at all other than our first conversation in this but I'm getting a sense that you have been pursuing the nature of reality and a really hardcore about it. You know, when you talk about I Boca being the one you can go the farthest out or even die from right? It doesn't feel as if you touch your shied away from from dangerous Pursuits, perhaps even going to this Edge.
Of Tibet as well is fairly radical thing to do significantly radical thing to do. I would say right seems like you've that hasn't turned you off or you gravitate towards these well pretty extreme things. It doesn't stop me.
I mean, look, I joined the army when I was 18, I was in college at a full ride. I left that in join the Army because I was ordered to see what that was. Like, it doesn't stop me. I don't know if I run for dangerous things. I don't necessarily like, I don't think I want them anymore. I'm done with it the drama of it, but it does it won't stop me. I don't
Fear, I hate it. I hate it.
Well, yeah,
that's interesting because you say you don't like fear but joining the Army at 18. Can you say more about that?
Yeah, I was in college and I had asked Allah false full ride and all we did was drink and party and even 18 I was bored of it. I was like, this is all there is I mean I didn't have to go to I don't have to show up to my classes and I was getting a so I just could read the books as much as a professor reading it to me and I was showing up and doing great and I'd for the exempting great not even showing up the classes. I was like, I am bored out of my mind. I want to do something else.
To be remembered that point I wanted to be challenged. I wanted to make myself better and I looked around at 18 and I also felt like look I wanted to serve my country and that fit in perfectly and I was like, this is going to make me better. This is going to challenge me in a way. I can't challenge myself and at 18. I did that looking back. I'm kind of like impressed at that eighteen-year-old thinking that way.
It's pretty impressive. What did what did it live up to your expectations? How did it
change you? Well look boot camp is for me. It was all about boot camp. I want to experience boot camp and I
To experience infantry boot camp which is different kind of rough training in the marsh and the military and one experience. I wanted to see how I would make it through because I didn't know if I would make it through people fail out of it and I made it through but every day they challenge you that's all it is about it says it's all mind and the military is not even they'll get you in shape. So even if you're out of shape and I was in I've always been committed to being in shape, so I wasn't enough shape when I got there, but it's the Mind thing, but they just make you miserable every day and you just learn like I'll just
Through it. That's all military training. Is it trying to make it miserable and make you realize you can get through anything? That's all that was.
It really pushes you beyond your comfort zone and really push you beyond your limits, right? That's what it sounds like from what you're saying
and it was really good for this. I mean, I turned 19 and book. I was really good for me looking back gave me a sense of self made me know that I could handle myself as a man or as a grown boy back then, you know that allowed me to try, you know, my traveling and around the world with a backpack and not speaking the language in the countries. I was in
That came from actually thanks to the air to the military. I knew that, you know put a put a backpack of my bag back. I can handle myself anywhere. I'll figure it out. That's part Kamal part. Thanks to the military.
That's wonderful. Looking back. You do have a theme running through your life. I'm noticing of you gravitating towards these sort of extreme Pursuits and Explorations where you have recognized you grow when you push yourself to the edge kind of like what you were talking about Mystics, right? You know the most extreme of every
And to really try and experience beyond the constraints of self, which of course gets into the margin of Life Death, right? It does seem to be something that you have gravitated towards would you say there are other examples we haven't touched on looking back using that framework that you could identify even in childhood or anywhere in your life that kind of fit into that lens
that can make sense. I've actually I think I wrote about this at love yourself as well this belief that I've had that you grow through difficult challenging situations and trust me after last
Year, I worked hard to break that belief because I'm done. I'm tired. I'm tired of the you know, you can also grow and I have go through life through love and just doing things that are comfort as far as your question other things in life. Look I'm a big believer in Fitness. So I always like pushing myself and fitness to get better. For example this year as I start to get better. It was a long road and one thing that really helped me was oh I can start working out again, but then covid happened in the gyms closed and Jed the gym. I always
Is my happy place wherever I travel to in the world, I had to find a gym put me in a room with the rusty rusty weights and former prisoners just all and I am happy, you know, it's like the speak my language but Waits sorry
good. What does it provide for you the gym
it lets me push myself. It's only me versus me. And I you know the weights don't lie. I can see if I got better or not fit our not because gravity doesn't lie. So the weights will tell you if you're stronger or weaker and I've always enjoyed I was in joy.
