this week on forward jewels and I discuss independent voters, what I meant to say on Bill Maher, but didn't
Meta. Amazon Tick, Tock, Twitter, all of the tech companies this week on forward.
And we are back. I am on fired and you have a haircut. Oh, well, thank you. I appreciate it. I do get those every once in a while. He got back from La, where I did, Bill Maher. What did you think? How do I do?
I thought I was really cool. I am not an added Bill Maher Watcher, but I loved the panel discussion. So
well, that's good. I guess what I was a part of. Yes, it's very good. You know, I will say, okay, so I'll just have some fun with this, the best part.
Being there was that I really bonded with the other panelists and guests. So we were all staying in the same Hotel. I had drinks with them afterwards, really fun. And that actually has happened to me a number of times on bills show where I connected with John, McWhorter, on the show of connected, with different people who are co-panelist on the show. It used to be that bill would host a cocktail party for everyone every week where there's like a cast party and then friends
The show will just show up now. They stopped doing that with covid sad, but the vibe was really positive. There were a couple of things. I will confess to you that I wanted to get in that I wasn't able to get in.
Yeah, they work on shorter
segments, they worship or segments because it got consumed by the Oscars. Oscars. Aftermath is a lot on that. So, so I did talk about radicalization due to automation as connected to the loss of manufacturing jobs. Yep.
But I wanted to make a point about greater empathy for boys and men, as I supplementing that where it seemed to me that framing everything as like, a zero-sum game between genders is a disaster and that helping women helps men helping men helps women particularly in talking about boys and
girls. Yep. He said relationship.
Yeah, but you know the conversation didn't really take that turn because he kind of, you know,
Talked about men relatively perfunctorily in part because he knew I wanted to talk about. And so I didn't want to all of a sudden start going down like this logical chain. So I kind of Hit the automation radicalization
point and who were the other two panelists? It was Lauren Laura coda's, who was an author and
then Laura code, Sue's a CNN legal analyst and then the other person is Nicole. Pearlroth is a cybersecurity reporter for the New York Times and she had all this.
Very fascinating information about our vulnerabilities. So that's what the one on one segment was about. Both of them are great backstage.
Yeah, the two questions are you guys covered was? Do you think Merrick Garland? The Attorney General is taking too long to press criminal charges related to January 6th. The other conversation was more. So about Judge Jackson nomination for Supreme Court and everything that kind of goes along with that. But for the January 6th, hearings the house, select committee investigation is coming up. What are your predictions? Do you think?
Nothing is going to come from
that. I have low expectations. Yeah, honestly, so to the extent that something happens, I'd be positively
surprised, I completely agree. And then like, the most interesting discussion. There was that the initial election of course, is always the primary election, but specifically this coming election amongst the Republican party is going to be major and they were pressing you about, who you think is going to be running in the Republican party, but we see a lot, a lot of unenthused, of course Democrats, which was
Gust, mostly because
there's a 17-point enthusiasm. Yes, Republicans and Democrats right
now. That, that was crazy. So all eyes are gonna be on the Republican
party. And the last time the Gap was this big. I think 60 seats swung hands. Yes. No, the Democratic majority. I want to say is, I'm like, 10 seats.
I feel like for young voters to, this is very overwhelming, because if you're a registered Democrat, and you're kind of just observing what's happening happening within the Republican Party, how do you see that playing out?
Within the Republican party and people maybe who aren't Trump, loyalists, how they can kind of
make moves that that's part of this too. Is that the Democrats ran against Trump for four years? Yeah, sort of reasonable use the president and then now Republicans are running against buying in the Democrats. It's very hard for by the Democrats to run against Trump because Trump's nowhere on the ballot. Yes, people are generally very, very upset about what's going on in the country inflation, being probably the biggest day-to-day problem. So we all expect
Republicans to have a very, very good November. And the enthusiasm is much higher among Republicans than Democrats. So, you know, I think that's going to be born out mean, it's going to be very tough cycle. And so the the question really is, where does that go in 24? And I mean, yeah, like I feel like 22 is essentially written, you know, not to say I mean will still be involved in various races and 22 and
Make a difference in heck. I mean there's a primaries coming up to in June and as anyone who follows his podcast nose, like a lot of the action is in the primaries because the generals are so uncompetitive.
Yep. So for you thinking about like 20, 20 and how you coming in and type you up. We're so different for young people. First of all, you were kind, the first candidate who really talked about tech and it was also the first candidate who really you didn't seem like a party, loyalist, by any means?
Yes, and so, yes, maybe that's about biased opinion. But I think also just seeing yeah, these unenthused Democrats and seems the perfect opportunity for something new to come in something that's exciting. At the end of the day. There's a lot of ties between entertainment and politics unfortunately. And it often feels like right now that people are kind of taking a step back from all the craziness that's happened with the within the 2020 election and that something new and exciting needs to come in. So, how do you see even like with
This craziness within the Republican party and who is going to win their? How do you say a third party
coming in and eating Republican is going to again running his Trump or the exciting third party. Which one is it are both
kind of both it just more. So, so the unenthused Democrat voters. There's going to be a lot of attention on the Republican party, like we just discussed, but it's kind of the perfect entry for a third party and how you came in. So strong within the 2020 election. Basically a complete Outsider. How do you see a third party coming in with a strong impact? And honestly, getting a lot of
Young voters who we can talk about this too. There's a ton of young independent voters.
Well, so this is the question Jewels, which is so whenever anyone thinks third party what they think of as presidential. Yep, and in some ways that's logical because that's what they are familiar with. Yes, you know, they remember maybe, I don't know who they remember. I mean maybe it's Ralph Nader or Pro if they're a little bit older and that's
Because when third-party candidates run locally, you never hear about them and it's almost impossible for them to compete now. So that this is the quandary that we're in which is that you'd like third-party candidates to be able to compete in more environments, but it turns out their greatest opportunity is the presidential or national. Yes, you have enough resources where someone could potentially get a message out. That's not contained within either two parties. Now a lot of
Of folks, look at that also say well the stakes are much higher in the National because in this case, let's say if you were to run third party, you might increase the chance of trump winning something along those lines. So I agree with your premise that there's going to be something new that emerges. And the question is, is it within the Republican primary? Yeah, and I think there's a good chance that something new is going to emerge. The Republican primary. Is it enough to upset the Dynamics and defeat Trump TBD? I'm somewhat skeptical because
I think the both the prime, the Republican primary electorate in the energy of this time. We'll favored Trump significantly and I have talked to the point about Bill Maher. Asking me questions about this. I have no idea. People are considering running Republicans for present the United States and they're making the same evaluation. I'm describing, which is like, hey is, is there a path to victory in the Republican primary, the folks that I can clearly see running in the Republican?
Republican primary or people that frankly are willing to accept low prospects for victory. Yeah, perhaps someone like Chris Christie. He was like, I'm not gonna lose like, let's just do this thing. Let's just do this, you know, likely is something like that going to run totally the, the major question is like, will there be a figure like around a Santa store? Larry Hogan, who was much more political Capital to both compete against Trump, but also more to lose.
Yeah, will there be a new younger figure? Like a will heard who we had on the podcast? So that's variable one. Is that will there be new figure from within the Republican primary field? Number two is, will there be a Democratic primary? And if so, will there be someone new that emerges there? And then number three is like maybe they come from outside of the two parties as an independent via the forward party or a Unity ticket. One of the fun things about being.
Andrew Yang during this time. Is that, is that to the extent that there's anyone in any of these categories, they're interested in talking to me because they think I can help that they are going to help with young people in particular. Yeah, for sure. They know, I have very, very relevant experience. Probably more relevant than just about anyone else Audrey because like, I did on one of the few people who has been through a version of this process. Yeah, so it's been fun because I talked to them and I get a sense of them. Some of them. I like a
And are genuine to me, Patriots are someone who just want to do something positive when I was Coy. When Bill asked, it's like, oh snap. Like how many of these people that I talk to that actually like I'm allowed to
divulge. Yeah. They were really trying to pick at you. Like let us
know the answer is, you know, I like, I guess, you know, I can't divulge any of them because you know, like none of them have made any plans and even to me is not like they tell me like, hey, I'm doing this thing like that. They'll say
I'm like, I'm seriously considering social, you know, what are you necessarily? Nothing confirmed 100%. Yeah. Anyway, right now to me, the major variables, whether Joe decides to run for president again, and whether there is a Democratic primary Kamala, certainly does not clear the field. So the things I'm hearing from people or that that Joe apparently wants to run again. So there's that there are people around him that are less.
Enthusiastic, but there are also some some signs of health issues that we say that that might make it such that for sure, necessarily going to run that. That's mean. Let me say on the record. I hope that Joe does not run. Again. I think I think he may choose to run again because he feels he's the only one that can defeat Trump. If Trump becomes the Republican nominee. I think the odds of Joe running again go up because Joe will say like, I'm the only one can defeat.
Trump I've done it once but I just don't think it's good for the country for for us to have an 82 year old president being sworn in and if you do have an 82 year old president being sworn in then this time, you know, like we should frankly expect him not to complete his term and to have a vice president who were essentially electing president, which is that really the play mean maybe mean if there was a right but you never ideal. Yeah, and and then and this is a tough thing to say out loud, but it's like it'd be very
Hard for Joe to be like, hey, I'm going to run again and my vice president pick is not going to become a Harris because I can sense that a lot of you are concerned about her being the next president. So it's very hard for me to make a change there. But it is also the case that Kamala polls poorly and I think if that were the ticket, then people would look and say, we're essentially electing Kamala.
DeSantis is interesting because what I observe on social media, he seems to have a similar like rallying behind him, not to the
Stent of trump. There's like a on a smaller scale a similar energy. No, not by, no means as kind of toxic as the Trump area, but see someone who if was running against Trump, I would see be like, the strongest Prospect. Do you think Prospect? Yeah, do you think he's going to move forward that if we allowed people predict he will run against Trump. Why would you think he
wouldn't one? I heard he was telling donors a little while ago, that he's not going to run against Trump so I could be the change his mind. Yes, you know, straight up answer.
That's a pretty straight up, answer. Yeah.
The other thing is you look at it just from a risk-reward. Iran's pretty young. Yes, if he sits this one out then he still The Heir Apparent coming in next time and then he'd be, you know, the Savior and you can wait a cycle, you know, it's like his downsides to running against Trump are really potentially significant because then it's a war for the base. Trump is excellent at painting someone in a negative light.
So it's just the risk-reward doesn't seem to work.
Though, I will quote a republican that I respect and I agree with. He said that anyone who says that they won't run against Trump shouldn't ever be president because if you ever want to be president, then you're not as like calculating about it. You just like look, I think country needs me. I'm ready to go. Let's do it. Yeah, instead of being a political calculation, be like, yeah. I'll sit this one out because, you know, I don't want to go to war with Trump. I'd like to that perspective.
Yeah, we that's that's very interesting
actually, but but you know,
We're talking about politicians. Like they think like that not mean, they do think very much in terms of their political fortunes. I think the smart political thing for Ron to do is to sit it out.
Also something with the Bill Maher conversation, that I found really interesting because they were such a short segments. You didn't get really to elaborate on but you guys were talking. Yeah. Yes. I know. No, but like this was so interesting. So, you guys were talking about how like judge Jack Jackson was under a ton of scrutiny for defending people, but she was a public defender, you know, she was a setup assign these things, and you were talking about how America is. So, so polarized, you're just on a team and I really want to talk about that more because
The rule goes against your team. You ignore it or write it off. And I want to come to elaborate on that because I think there's a huge discussion there, amongst young people and independent politics regarding especially social media today, and how it just intensifies, every aspect of human nature. And that's a huge aspect of human nature that we're seeing unfold over the past few years.
Oh, yeah, I think
I think people who are arguing for principle of the rule of law. Like, I just, you know, more and more getting drowned out by people who, look at that stuff and be like, wait a minute, you know, it's like lets everyone seems more hypocritical nowadays, you know, it's like, tougher and tougher. I get that. I think for young people to when I was campaigning for president, would say this young people would be like, look like we've set your generation up with a bill of goods. And if I were you, I'd be very angry or very sad and I apologize on behalf of
It came before you go. We're leaving him such an awful mess. So if that's young people's experience, which I think is pretty fair and then be like, hey, but follow the rules. It's like there's a little bit like, well, should I be following these rules? You speaketh of because, you know, like that. You haven't exactly set us up for good things. And there's like this very, very thin.
Network of Institutions trying to keep like the rules in place and then we can see the rules are being broken all around us. I mean, I could use the person that popped into my mind was actually crypto first thing. Probably pretty good group. Does this Breaking All the Rules and various ways? And you look at it and be like, well, wait a minute, like, you know, like what do we like? What does this mean? What do we do here?
So I think it's one reason why a third party politics would be so interesting to young people. I think I saw something where 70% don't really like either the Democratic or the Republican party. Now, it could be that this group may just not be very into parties in general. But I believe that there is a massive need to be filled their both the Democratic and Republican party are just really old and the tooth kind of like, you know, agent establishment brands.
Like I'd love for there to be like this new fresh awesome type of politics that includes young people, and they feel like they're a part of, it can take ownership of that. Maybe gets us away from this, like, you know, this Tit for Tat back and forth. I'm not even back and forth. You know, my sense of things are on young people. You could, I should ask you. This is that. I don't think that that folks who have let's say, liberal, or Progressive views are necessarily like clashing, with like their counterparts.
A part in the other side on a daily basis. I think it's more of that. There's like this consistent set of messaging that goes in a particular
direction. It's kind of own worlds.
But yeah, you got like an echo chamber going. Yes, and then there are people who are within that Echo chamber that are like, you know, like maybe I don't agree with like that or maybe we like for sure little far like a little, like that's my sense that, you know, that there are a lot of people just don't feel
included. So yeah, as of 2009 team, just over a third of gen Z would consider themselves to be
We independent and there was there was about 10 to 12 percent that just young didn't say they were independent or democrat or republican. But a big thing that comes towards young. People who do talk about independent Politics on social media is a lot of a big left-wing term. Is this enlightened Centrist term and always aligning. Yeah. Identify as an independent with being a Centrist for the on the record. Can you explain the difference there?
Yeah, I think.
Independent to me is like look, I don't fall within party Orthodoxy. Yes, like these policies. Centrist is like a bit more, kind of wishy-washy, the with like whatever Direction you want to take. I would split it down the middle and Independence. Come in all shapes and sizes, and beliefs, and everything else. So imagining that all independence are Centrist or moderates. I don't think it's correct. I work with a Greek or berry berry left like very it was a very, very left.
Who consider themselves Independence? I know a lot of Libertarians are considering themselves Independents who are, you know, probably you think on the other side of the Spectrum, which I think the spectrum is overblown. So, you know, even me it's like, you know, it was interesting about me to jewels that like I had a vision that would be a significant departure from the way we're doing things. And some people thought was like, oh like it seems awfully Quantico Progressive even though I never liked outright said that. Yeah, like how you know, it's like like would it help?
People who don't have a lot. Yes, like, you know my mind that's kind of the goal. But I've concluded that you're not going to be able to get those things done. And this is something I've thought a fair amount about because you know, a lot of friends who are in the like what you'd consider the left lane that Progressive Camp. Yep, and what they do and in my opinion were aligned on our desires for a lot of good things to happen. Now, their plan is to take over the Democratic party and then like making all these good things.