And knowing that I you know, I'm getting better and better my body is getting better and better and then the comb. It happened. The Jim's clothes. That was my place that I could go to to Alice Lee mentally also heal and I was watching YouTube videos. I saw people doing gymnastics and specifically Olympic rings, which is the hardest event for men's gymnastics. And I looked at these with the most jacked guys and and men's gymnastics. So Amazon bought a pair for 50 bucks that you can just hang up a tree branch anywhere and start teaching myself Olympic rings. Wow.
I would just watch YouTube videos and I like teaching myself. I don't like doing formal training because I learned that about myself I could have bought courses and done it by like falling in love with it. And then I can do the training because what if I love with it, I'm hooked. So I just started playing around with it like a child and that's actually something I've also noticed very different than I weigh used to be before is this coming alive after this experience has woken up like a very playful curiosity of me that I don't
It was that's always been there. There's been currents of it. But that was big as childhood and all of a sudden is really big. Now. If you were to describe me right now would be like I'm playfully curious and I started doing that with rings that I fell in love and I've actually gotten quite good at it people will I'll be outside somewhere doing it and I'm doing stuff that gymnast do and people stop and stare. I don't care about that. But what it is like I've built my body up to the way. I like you doing this new thing that I Fall In Love It I absolutely love it. It's become I will talk about your dad.
Rings for episode. So you have to stop me.
No. Well, I love the way you're talking about. But you say that's a new a new capacity after the whole event that you actually
feel like something. I've noticed something. I've noticed. I actually left a message for someone my birthday message for someone and I was just rambling a little bit about where I am in life. That's not have realized something that you know, this is really interesting if I ran into the man exactly a year ago right before the surgery, right if I ran into him and the who I am today at this moment are exactly a year ago the same guy except that year.
Older I would recognize him and he would recognize me physically obviously, but in his mind, I'm so different. I'm so different in my mind that I was a year ago. It's insane.
I'd love to hear more about what's different and how would you describe the difference How would how would each of yourselves see the other?
Yeah, it's really really interesting. So the heart is the same I feel and the heart is actually I'm more in touch with my heart more in touch with the beauty of it rather than struggling against it.
Because also this hard feeling a certain ways lead to heartbreak as well and just this not even paying attention. You just lie like focusing on the beauty of it, but also my mind because I worked I remember when I was in the hospital I had this is why I was going to tell you it was miserable. Like, you know, they come in there they poke you and then this is New York City and I'll be very honest some of the nurses were great at some of the nurses should just be thrown out and Barda far tarred and feathered they were just horrible. You're an insane pain and you know your narcotics right now. Are you call them? They come over they get mad at you for disturbing that mean I said fucking job.
But I decided I could sit there and get mad and be in pain and feel sorry for myself, or I couldn't feel good about myself at the time. You know, I was very alone and in pain but I decide was I'm just going to start making these people even if the team was shitty making them feel better. So I just started like becoming more playful and joking and making my goal was anyone that came in the house were going to work on me. They would be in stitches by the time they left I would make them laugh about something if that was my goal for so gave me something to focus on in my mind. So working on this by mine.
Right now is look at still the same mind. I'm still me but there's like a new part of me that that's almost like Blossom that I never let out before and I think I have to let it up because I was a survival mode and is trauma and that was what was saving me and that's what I focused on. So it makes sense.
Absolutely. That's what you use to save yourself in this situation like the best of yourself your these capacities. It
really allows I didn't I didn't want to come out of this bitter. I didn't want to come out of this angry I'd it was easy to I was a
abandoned by the woman I loved I was waiting for a regular surgery this a very elective surgery was gonna be painful but it was expected painful just like a surgery is but I'm supposed to be out the next morning doing my thing and being I was supposed to recover but but in two weeks and then stead it's been a year of recovery. They spend horrible just horrible at times. I've seen by God if I had enemies I wouldn't wish this on any enemy and I didn't want to come out of this with my mind being worse. I don't want to come out of this being worse for it. I was like look if I'm gonna
Go through this. I'll tell you something. I was telling a friend today that I'm just trying to share a little bit. I haven't shared this publicly those months after after when lying in that case. It's because it was so much time was spent lying on that couch and pain and just writing out the pain. That's all you can do is just breathe through it breathe through it this there's no other choice or just drugged yourself, which I chose not to do. They were times where I remember thinking like look, I almost left. You know, I came so close to leaving this planet.
And it was so easy. Maybe I should this is not worth it. This is really not fucking worth it what I'm going through because I couldn't because it was just so bad. Like I just like this is not worth it. I and I remember thinking I'm a good man. I don't deserve this. Yes, like I've done real good in this world. And if I left now, I leave good behind. Yes, but going through this is not worth it for me, and I don't remember the moment, but I remember something
Side me said at one point I have is this very honest very honest feeling with myself something inside me said look you almost left but something saved is something stopped it or some Ava's either something stopped or something saved you trust in that. Hmm.
So what I did was and how you know at that moment. I made a decision I will so what I did was I took myself outside of my human self the Kemal that was just tired and alone and in pain and just like, okay something say me. I came closer than most people will ever experience in their life and you want everyone to experience death at some point, you know, no one gets out alive, but I scared of that edge and bounced
off for some reason you came back.
Yeah, right.
I'm so you're trusting that
so it's like something for all measures with what the doctors tell me. There's so many damn coincidences that saved me the fact that something made it happen. It wasn't me and so trust in that and so that's what I'm going on. That's what I'm building my life on since building my life on since that moment. I'm trusting in that because it's this so there's a reason I'm here. Yes what it is. I have no idea but I'm going to trust in that. Yes. My time was my I try. Yeah, like what?
Life gave me a little you know, you've bounced off the ice. Like my time is almost up and said, nope, you're times that up. So I come on look. He will self can't see it but come on. All the Deeper Self is good are the come out of himself is going to trust come all the Deeper Self or whatever. Whatever it was that kept him around. That's what I've been going
on. Yeah. What's the big thing to go on and it's a very profound experience. That's so many coincidences lined up that kept you alive. Any one of them out of place would have result in a very different outcome. It's kind of more like winning the lotto
On something all that has to happen to make that occur when it does feel like a tremendous synchronicity that you're respecting. There's
something you know, what's interesting though is when you're going through the pain and the and all that right? You don't think of it because it's just what the fuck yeah, and you're right it and it's like it's a level of pain. I can't even describe are you know, I was telling someone is level of pain you only read about in books.
Well, even when you're talking about the generosity of the Physicians of opiates in this climate, I think that speaks for itself. That's just not how people are thinking of
I think if oph these days but let me ask you a question because you are actually encountered a full death experience and came back from the dead. Do you have any memories of that experience? A lot of people have written and thought about death experience near-death experiences. Do do you have any
I'll tell you it's very different. It's not the Kubler-Ross type of stuff. You know, I actually studied some of it in college funny enough. I was always very fascinated by near-death experiences. So I actually took a class where I studied it. Be careful what you study.
For
example of how there is something about this subject pushing yourself to the margins and beyond that has always been an interest that you've gravitated towards and seems to find you whichever way you want to think that you gravitate towards it. It finds you one or the other but he harasses another course of that. This is a subject of Interest.
Yeah, but that was a long time ago. But okay. So as far as my experience, I'll tell you what it was. I was talking to as you know, every time
Tell someone who's done secondes. Oh, yeah. Yeah, I've experienced ego death. I'm like look, dude. I'm way more experience than you in psychedelics and let me tell you I wish it was like that but there's something when you're doing in psychedelics, no matter how deep you go. There's your Primal brain knows you're fine. It's not even your neocortex is something you know, the part of your brain that's making your organs run everything those fine, but when you're going really going it knows and it goes into a different mode, especially in trauma when you get off from me, it was bleeding out and your body.