Ben and I like I see two massive problems with that plan. Number one, I don't think taking over the Democratic party is actually in the cards because there's like this massive and Trend set of interest that are going to want to keep the Democratic party and a particular Lane and you know, the media is part of the rest of it. So that's tough. You can probably figure out a lot of corruption baked in. Honestly, a lot of entrenched interests. And the second thing is, I don't think the Democratic party is going to be in position to be able to make big things happen for
For quite some time, you know, like you have to see right. Now. This is the high water. Mark, a democratic power for at least a while, you know, very, very lucky to get a 50-50 split. The Senate turns out. So, you know, like so you got like two massive problems. If you're trying to make things happen, big things happen. There are other structural problems to like, now you have these cascading deficits and inflation is out of control. And some of the things you want to do like would require spending money which, you know, like,
I'm much more open to than like, you know, like a lot of folks, so that there are all these structural problems. And so to me, like the smart thing to do at this point would be to try and reorient American politics and have like, not this two-party system that I do not think will deliver for anyone. The only thing is going to deliver is is madness.
Yeah, we're seeing that.
So that that's like the but I mean, anyone who takes a look at, you know, my latest book mean, you know, the
The goals I have are the same as they've been, I think now like I see the path as being very different politically than I would have imagined it. And for me, this is like like learning and adaptation, you know.
Yeah. Well, this was like fascinating to me. It was also around 2018. A study by Pew. Research. Is that basically there's just a movement from gen Z, Democrats and Republicans coming to a more unified stance on politics. So even on issues like,
52% of gen Z Republicans want the government to be more involved in solving social issues, compared to only 23 percent of Boomers within the Republican party. So even just within the party, there's these crazy generational differences. Also, only 18% of gen Z Republicans. Believe that humans are not intensifying climate change. While it was 42 percent of Boomers. For example, just these crazy differences within the party that it does feel more like these generational changes. Why like these gen Z
People in the Republican Party urgency people in the Democratic party, aren't even aligning on the same things. Like you said, actually on Bill Maher. It's more. So just a team people. A lot of the times can't even break down. What does this party stand for anymore? It's truly just an ideology at this point and it's just an energy that you flock to that causes a ton of polarization online because as soon as you hear Democrat, or as soon as you hear Republican, you are just boxing that person into a certain energy and just not
At all. Like considering what they're saying and when in reality there's a very unified stance on the
issues. Yeah, that's so profound. Where you talk to Young Republic in, they want to help fight climate change and make positive social things happen, or okay with you. Having the government be a part of that. So if you can try and build those bridges in many common ground, as opposed to just getting separated into these tribes, then you can make real progress. That's why the reorientation is so important. Young people join us. Make it
Let's make it happen. So that the thing that I commented to someone earlier is that at this point, no matter what your for like, this system is not going to give it to you. You know what I mean? Like if again, unless it's Madness. So serious. So I but I think for young people to participate in the reorganization where politics is a must like if you're a young person listening to this, do you really think that it's going to be the Democratic party? The Republican party is going to like solve. Some of these problems are getting worse and worse and have been for decades under their watch.
The fact is that neither party pays a real long-term meaningful price for either the problems getting worse or even losing a race because it just the ball goes back and forth between the two of
them. Polarization is just busy work.
You need genuine competition. You need more third parties. And you've been conditioned. Everyone's been conditioned be like a third parties can't work. And then you ask yourself. Well, why is that? It's all because the two parties shut them out of every major, you know, like Pole or race.
Ice in these districts. So we have to evolve to rank Choice voting and non-partisan open primaries. Give everyone a shot new parties would emerge young. People would have a better chance at leadership. It'd be great.
Yeah, because you also point out the UK has five parties. Germany. Has seven parties, Sweden has eight parties. And so, if one party goes crazy, let's say whether it's either Republicans, Or democrats. It's not an existential threat to the entire system. And I think it's just crazy. We don't like you've definitely touched on it.
For but we don't talk about enough how even George Washington was considered an independent and actively spoke against the two party system. That's rarely ever talked about in schools and just that point. Like I'm like that's epic and the fact that we don't talk about that Foundation that was set for the country and how it completely
went the opposite direction. Yeah, that's true.
You know, another great American President, Abraham, Lincoln won the White House with thirty nine point, eight percent of the vote in a for candidate race. He was essentially a third-party candidate. Yep. On the brand new Republican party that had just materialized as a northern anti-slavery party. So when you think about, like, in our nation's history, some of our greatest leaders, like they wouldn't be like Democrat, Republican end when he ran for office. Again. He had a Unity ticket where he was.
Public in president presidential candidate and the vice president was a Democrat. Yes. So, you know, can you imagine these things happening today? Like like the greatest leaders in the country's history would be shocked at where we are right now
and it's also like Trump really took over the term, the silent majority during 2020. He which was originally coined by Richard Nixon, but Trump kind of made it seem more aligned with the Republican Party the real silent majority to me. Yes, our young Independence that takes up
a huge margin of the voters and young people. And those, these are the people who don't feel like they can speak up a lot online. Because what does well, in algorithms are these extreme takes that provoke extreme emotions whether they are good or bad and kind of you know, this Middle Ground take isn't what algorithms are. It's not feeding into them.
That's one reason why you're so important Jewels. Thank you. All these plugs all
these plugs. But to me, it's just what we see.
Mine is kids are online more hours per day than their honestly conversing with people in person. And so what the party seemed like online the Democratic party worries that a line and you don't have to agree or kind of woke and idealist. And the Republican party is often seems like conspiracy theorist and often Devil's Advocates. So they the Republican Party online the extremists often, like whatever. The left is saying will oppose it completely, no matter how much it aligns with them, because in the real
Leti. Like I was saying earlier, we see, a more unified stance, on politics, amongst young people. It's just not being represented online. But when that's all, you're being fed through the algorithms, it can seem like everyone's on these extreme sides, but it's a small percent of Voters that are truly on the extreme. So it's been evident. Like we said, George Washington made it obvious that he didn't believe in a two-party system and social media, and these algorithms just further intensify again, what happens in human nature and it's just clear.
Now, that this two party system is not what we need at all. And it's just how we're avoiding everything that we need to get done because of this bickering back and forth. Like I said a few minutes ago, it's just feels like busy work. We're not actually talking about things we need to get done because just this tribalism back and forth.
Yeah, I completely agree and let me say to you know, like
I like some of the things that various Democrats have proposed in Congress. Yes, has period. You know, if you ask me who I line up with more like right now, the Republican party doesn't even have a platform last, I checked. But this systems really like it's not working for anybody. So that's one of the real lessons that I've taken from this past period of time. And I do think we're in the final.
Never. It is seven months of, you know, seven months of of Democrats having control of government mean, nothing's going to get done starting November and our institutional trust. And credibility is just, you know, dropping dropping dropping its, it's fun. Trying to build the next generation of institution. Sometimes mean, you know, it's like I'm, I'm someone who I'm saddened by the
State of the country in the state of the world, but now like it's great being able to work with people like you, you know, try and give give folks a home.
I also feel just again because what we see online, a lot of young people feel like it's easy to tune out of the current political system because it feels like it doesn't suit you or doesn't support you. Things like open primaries are an obvious thing in the short term and also the long-term to continue to root for especially for young voters, who are these Independents? Like what are things like Assad?
Open primaries and aside, from it that you can actively pushing for,
right choice. Voting would be the biggest win, guess it's like anti-extremism change in voting. It also completely, spoiler effect. The entire, like, you're going to ruin, it's like, well, just it's all right, choice voting, if you really care. And the fact is most people of both parties, Democrats and Republicans don't like competition. It's one reason why 90 percent of seats are now gerrymandered to be uncompetitive. So then you say, hey ranked Choice voting and allows New Perspectives to emerge, like no one's, I co-signed.