System start to shut down and everything your Primal brain knows this is not the norm. This is some shit is happening. So I'll tell you what's running through your mind. I'll tell you so my body first burst out of a spring blood everywhere first. It was just harder. It was just fun. I'm going to the memories now, it's memories of horror. And then this Mayhem this nurse would be paying attention to me. When I've been complaining about the pain. I'm telling you I was getting worse and worse all of a sudden. She's running around screaming and everyone.
There was screaming it was little screaming and horror, but my major was just looking and seeing blood in my hands and blood and just just har and then they join me on this stretch of the Wheeling me around and now you're going to the Wheeling, you know, this one resident got to know later. He's on the illiterate with his hands. Like, you know, you would compress like a heart compression. He's doing that to like stop the sprayer brought in his hands are all covered in blood. It's almost comical life. You just put that there that there are the bad guy behind it and be funny.
Yeah, it was like that kind of it doesn't happen in real life kind of kind of moment and they really need to operating theater and there's two things. I remember very clearly one is I wanted to talk to I had to tell the surgeon something the surgeon came and she's like, okay, we're gonna we're gonna put you over gonna, you know, she's like she's saying something like I grabbed her hand and I said I said one thing I was like look fix this like don't make me have gone through this for nothing because I had gone in to fix an injury, like don't add insult to injury. I remember saying that to her don't fuck this up like fix this
And then I remember they had because they were trying to put like stud needles into put, you know IVs in you know, she could think about aesthetic and they hadn't but you know there there were about to put an oxygen they were trying to put these masks on me and I was just fighting it all off and the anesthesiologist came and I remember her because she had she what is really cool dangling earrings and she this cool glasses and she was brown. I think she was Hispanic and I don't know why but I had to tell her I was like I looked and I grabbed her hand and I said look.
I'm scared and I felt this fear. I'd never felt feel like those before it was like a pure fear and she just held my hand and I remember the moment feeling Fear And Regret of not having a being there alone and who I wish was there. I remember feeling just then just the sadness that this was happening. I'm looking around now and calm like slow-motion sadness is happening at this point. I'm like everything's fading but I remember because I'm a writer for decades I've trained myself.
To be a sharp Observer. Like I will go back and make the SEC memories and they had put anything in me at and things are starting to fade. I think the started to close and my could feel my body. Just giving up like loosening normally walking with a kind of tightness that tightness was discussed was just disappearing. There's no other way to describe it. Like when we're alive, there's a tightness with the oven and I could feel that tightness is going remember looking around thinking what a shitty messy way to go.
I actually thought that was like this is not how I thought it would be. You know, I never thought of it being a certain way but this is not how I thought it and now I bought this one everything's quiet. I'm just watching everything and everything is loosening and loosening and loosening and then I realize and I found myself wishing it wasn't this way. So I'm realizing I have no choice and then I remember thinking of this is it then this is it and I accept that and then there was just a complete loosening. I let go and
We see this happen very very fast. But you know, then there were just all sorts of freak out what's happening, but I'm just watching almost like I'm watching a movie from afar and it's I've completely loosened like the tightness of life in my body is just it's gone. And I remember for it's like I'm falling back and I falling back into like a dark dark Ocean and the only light is me and I'm just remember falling falling further further further and that was it. So that was my last memory was like a giving into an accepting that
That that this was it and falling into it.
Just want to check in with you right now. How are you feeling in your body? Are you okay still
very tight, which may be in a way. It's good. Everybody's life. You're feeling what very tight.
Uh-huh. So you're feeling that tension. It's stressful. What you're talking about is I mean the impact on me is pretty profound. So I'm wondering about Jews. It's a lot to take in it's hard to take in the story listening to you and being with you in it, sir. The impacted me some wondering about you you're feeling tense as well throughout.