Up. I mean people are like sign me up but Democrats and Republicans in power, not like sign me up because if you're an elected official that one in a given system, you don't want the system to change. If you're a consultant. It's like, oh, this introduces uncertainty. So this is up for two people, like the folks listening to say, look, ranked Choice, voting is a win. It's a win for everyone. It's well, it's a win for the public. The only people that had not a win for our
extremists. Exactly. Well, we don't want them to win anymore. They've had their time.
Past few decades.
This all kind of ties into something that the Washington Post actually covered last week regarding meta Facebook, paid a GOP, firm to demean Tick-Tock.
So we went after you Jules.
Yeah. Yeah, they went after me. Honestly. It's okay. And we can talk about that but it's interesting because Mark Zuckerberg was often like her teach by The Washington Post throughout this article to it's like what side is he on? He donated to attempt a ton of democratic
politician, you democratic
As you probably can but reality is who knows. Most people don't really know at the end of the
day, Mark Zuckerberg is What's called the Zuckerberg
Ian. Yeah. Yeah. For himself. For sure, is a better himself.
You know, I met a
booster. Yeah. So Facebook parent company meta is paying one of the biggest Republican consulting. Firms in the country called targeted Victory to orchestrate. A nationwide campaign seeking to turn the public against Tick-Tock, and this was actually pretty crazy work by
Hi, Taylor Lorenz was a lot of journalists today aren't really, actually on the platform or their brows it. This is something she had to be on the platform often to really identify. So, it was months ago. She realized that in like local newspapers that met both. She didn't know was met at the time, but there were these stories planted about Tick Tock regarding trends. Like slap, a teacher Trend in schools were literally being shut down because of these Trends in these scares and she realized like this is not a trend on Tick Tock. There was, maybe one viral video.
That doesn't constitute renders, not thousands of videos with it. So she started following this and was able to figure out that just talking to local newspapers and also Meadow was planting like, op-eds with talk, targeted Victory about the platform and mostly because Tick Tock, is met his biggest competitor. We've talked about in past podcasts that they entire gen Z demographic. Is moving over to that platform. Instagram recently lost active users for the first time ever. Mostly Jen's ears and
Kind of just yet Zuckerberg going to Great Lengths in order to put that on top, has been crazy.
Yeah, that's really messed up
a little bit and Taylor's talk about you see this a lot in politics, but never before really in the social media realm with business. So
if I had won the white house, I was going to go to war with Zuckerberg truly. Because what's good for Facebook. I'm going to call the
Facebook. Oh, yeah, don't give him that
respect.
What's good for Facebook is not good for America. It's not good for Humanity. Yes, for sanity. So I spoke to a political scientist Barbara Walter few weeks ago on the podcast. And she said that Facebook is essentially - correlated with functioning democracy around the world. I'm sure you saw that where it's like, if Facebook shows up in a country then they backslide
direct correlation
democracy. So
so I was going to go to war with Zuckerberg and the Gang. They don't have any interest at heart except for metas profitability and Zuckerberg increasingly dissociated view of the future for sure. Where I've heard that he just hangs out in the meadow verse more than he hangs on the real world and look, you know, like I'm as big a fan of aspect of virtual worlds.
Anyone else but, you know, I'm going to suggest that that's probably not healthy. So so I hope they pay a price for this. But the problem is here. I mean, there's so many problems, but
here. Yeah, I was gonna say, we could talk about this for two hours. So it's like, what?
Price could met a Facebook Zuckerberg pay like, you would need a functioning government? Yeah, you know, you need someone to be like, okay, like this is beyond the pale. It sounds like taylor-ann's really freaking hunted. This stuff
down to. Yeah, it crazy. Good story.
Seriously? Yeah, nice journalism. Ya.
So.
Number one, people would be like, oh, I want you to stop using them. It's like, well, you know, these social media platforms are essentially raindrops. Yes. I know personally. I'm not against you abandoning them, honestly. Everybody. So view, you know, like you you log off mean that that's fine, but it's unrealistic for a lot of people, some realistic for any business because you have to try and reach people. So that's not a thing. And then you'd be like government action.
Our government when they do bring the social media leaders in the yellow, them about things that are unrelated to, you know, that they're kind of anti-competitive practices and their quasi monopolies. So so the fact is Facebook and play fast and loose in this way, and we've seen it over and over again, they'll just keep on doing things that are beyond the pale and they don't pay meaningful, price,
completely. And so, their biggest thing was that employees within the firm, targeted Victory.
Worked out to the extent. There is a price being paid right now. What?
Is that a lot of cool people don't want to work at Facebook
anymore. That is true. That is true. Very true. And so their biggest target during these articles was mostly. So these Trends kind of just painting Tick-Tock as, you know, about bad player in the game because they often feel like they get unfair press. And in regards to as talking right now, like yeah, there's there definitely is kind of a focus on meta Facebook, Instagram, and these social media conversations, especially regarding youth well-being.
They're definitely a main target amongst Congress and everyone. So they kind of want to paint someone else in a different light and you see lately Zuckerberg has been making a lot of Independent Media appearances, which he had never ever done before. He's been on very odd, very like calculated. It's all it's been like in the past two months, three or four of them back. And before never has he ever, he would get on like, Good Morning America here and there. But obviously, it's super high production, everything and these were pretty high produced as well. The Lux Freeman claimed that there was no, like sensor.
During beforehand, that they didn't look over the questions or anything like that, but I will say. So their focus in regards to criticizing Tick-Tock was Regard in regards to China and selling a lot of these kids data and all of that being obtained by China. What was interesting to me in actually did a video on this week and a half ago, and I don't know how this got pushed on The Tick-Tock platform. So it was me criticizing Tick-Tock on The Tick Tock platform, which sounds contradictory, but you can go into why did that and
Sitting around like 800k views right now. And the video was about how kids Focus today much in part due to all social media. But tick-tocks, the Holy Grail of this is just completely declining and you actually had an interview with author of stolen Focus, which is really good. And I suggest people go listen to that too. But the biggest problem really is. Yeah, the immediate short-term effect of tick tock is this complete stolen focus. And this device you have in your hand is basically a
Box of choice device or whatever you're doing. You feel like something can be more stimulating to you on an app like Tick-Tock because it is so well, curated to you and it's bottomless feed unlike any other platform before. That feed is completely bottomless, but let's say and it's really rewiring kids brains and I could go on about this for an hour. That's the real problem. But let's say take takut shut down. These other platforms were still in the attention economy and meta is trying to copy that with reels and YouTube is trying to copy. That was
That's the real immediate problem and all these platforms are trying to do the same thing and then some with virtual reality and everything like that. So yeah, they're going to this data angle, but it's clear. I mean, obviously it's for business intentions. But
yeah, be one thing if Facebook was all of a sudden during all of these, like, massive remediation measures themselves, yes, but they're not. No, not at all.
Not at all. And then Wall Street Journal.
Actually posted a piece on Saturday now was Tick Tock, brain explained by some kids seem hooked on social video feeds. It was going into a lot of what I talked about in the video as well, and I just want to read this intro because I think it's really powerful. So it's like, remember the good old days when kids just watch YouTube all day? Now that they've been John 15, s tick-tocks. Those YouTube clips seem like PBS documentaries. Many parents. Tell me their kids can't suits it through feature-length films anymore because to them movies feel painfully slow.
Others have observed, their kids struggling to focus on homework and reading a book forget about it. What is happening to kids brains and then goes into like the ADHD conversations. And this article is also super fascinating on the topic. I don't think I got worried about this Facebook medical coverage about demeaning Tick-Tock because the app puts a lot of focus then back on meta and there are a lot of things to critique about Tick-Tock. And I noticed on my video then that was getting a lot of traction and response that a lot of positive response of kid.