Your
body. Yeah, mainly most romantic sentiment area. I think maybe that's because where I felt all the pain afterwards, you know, and that's where the whatever I was spring blood out of that my lower abdomen area. Yeah.
How do you feel looking back at yourself? That seeing your son doesn't seem real. You know, I tell
people like yeah, I I just say I always say I almost died, you know, but almost in parentheses are clothes, but remember that moment of just having to give in to the shittiness of it all and if
If this is what it was, this is what it was, but I also remember wishing it was in that way. I remember wishing there was love and there was happiness and there was not this anything but that anything would have that messing us. But if that's what I was that's what it was and giving into that maybe death is the Ultimate Surrender and you have zero choice and we all go through that. I want a we will have the Ultimate Surrender.
You have to you lose control of everything and yet to give into that
and and you say that looking back you've changed a lot from it in terms of your playfulness and you're loving this. Actually, it sounds like you're much more loving you fall in love. You're much more creative. You're much more able to surrender to God in your life. Looking back to the older self. Do you have
comparable? Well, also one thing falling in love. Look I'm alone.
I've been alone since then and I said I'm not I've just been working myself. I wanted to come back to life before I want to before you connect with someone in that way. You know, I don't want to be the patient. I want to be come all rocking life. Yes. It's for a long journey. We're pretty much in at the end of that, you know, really feel like I've come alive in a way never have never been now. Don't feel compassion with a couple Kyle. Yes, I feel that I think of him a lot and I just cover him light and I give him love.
That's all I can do.
I have to say listening to your story today. What I'll share with you is my response is I mean, everything is so riveting but I was thinking it almost feels like a before and after like before death and after death experience, I'm hearing of the old Kemal who was Hardcore pushing to the Limit refusing to accept limits. Even if it means putting yourself In Harm's Way deaths way kind of really pushing out to the extreme.
And in some ways, you know not being in any way limited by fear of death or debt at all. And then you have this death experience which in some ways has been a theme in your life, maybe because you seek out those things to push yourself or because you're fascinated by it or you find yourself somehow in situations, which are on that edge. However, it is that does seem to be a complex that runs through your life and then after that it seems like that pushing.
Up to the limit is all over some of that is obviously informed by your physical state that you've had to actually, you know, actually do what what you say in the book and a very different very practical very concrete way of love and take care of yourself and attend to yourself and not and be very caring of yourself. I'm sure physically of course particularly but really have that whole system has fallen apart. It seems to me it had to and there's a much more.
You know, even when you talk about your love of exercise creating different ways where you can do these things that are important to you and really nurture yourself. That's really jumps out at me your first part of your story seems one of pursuing interests and Explorations that feed you mentally the second part. The last year has been a very different Journey.
It's wow. That's really thank you for sharing that goes I'm learning and you're right. I think now it seems to be more just I'm just doing everything heart-based. I just you know, it's funny. I've always
On that I have a great heart, but I've now I'm just fully all in on it. That's this is the only thing I want to lead my
life that's directing you in some ways which is very feels very different and I'm also just really struck by you know, I am really struck by what you said about in the hospital but touching this anesthesiologists hands the contact this feeling there's something about Abandoned, you know, the girlfriend abandoning you about yes to be a very important thread as well as connection
while I was feeling at the time, you know at the end of
someone I loved living me, you know, and so it so it was very real. It wasn't his very real at the time. You know,
absolutely you are dealing with that play even wondered a little bit beyond that that you were dealing with it and the connection I needed to connect a firearm and of holding on to someone but I was even thinking about one of the things that is allowed you in the old days to run around the world pursuing these most extraordinary Pursuits including Army life, which I think is it magnificent.