It kids being like, I'm getting off this app for today. This was like a reality check and it's true. I'm deleting this app for the week. I need a break, but then I started to see comments after this article came out a few days after it, like, oh, was this planted by meta or something? So then it kind of also takes responsibility again, back off of tick-tock. When in reality, there needs to be a lot of discussion about how it's rewiring kids brains, and we need kids to be able to focus in order to make change in the future. And like, you know, people need to have like a long-term
Focus, Envision, a lot of the times. Now, when you say in the future, I want this to happen, whether it's within change or like independent politics. A lot of people are like, oh, like next year. No. Like the future can be like a five to ten year timeline. And like you have to work continuously at something to be able to actually achieve it and we're seeing a lot of that being lost within kids right now.
Yeah. Someone said to me this week, that they think that it's going to be up to Gen X, to fix, all these Tech issues and the argument was that Jenna,
X, actually remember the time before the technology, and then remember the time after technology, for sure. And, and so, we're not luddites, but we actually do remember the time before and I said, wow, and I thought of the Gen xers, I know who running for office, it's bad though, you know? Like that. There, there are other societies that have taken much more protective measures, but here in the US, we have so little faith in government that we just throw any restriction.
That's freedom of speech. Let's say here's an example. Something I would
recommend. Yes. Let's hear it,
please that I would say. Hey if you're under 18, your social media apps don't work between 11 p.m. And 7 a.m. For sure. Eight hours that
it. Yeah, because China is doing that and it's like a collective experience because right now in kids, if you're a parent and you tell your kid, oh, you can't have your phone after 9:00 p.m. There's this, like, fomo feeling
fear of missing out. No. Yes,
you're like, yeah. I am I missing something. What
My friends doing Social Media stuff is breaking out left and right like breaking news and it is like a fear of missing out. I I feel that at the age of 24, like at like, I'm looking at you. Yeah,
wait, wait. Wait, what do you say, we all feel that because yeah, standing in line is like, oh, what's going on in the world? Yeah. It's
it's a very exhilarating collective experience. When like, yeah, news is breaking even this morning and we can talk about, like, Elon Musk and Twitter.
Is cool to see everyone's reactions in time and like how shocking it was and it's maybe not as stimulating if you're a day or two late like stuff like that. It can feel like you're missing out on especially in the world's whirring where you kind of like want to hop on be knowing things like as they're happening and a lot of people are kind of critiquing. Oh well take talks like inserting 10-minute videos onto their feeds. Those. I've seen people try to do those. They're not doing well. The platform is not built for 10 minute videos.
It's crazy. So to the point of what you're saying. Yeah the hours and we've discussed this before, but I think it's really important for everyone to know because a lot of people write it off because o China's doing it China's just as intimidated by their tech companies as the u.s. Is about our big tech
companies. That's one of the tough things to it's like yeah, like China does a very very bad things. Yes, but just because trying to make the policy decision doesn't automatically mean it's like the wrong one. Exactly. You know, it's like
Let's say they, you know, 20% of them, right, 80% of wrong. You'd still look at and be like well, which one is this? Because I
did coverage on like the four things that China is doing for kids on Dorian, which is tick-tocks equivalent in the country. People just come like wrote it off because it's China. There's like, oh, I'm not doing that. Like and just to quickly add for everyone else, the four things that China is doing for kids. So yeah, so it's from 10 p.m. To 6 a.m. Kids under 16. It's not a teen or
Allowed on the app. So just like just don't have access to the app. Every I think it's like 15 to 20 videos. There's a 5 to 10 second pause, kind of get them out of that hypnosis. That is so easy to get into on Tick-Tock. Of course, like, duh, if you're on the app, for more than 40 minutes, straight kicks you off. I don't know the duration for how long it takes you off, but you get kicked off that seems reasonable 40 minutes. Straight on a social media app, not really a need. And the other thing is, so in America that
Rhythm is very catered to your subconscious mind and your interest anything you're giving watch time to whether it's good or bad. The algorithm just really caters to exactly what you give wash time to and China. Other. Infiltrating that a little bit, not in a bad way, but two kids under 16, I'm not sure how it is for adults. They're pushing more edutainment, stem content. So, you know, fun, learning contexts equations. Yeah. And right now, on tick-tocking the Wall Street Journal actually did a video series on this site.
A year or two ago. They made like a couple thousand bots on the app and kind of gave them different interests and assign them those interest. And when videos will come up with those certain hashtags, would watch those videos longer someone one of the bond, not someone one of the Bots. They aren't people yet. One of the Bots had like an interest of depression and like sadness, after just like 45 minutes, the algorithm figured it out. And like, every two videos,
Were like a depressing video. That's like, with some kids are living in. I remember when I was on Tumblr and middle school. So dramatic. My Tumblr name was like, finding color in this black and white world.
Something like that. Where young
Jewels? Yeah, like, no reason to be sad, but Tumblr, like anyone who's on that app knows that it was the first app to really like romanticize mental illness and like really made kids like put it on themselves and but it was of course not to
The extent of tick-tock of there. Wasn't a crazy algorithm is just based on who you followed and like what you curated yourself. Take. Tasha is feeding you this content Non-Stop and I can't imagine so many kids at that when you're exploring your identity and like, you know, sad boy hours just being dramatic. Like you could have nothing wrong in your life and you just, yeah, exploring that side of life and these algorithms can just like completely rewire your brain to make you believe a certain thing. It's insane.
Well Jules, I'm so glad that you're
Into these issues. Because for a lot of older people to talk is a bit of a
mystery. Oh, for its, for sure. Definitely a mystery, but it's crazy that I think the average time spent on it is like three to four hours a day for kids. That's a huge chunk of your day.
It is Hypnotic II. Mean, I don't spend time.
I was here. Are you spending?
Yes, tick tock, tick tock videos because my team was like, oh, this would be good idea.
Yeah, it's where people
are. Yeah, so I've done it. So I
I watched enough videos to be like, wow, this is well. So I remember like Twitter Vines over and over again, is what I think of them, and it is a notic. I'm proud to say. I have not actually spent more than, you know, five minutes on the hook. Wow, that's impressive. Thank you. Thank you for president the hypnosis. Yes. Yes. The kind of leadership, you
know, but it's crazy and exciting.
Contradiction contradicting. Oh, why'd you post things like video about? Yeah on Tick. Tock is where kids are and there is no potential reach like that app. And I advise everyone go watch that video and see the comment section like everyone just like like I needed to see this on this app. There's no other way people probably seen that. Unless it was you too smart. Yeah. I mean, it can seem contradiction contradicting at face value, but it's just, it was just crazy to see how people were reacting.
Acting to it too. And talking about their own experience with, they were used to love watching documentaries. And now they can't even get through a movie, or a TV show, without checking their phone, every five minutes, like, just this weird, like, subconscious pool to just like swipe a few times on
ticket fast. And this is something, you know, I make me sound a little bit like a fuddy-duddy, but I'm kind of grateful. I came of age when I did. No. Yeah, and then now that all this stuff is come online, you know, like a dad and chilling. Yes.
No. No, I think that's important because even me
Social media didn't come around till middle school. And so, I do still feel like I remember life before then, and yet, like, even like my Millennial aged friends, like they decently know what life was like, before them. They were on my MySpace, but it's just completely different type of social media and it's just scary because kids don't know anything else now. And yeah and there's just this crazy digital footprint. You see a lot of family channels now. And these kids who are being forced to have their identity on social.
Media even, it's just like when my mom post pictures of me, sometimes I'm like, Mom, like, ask me like this is like online. Like it's used to seem like chill and only your friends and family could see it, but it all adds up. I'm Jules is famous now. Oh, no, no, not to that extent, but like, come on. Like there's this whole stereotype, everyone, rather protect. No. No, it's a whole stereotype of like the ugliest pictures of you are on your parents Facebook. Like that's where they live all the time, but it adds up, and we're already seeing this compound.
Digital footprint of people, we've seen it in the past with cancel, cancel culture for years back, but kids are going to have like yes stuff from there. Like five years old online that their parents posting kids in like the bath and all this. I'm like, what are you doing? Like, this is not. Okay, like this is the internet and this is accessible to everyone and it's crazy.
Wow, you really fired up Jules. I still take a shot at fixing this stuff from please. No, I mean, has to emanate from DC. In my
opinion. Well, this was the first time Biden addressed. It really stayed the, his State of the Union Address. He talked about social media and youth well-being. His Focus was a lot on advertisements which goes hand-in-hand data course. Date is important in this. But, you know, data is not like a sexy thing that people like to talk about. Like,
When you hear that, there's kind of just like a disconnect you to tune out and you're like, okay, what does that even mean? That seems like such a large conversation and in reality? Yeah. He talked about advertising but also people kids don't really have buying power. You see, advertisements on Nickelodeon growing up. You don't have a card. You can't really make moves on
that. It's part of the problem, but it does. Yeah. The guts of it. I get
it. And the immediate clear situation that's hitting kids in mental health. It's
pretty obviously inching in this direction. Nice job. Joe.
Yeah, no. No. Yeah, for sure. Yeah. No. I was like really pleased to hear. That was even a conversation. It was very prominent throughout
that say they fight so hard about any sentence and that's a the union really? Yeah. Yeah. All know that probably super calculated before. So it's the most valuable real estate where that like people are fighting fighting fighting to get a line, a sentence. And so anything that makes it in crowded out, something else. It's actually a very positive
sign.
Well, kind of back to the stew with this article and how people were saying this is often something that's done within politics, kind of these planting of the seed articles. What has your experience been? They're kind of just like, I feel like this was very interesting to young people to really see. Wow. Like this platform. I'm on all the time that has a huge impact on my life is being targeted by this other platform. I'm on all the time. I think kind of not true. That's not trivial by any means. But these things that are collect.
Again, Collective experiences, help people really actualize that same action on a bigger scale. So like with in politics, how have you seen that
play? Did remind me of politics? Yes. We're so candidates and campaigns plant negative stories about opponents all the time. Yeah. So in a way, it's like is the fact that Facebook then turn to Republican something to play. These are the stories by take dragon slaying. I guess they that almost makes
Make sense, you know, the fact that he could get traced back to them. I mean, this is like a worst case scenario for them. It's like, oh no, we don't want to get caught. Yeah, but it's definitely commonplace in politics. I'd imagine it's not uncommon in business. If you have a few big players, like, are they playing mean against each other? Sure. I met Richard Branson a little while ago and he was telling stories about how like the major when he started, you know, Virgin Airlines.
That like there aren't many airlines and the UK and like the other airlines were doing like crazy stuff to stop him, really, but it was worth. It played a negative stories. It was like just lay all sorts of we go. It was just brutal stuff. So, you know, I mean business is very tough sport, but the fact that I think part of this story that's like, if I think the intermediary that
Facebook uses part of the problem. It's like hiring a republican firm to trash. It just leaves Tick-Tock of these are the very, very bad
taste. It's fascinating to me feel like I could just, like, look into this stuff for hours. But on another note was social media. Today. We're recording on Monday. I'm not sure when this dropping probably Thursday, but it was announced that Elon Musk bought nine point two percent of shares in Twitter. So, a few weeks ago, a big tweet that he put out and my laptop died. So I can't read.
It word for word, but was at asking about Twitter's relationship with freedom of speech and if people feel like they are able to utilize their right there and a good way. I think it was. People said no, like 70% of people believe that Twitter does not super line was freedom of speech and only 30% agreed was so. And then you on was talking to people on Twitter again about, oh, do we need a new social media platform? He that would be a pretty insane move. I think.
Burrowing even take talking about I think I was like we are at our Max. We social media platforms. Like what void is there to fill? Yes. Freedom of speech is like my
void that the next social media platform trillion dollar idea from Andrew. Yeah.
Oh gosh. Don't give the you're getting drunk at the startups. Your idea
tick.
Like three second
videos.
Jesus. No, but no, but
yeah,
I know. But like, even yeah, platform coming. That kind of, you know, extra help sick. People exercise freedom of speech more. If it's the same, exact Devil is a total dud. Yes, it's a total dud and like people knew that from the start. Of course, you know, Trump loyalists were running to the platform and within like a week or something people just stopped you like
User base. When
have you go into freaking empty bar? Do you like stay there? You gonna? Yeah, are you like turn around and
leave? Okay. It's like you're getting tired of like maybe it was a good moment. People be like, wow. This is kind of insane of us. Let's move back to where everyone else is. It's more fun Collective experiences or more fun and with like people outside of this Echo chamber, so maybe it was a good moment. Who knows but yeah like even
Ilan, creating another platform and he's someone who comes no. No, he's
not. He just put out a
question. Yeah, so there's no way. But yeah, there's no way that's happening. And then God, I would've been a dumb move, but this is super interesting. I just find it fascinating. I want to hear your take as well.
You know. I met Elon met Jack Dorsey and I genuinely think that this is a personal thing.
Like I think that Elon and Jack had some Combos and then, you know, you'll on decided to buy a stake in Twitter. It's passive doesn't have any. He's also, I can say very much that like elon's totally over scheduled and as like, other things on his mind. Yeah. Kind of like a statement. Yeah. I like it. You know, it seems like a massive investment, but for him, I mean it's like 1 percent or so of his net worth like, you know, and
the culturally, it's
crazy. Culturally. It's crazy.
The fact is Twitter in terms of social media, businesses is not a great business. You know, it's cultural impact is much much higher than its economic for sure impact. Heck. I mean, even you know, like Jack Dorsey stepped away and is now running Square full-time. And if you look at those two businesses squares a much bigger business and more significant to. And so I think this was a relationship thing personally.
Yeah, so I think
Twitter, like I've said this for the past few years, I think Twitter is going to win like the long game with all these social media pop. It's my fate. Like there's a lot of that on Twitter. Don't get me wrong. I'm not putting it on pedestal, but it's been my favorite platform and I think there's so many different use cases for it. In terms of, I said this last podcast, but it's kind of what LinkedIn wishes it could be in terms of
content. So, I had the most singular said, yeah, her experiences as a check it out. Imagine being like a relatively Anonymous guy ran for president. Yes. And
Went powerful whatever, five thousand, Twitter followers to 1.2 million followers over the course of, I don't know, like, 15 months, 18 months, whatever was and so in that, you know, 1.2 million. People were a lot of people who had heard of, or, you know, in some cases, was a fan of. And so, when you guys are crazy, so this is something that I will say, like, it's probably relatively unique to
Me because can't relate, you know, but like you just be like, holy shit. Like, you know, like Rivers Cuomo Falls me at Twitter now is like the greatest thing ever that you feel like. Hey, what's up? And so I ended up meeting a lot of people this way.
Yes, it's crazy networking. Yeah.
Yeah, and so, then people would have been, like, DME be like, hey, big fan, I'd be like, oh, that's so nice. Jeez. Okay. Yes. Yeah, so there was like, something very, very,
Utilitarian and powerful and positive, you know, the folks were part of the Yang Yang or connecting on Twitter all the time and like I'd meet someone on Twitter and I'd see them at a rally or event is like the greatest thing ever. So like, you know the like I might have experienced some of those positive aspects of Twitter and when I was running for president, and I was, you know, between stops in Iowa. Hmm, like I was looking for productive things to do and so it was either.
Use my phone to call people or use Twitter. You know,
what? What's that option? Twitter?