Of grown and learned a lot from is it's hard to do that without a bit of a
disregard Rachel yourself,
sir. I think right so talk about disregard is for the greater good of Explorations perhaps but there's a bit of an abandoned thoughts. I'd be curious to hear more I would I'm curious and there's something there that strikes me that just makes me feel I'm intrigued because going to the Army is extraordinary. It's not something you wish upon your loved ones necessarily abandonments have been part of your
Tori Beyond even in I'm of course. I'm not sure how this follows you and romantic life certainly it was present at that moment. But a story of Abandonment versus connection you really reconnected with yourself after this in a very hard based way which is which seems radically different.
Yeah, and it's actually interesting abandonment was a was a big theme and it goes back to Childhood. I'm very well aware of it. But you know, I'll tell you something and it's been it's been a romantic theme as well. The last one really did me a number because I didn't I would have bet everything I had including my life that
That that
against are going to have to stop throwing that.
Oh sure. Okay, okay fair enough fair enough,
but it's making me nervous
really threw me off the balance because I loved it away like a child like an innocent child, so I didn't expect it. But you know, I'll tell you something I take full responsibility for myself because look I'm the only one who's consistent in my life. And if there's any patterns, I think it happens. I'm the only one who's running responsible for them and I've been doing that because
We look at myself at the man. I'm being versus the man. I was inside because that affects the outside right and who I'm being in plays a role in all that and you know, what? What's interesting that's come out of it. I've really got I wish I'd done this Earth had this not experienced earlier, but this inside earlier have a far greater appreciation for the man that I am the man that can love that way that used that loved. So innocently, that's beautiful and something beautiful There's Something Beautiful about the okay. So it
Workout but this beautiful and that man doing that and it's interesting even the working out right? I have no desire to ever go back to a gym and lift weights the way I used to pushing myself to the heaviest. Now for me workout is play. It's an elegant dance when I'm doing rings. I'm doing ballet and I've always loved the ballet, but I'm actually rather watching him performing ballet purely because I
exist and it sounds like you're listening to your body as opposed to
pushing through your body, but it's very true. That is very true. Learn the hard way, but even now that I'm in the shape, and I'm finished.
Very beautiful, but I push myself that again. I just want to do elegance and dance and
play.
How are you when it comes to receiving
love? I thought I was
good. You seem very loving letting someone take care of you and look
after you. I know I'm not used to it. You just very rare that someone does that for me. I'm usually the one watching out or taking care of the
person. So what you're saying is in the balance of being a giver and a nurturer and receiving you have you know, it's not so equal you're better at giving than receiving. Is that
right? That's been my that's been my experience that I've given far.
More than I received but look as I say that please like I'm Not The Only Fault there is mind. It's not every you know that I've been with wonderful human
beings. I'm not yeah, you're not we're not talking about blame. We just noticing about just general Tendencies within oneself and your experience. So I totally am with
you but I'll tell you what I really want to receive and I want to receive like so it just like in a way that I just feel loved and nurtured and adored and cared for and and just celebrate it for who I am.
Am I would like that? I deserve that. You know,
it's very beautiful. I'll tell you it reminds me actually this brings me full circle back to our first ionization just to describe a little bit my experience of it. You know, I got a call from your mutual friend introduces us and you tell me about this question and what you're about and I'm listening to it thinking sure I'll be on this podcast this sounds Fab. I'd love to talk to you about ketamine assisted Psychotherapy, which actually still now we haven't gotten to really but as I was hearing your story of why you are interested in
I felt wait a minute. You you have so much that you've been through maybe you could benefit from yourself. Maybe forget the podcast. Why don't you come work with me and you can see once again the idea that it hadn't even occurred to you really in the way I was describing it or even using a West you both. That's it's so generous of you. There is something incredibly generous about your sharing of yourself and sharing if your knowledge and it's such a beautiful way to be in the world. I have to say I do think the person who gets the short end of the straw little bit as you
And that's what I would say. Well, yeah, I would say so like, you know, it was interesting even when you and I talked I hope it's okay. I share this I shared it. Thank you full permission. You would sort of said, well I said, well, why don't we postpone them just take care of you first and you sort of you know, where humming and hawing and saying well, maybe I need to do my physical health first and I said to you which was surprised by what why why does your physical health come before your psychic Health mental health and it was interesting, you know in terms of how much care how much are you allowing yourself?