Well, yeah found Twitter more, more fun. Because cam people because or yes
fascinating but because I love these like yeah social media culture conversations and with Twitter. It's very interesting because when I was in Middle School,
It was a prominent platform, aside with
Instagram. Everything I said, oh, that said, I think Twitter's user base is shrinking. Is it
or no? No, I think it's been growing as it. Yeah, I think this year. Yes. I'm pretty sure I wish I could Google right now because my laptop said, yeah, I'm pretty sure this yes. Wait. Okay, we can I make this point because it goes with that. So in high school, I would utilize to same with my peers when I talk about this, too. And in college is kind of like there were a few years where Twitter died out. And I noticed this in my younger siblings as well.
Kind of like you make a Twitter account. It's harder to navigate because it's not like, like Instagram, you know, you follow your friends Tick, Tock the content comes to you, and you're following a lot of strangers, Twitter's a little harder navigate when you first make a profile, but it's where a lot of professionals are. And like, as you get to the end of college and into early adulthood, you start to be more active on the platform. A lot of kids do use it for like a fandom culture and stands like you love your favorite celebrities or like pop artist or whatever.
But it becomes more prominent in like your early adulthood and like I just keep seeing so many people flock back to it. And just again it becomes their favorite platform. Like it kind of was when it in middle school. When you used it, more for humor reasons. It's like this weird cycle with Twitter and like you go back to loving it and it's just super great and like your adulthood. But to the point back to you on and the talk about freedom of speech. It's going to be interesting to see how that plays out and what his kind of hopes are in.
To Twitter and freedom of speech. Because Mark Zuckerberg talked about this, on the Luxe Freeman podcast about, you know, Lex screaming grilled him about. One of the biggest critiques is regarding freedom of speech and Mark was like, what would you do? It's so easy to critique that conversation. There's a million different ways. But what would you do? And no, almost no one has an answer. Once you get asked that because you can see, oh, this video got taken down, and a lot of these videos are taking down through Ai and even Mark Zuckerberg.
Got grilled a few years ago in front of Congress because yeah, content moderators were being paid a typical minimum wage, but they're sitting there all day watching,
looking at the worst human nature losing their minds. They're literally therapy
literally. So a human should not have to do that. And so then you have to rely on AI, and, of course, there's going to be flaws in that. And when you have these crazy clickbait headlines, whether it's on YouTube.
Yeah, I get frustrated as October's responses, stuff like that. Yes. It's like look,
You're making good Jillian's of dollars an approach to. This is essentially, as I can try and curb the most rancid stuff, because in countermeasure, leave us alone. And then part of it's like look man, like you could do bigger things that probably hurt your bottom line, like that. They're just be like, no. So the like what someone said is like like the algorithm should not be feeding into this stuff like you're profiting from a lot of these things and then complaining about it. It's like, you know, just like turn the algorithms off.
And say that you're not, you know, like you're just you're not going to profit from content unless you're willing to stand by it. Then all of a sudden they'd be like, oh, snap like, you know, we like so it's, it's like if you assume the current state of affairs and you could be like, oh, like, what's a person to do? But it's like, well, you know, you're assuming all these things that are baked into your business model because they make you tons of money. Like, if you were to draw this up from scratch, like you could do this in very dramatic ways. You
Almost certainly make a lot less money and but that like that, like that. It's funny. It's like they're willing to consider anything but those measures.
So, do you think? So, when you say turn off the algorithms, because right now, the algorithms to me on a lot of these pop forms, especially Tick-Tock genuinely feel like it's just a reflection of your mind and like what you give attention to? And yes, humans tend to flock to kind of these extremes happy and bad feelings. So, how do you see the algorithm? Like what do you
think? So, because right now, the algorithm is
To do one thing maximizing attention. Yeah, it's just like, Hey, how do I maximize your engagement? And it's like, what, like what you're paying attention? Like, I can't be blamed. Yep, you know. And and so you can easily temper that and just be like, hey, maybe we're not going to maximize engagement. Maybe we're going to like, you know, maybe we'll actually make programming decisions. Maybe we'll take some responsibility. Maybe we'll do you know, it's like the the it's so it would make it probably a little bit less owner Tomatoes profitable. Yeah, probably less entertaining.
You make it less addictive, there like a lot of things you could do that, make it less addictive.
Yeah, so so anyway, I just feel like the what can we do response? Just you know assumes all these market
conditions. What gets interesting there to me, though is like yeah, when they're kind of making more tweaks with the algorithm in regards to yet. Maybe not perfectly aligning with the extremes that it does. Right. Now. I feel like almost it gets more nitty-gritty into the lack of freedom of speech conversation if they're being more calculated about what type of content.
Should be pushed more or shouldn't be pushed more rather than, oh, just what people give more eyes on because
that is the point. So, I think this is, so this is the thing that, you know, that they're trying to run this balance, which I think at this point. I you look, man. It's ridiculous. Is that like, look, we're not a publisher or a platform. Yeah, you know, like, we have control. It's like you say it. Mmm. And and then part of me is like, you're actually the biggest publisher in the history of the world. Yes, and you're the biggest publishers.
Taking less responsibility. So, you know, they're they're all these rules of the road that I think could be followed and does it end up with in running into this strange zone of like, well, what what's what's hate speech was not tennety. What's not? Yeah, that threatening was not and that's legitimate for them to be like look can't have random lowly paid human doing that decision. We do have a, I doing it. They screw up sometimes
People get mad, you know, like that. That's a very, very legitimate conversation. That's more sense. Even like like I've heard from heads of social media companies being like look, I shouldn't be making this decision and and that's something that I sympathize with 100%, That's something way. And the them, what they're doing here is their problem. Their problem was like, look, we're not a public Commons, where a private company. We do. Whatever the hell we want. We don't even tell you about it. We're going to draw this line here and then you're happy, aren't happy. Whatever.
C'est La Vie, no one can do anything. What's the current state of affairs? What you want? Is you'd want them to actually open the kimono and be like, okay sure. The guidelines were using like, like, Okay, can someone improve on this in some way? Let's have like a Consortium of government ngos media companies and Tech figuring out like, how we treat this in a way. Yes, drive people insane, doesn't like run afoul of this, and that but that that's not something that you want to do. Because it's like, look, I'd rather just
Criticize them times and keep it behind the kimono, you know, because there's so much. We don't ever find out about what's going on inside of Facebook in their algorithms because they don't share the data.
Yeah. It's a beast of a problem because to your point there. Yeah, we're talking about certain things are obvious for people to put off. The platform is real. Whether it's violence or whatever, don't need to be seen on the platforms. Yeah, it gets into the wishy-washy situations when it's like and this provoke violence. Can this provoking a masochist?
Serie, yeah, and that's where we're it's definitely gets messy and it's going to be interesting to see how because I think, Elon reply to someone. Yeah, like I don't necessarily agree with you on this piece of content, but I think deleting it is wrong and of course that can be true in a lot of instances but it gets wishy-washy especially with like yeah. All covid-19. Ang's, maybe weren't true initially and were suppressed on platforms or even deleted and maybe sir.
Things became true. And little little truce with in and people really ran with those as examples. Something. I liked that platforms did were the warnings, so it wasn't deleting the content, but people could press on them. Reality is people became numb to those and you weren't pressing on it and actually reading the content. So it's such a, it's just a crazy tough problem to attack. I think that was a step in the right direction, though. Not taking this content down, but we're going to put a warning here that hey, these are some sources where you might want to flock to instead. I thought that was
Interesting. Yeah, I got some mornings on my stuff when I was like celebrating various political races and it was like really this race has not been called. Oh,
sorry. Yeah, I think is a key words or whatever. Yeah.
I was like, yeah.