How much you know your people you're reporting to your people you're trying to serve how much they can before you, you know, I think we settled on we can do them together, but I thought that I noticed that instead of saying yeah, you know, I need this for me and later on. I'll share this with my it really something that struck me about who you are and how you go about things.
Well, you know, but that's also what saved me those those hard moments before I had that voice from within what it said those hard moments of getting up.
Day, you know look the easiest way to kill someone combat just slash across they got you know lower gut. That's what basically what had been done to save me. And so the level of pain it was like a male version of a pretty shitty C-section, you know emergency C-section my hats off to everyone who's ever been through it, please I've had been when I must tell you this
is beyond any C-section I encountered I think you're minimizing
I can say
confidently this was no C-section. This was a hell of a lot worse.
Okay, and all right. Yeah well
Get a Kamal was born in this one, you
know, it was like a real dismantling of all of those structures and a rebirth. I do think that's kind of profound and I think what we're talking about in terms of the potential psychedelics can offer but your near-death experience was of course a much more dramatic much more extreme version of some such experience. It seems like to me would you agree with
that? Yeah. I mean look, I've done enough psychedelics. I mean I was exploring Ayahuasca before
At least in the US was talking about it. And yeah, it's so yeah, like look I can I can navigate psychedelics easy. This was like, holy shit. It still seems weird. It still seems like bizarre that I actually went through it. Yeah year later. I can see this. Yeah, I can say that, you know,
and I would say further if you and I were to proceed and Percy working with ketamine the way I would want to work with it is, you know, I work with it in a very different way than the way it's prescribed for.
Major depression, which is a really great protocol and works incredibly. Well as a novel antidepressant. It would really be in very tailored doses to have you connect more with yourself with a container, which is very safe and with a relationship that is very safe to have you not be alone with this to have you attended to for you to really heal not just what you've been through and not be alone with it. But also to reconnect with yourself and be able to open up some of those pathways.
Towards letting someone be able to be attuned to you and present to you. I think that's the intersubjective space to me is incredibly valuable and as well as the way of really being able to repair some of the earliest attachment wounds we all carry so those are some of the things that so I'm just saying that just give you a little bit of a taste of the repair would be a much more gentle process. I think very much like what you have cultivated for yourself a listening to yourself a reconnecting with yourself with the
Wisdom in yourself listening to your body. There's a lot you're holding in your body particularly in your abdomen start really listening and trying to understand what your body is holding what it's been through listen and process to release some of what it's been through this traumatic experience as well as the connections before that the disregard before from some of those things which were wonderful to push you beyond anything and learned so much but to really understand the impact. These early experiences have had been for you to really go.
Further in your process of reconnecting and further in your process of listening and nurturing and nourishing yourself. You mentioned this abandonment histories and all of that is beforehand in you as well in different ways. And what's extraordinary is a lot of the wisdom that comes out of the body in the sense in sensuality is the most surprising thing. There's such a poetry to our bodies and that would be really exciting to hear about
to learn about some of which have already encountered in these dramatic ways. That would really be the process. I'd be very interested in inviting you into not only as a deeper exploration and an expansion of yourself, but I think really is a way of releasing from some of these trauma Loops that have followed you and have arrived in your life in different ways. I think that would be a real growth experience which the whole last year has already started you on this journey. I think it would just take you to a deeper place in your process to open it up.
That sounds beautiful. We will definitely talk about it after the podcast. You know, I'll tell you something. I've noticed in myself people used to ask me if I was a happy person. I would always say look, I'm solid inside. There's only one time I've ever felt like I lost the solidity was which was that break up that I end up writing about it. Love yourself. It's the only time I'll ever have lost a celebrity but I've always but it came back. I have the solidness inside. I've never thought about happiness, but what's interesting is look since then since my
perience, it's not like I'm running around, you know doing some just like focused on getting myself in a place where I'm the man I want to be so it's just me but my internal set point that solid is there but there's an openness that I can actually feel it in my chest when I walk around sometimes in my heart that I'm I'm like, I like laugh way more than I ever had in my life. In fact, I was listening to his pockets. I did I think the last episode and I was complaining to the audio engineer.
I laugh too much and then the episode I laugh way more just naturally and it's not that oh, well, I was died. I'm alive. I'm celebrating every day. It's not that it's just something like the internal set points, but set higher
I like mr. Bean.
Yeah, there's a lightness of being that wasn't there before. It's really funny. That's perfectly at there's a lightness of being maybe part of his because I go like, what's the worst thing that can happen been there?
I'm sure that's part of it, but it does seem like there's something you
Putting a finger on that is that is new that has arrived a certain lightness of being I
feel like maybe now it's end of September and like same a rubber toes are met and that this is now starting to feel as I was starting to come to life as a pain was going away and I was rebuilt and I was doing rings and I was rebuilding myself and a gent, you know in a playful way. I felt like I'm poking my head out out of the hole. I'm climbing out of I've climbed up the whole I'm looking around at the sky like blinking. Like wow, look at all this. What is this all about?
Let's find out. I life is just like okay. I have no idea what's ahead of me? I really don't and I'm perfectly okay, but it's more like really curious. What life will bring me like in a good way. Like I know like little bit me good. Like I'm I'm trusting that thing that saved me it wouldn't save me for garbage for me to experience garbage. If I am more of who I am. I think we're bringing more to me of what I meant. Does that make sense or
purpose? Yeah. You're really feeling feeling there's something here
that you just got here, and I'm just
Like what can I blinking like? Oh, let's see. What life brings. Oh, this is kind of cool. This is kind of interesting. I was very
excited. I'm gonna have to stop in a few minutes, but I want to just ask you what are you going to do on the anniversary? Do you have some ideas of how you're going to honor the day in which this
happened? No. I hope that I don't want to make it a thing because it's it's a shitty. It's given I was a shitty fucking memory. There's nothing good about it.
It's like rific
something very good occurs to me about it. What's that? Well, you really had a choice to come back and live and in some ways. It was like a birth experience. We could save as a near-death experience was also a rebirth
experience kind of funny, right? I wrote a novel called rebirth. It's like nothing any careful
about not too many people get to have two birthdays,
huh, but the birthday was very traumatic, I guess birth is traumatic, isn't it for anyone who's being born?
Porn websites that easy you don't get to do both without there being a trauma
involved. That's so interesting. You know, I was actually I wrote this can I read something I wrote to myself the other day because I couldn't sleep and sometimes I write what I do is I write poetry to myself.
Oh, I'd love to
hear like I says kamal's version of poetry. It's not like, you know, Rhyme or whatever and I'm just going to read them pulling up my phone. Please ignore me don't read stuff my portrait. I would love to just
Bear so I apologize to anyone in advance. Here it is and this was literally think of the experience and how I feel now.
After the fire burned him into a crisp and it was all said and done. He looked inside himself really looked and realized. Holy shit. That's when the Phoenix was born.
That's I'm starting to feel about it.
You're becoming a Mystic
yourself. Ha ha ha. I kind of just want to enjoy my life and play. I don't know. I don't think I've done without
I think that's apparently a comic. I think most of the mystics is that they actually get to be wise enough to be so young and free, right. It's a beautiful thing for
me. Okay, I'll take
it. Thank you for having me on the show. It's been a
pleasure God. What a pleasure. Holy.
How this this has been so good for me. And for everyone is listen, and it was you know, thank you so much for listening. I hope this is good for you, too.
If you want to learn more about, dr. Gita vaid, she teaches and practices ketamine assisted Psychotherapy in New York City and is a co-founder for the Center for Natural intelligence. She's also pretty damn awesome.
And that's another episode. I'm glad you're here. If you're enjoying this podcast, please review and rate it I'd love that and if you want to learn more just go to cure is Kamal.com.