Yeah. Yeah. People would run with that to their like that. My stuff got a warning. It's okay. If you just put covid ever anything that says covid gets a warning. No matter if it's an interest for against your, at least, that's how it was on Instagram. In a point if like you put the words covid, Instagram story. There was a little warning at the bottom.
So our last discussion items going to be this happy. Oh good, initiation of a union in Staten Island Amazon warehouse. Yes, you know, is very, very brave. Thank you for doing this for all of us
can and also just someone over the past few years. So kind of the Starbucks Union and all the Press around, that was the first. It just feels like there's this, uh, prize and unions right now, and I would love to hear like your thoughts on this as well. I think.
Of young people are just getting into the workforce in like the actual importance of unions is kind of something that people are
confused about. Yeah, unions are definitely making a comeback after like a multi-decade in a multi-generational even decline. Yeah. There was a I think writ large. There was a point when unions represented approximately. I think I want to say it's like 40% of the workforce. And then now wow, it's down to like 20 or like it's gone down half or so.
And unions, got a bad rap, there are excess associated with unions. But you know, what else they're access is associated with Amazon little bit little bit. And and so in the context of something like Amazon and unions, a pure good, like the the excesses and unions are and frankly more like, you know, teachers unions and some other environments in the corporate setting workers are getting exploited, very, very consistently, and so people be able to come together.
Is a huge win. There, were massive pressures against the people are trying to organize. Yes, so kudos to them for standing strong. I'm sure it won't be the last Amazon Union because now that other locations look up and be like, wait, they actually did this in a, in a place and yeah, powered and win some concessions as well. So we're going to be a lot of eyes on Staten Island and the Amazon fulfillment center there. I will say that. I think Staten Island is an appropriate hotbed for this because there are a lot of independent minded there.
People there who are also benefit from unions. There are a lot of cops and Staten Island. A lot of people who are part of these
orgs. Yeah, and again for kind of young people getting to the workforce and this is a very empowering and regards to yeah, the labor conversations around Amazon the past few years. What exactly is a relationship between like a union and the direct employer versus like a union in the government like where it is? This
coincide. Well, I'm happy to answer. Yeah, I need clarification. So so there are various Federal rule.
The books around unions. Okay, they're not enforced very rigorously. Unfortunately, I wish they were enforced more rigorously, but you can't be fired for trying to start a union though. I'm sure it happens all the time. Like can't be retaliated against sure. It happens all the time. Yeah the polls. And so if you satisfy certain standards and you can qualify as a union and then you can negotiate for wages benefits, whatever you'd like on the Sun. So that the the
The so the legal framework is around allowing for organization and keeping employers from retaliating. Okay. Now, if you become a union, you then can connect with the Department of Labor, which is the official government agency. That is meant to support labor and unions and everything
else. Okay. I just want that clarification because it's like, I understand unions and their purpose within the employer, but I was a little bit confused about. Yeah. The government relationship there and
regret.
My setup rules saying, hey, like your, the rules around unionizing. Yeah to do. So employers should be able to discriminate against you and fire you or make it more difficult though. Again employers, do it all the time. And, you know, there were it's very clear. Amazon is doing it and this instance. Yes, and then, if you succeed in unionizing, there's a group of regulators. There's like a its own kind of legal tribunals that they're like, the
National Labor, Relations Board is meant to adjudicate these kinds of issues. So there's like a whole legal. Yeah. Regime that comes into effect.
And so Amazon spent I know in the past year was like four point three million trying to block this from happening. So what for employers. Yeah. What is the incentive? Of course, like it's just rooted and just not wanting to give the employees power. Oh, yeah, that's just like what? Of course. It's rooted in that, but it's like, is there any other things that
Really push them to spend that much money in blocking something like this. Well
for Amazon Amazon would have spent a lot more than that. I know for sure because it's like you look at their Workforce around the country. It's in the hundreds of thousands. So they weren't all the unionized. So so I have a sense of the backdrops of this. So the the union movement arose in the mid-twentieth century, when manufacturing of automobiles and everything else became like major major employer. People are getting exploited right in the left.
And then in unionizing was very, very difficult. We're like auto companies and others would send assassins like kill Union. I like it was, it was essentially War. He's in the the streets. Like, there's a guy Walter Reuther who like got shot in the face at home for being a labor leader. So, this stuff was very, very hard fought, very hard fought and then when the Union's one, it was like this massive culmination of this like movement, and they got like these laws in place.
As labor was a massive, massive force in American life. And then that that type of like the things that I'm describing probably completely alien to most
people know. This is like, keep going, but I have a comment then.
Yeah, so so labor. And again, there was a point when you know, like something like 35 or 40 percent of all workers represented by unions. So unions, were the force, they negotiated 40 hour, work weeks benefits, all the stuff that a lot of people enjoy, like, you know, all these
things.
To go through this again, to be
honest. I mean like so I sincerely doubt it's going to because like going from 40 percent to 20 percent of the population over. The last number of decades is really significant and like Ken that reverse in this way. Like I'm dubious. I'm happy again that this Union has formed and I'm happy that there are various, you know, like environments where these things are happening.
But there there was like this incredible War and the reason there are some reasons, I'm dubious now. And that like I think maybe tomorrow, like I was thinking that like the the deck has gotten so stacked against workers that it'd just be like, I think it's going to be, I'm supportive but you know, I'm not sure. This is the is going to fix it. Sorry. I'm so so that's like the great Arc is like there's this massive conflict unions became
Try and then have been declining for like a 60-year period. If you look at, for example, the Martin Luther King, I Have a Dream speech. Yep. There were union leaders there with them. Like there were a lot of folks in that, I Have a Dream speech, like union leaders were hand in hand with the Civil Rights Movement. Whole thing was like, you know, very, very much like power to the people and then like the last 60 years, two generations. It's gone. The other direction enormously.
Now is there, is there going to be a comeback? It seems like we're seeing something of a Resurgence
and this is a preface for another conversation other day because I think it's something we can talk about for a while. But yeah, we're we talked about last podcast mean Zack about this disconnect right now between education and the future of work. And I'm seeing a lot of, like, younger Millennials and gen Z coming into the
workforce. You like. What? A student of History I am
Jules. No, that's it. Now. This is really interesting because I just feel like that's like history repeats itself. And who knows?
You might not might not believe the same but I'm just seeing this clear up rice and how gen Z is viewing work. And how even there was an article that came out yesterday. I think I might've been the Wall Street Journal again, about how young employee young employees aren't doing cover letters. For example, like just completely skipping that part and of course we see what the great resignation, everything. There's just something cooking in regards to this disconnect between education and
I work and also how the gig economy is gig economy, passion economy, which I have my reservations about that piping up. And in regards to, if people do become more self employed, that of course the healthcare system in its current form, does not work for that type of system. And there's I feel like in the next. Yeah, this decade towards the end of it more. So we're going to see something very interesting in regards to labor conversations because we talked about this earlier that seems like people kind of tuning out.
Maybe of the next election, in terms of polarization. A lot of people are depleted. But this seems like a something a lot of people are getting behind or these labor and work conversations. I'm seeing more and more.
Well, you would know. I mean, you have your finger on the pulse.
Yeah. I think that. Yeah
would be exciting. You know, I'm all for folks organizing in certainly in organizations. Like Amazon. I mean, gosh, like their ideal because they're made of money. They're super exploitive. Lot of
Work for them. Like we all use them but you know, know that they could be doing more. So it's perfect.
Will you spoke about four-day work weeks to during your 2020 presidential
campaign of? Yeah, I'm all about trying to humanize workplaces and the rest of it, you know, I really dislike exploitation and there's a lot of it going on.
It's going to be interesting. We got I think a good future ahead but there's going to be a lot of
you. I mean, I'm so glad that you're an optimist in that way. But also see these things very very clearly.
I
mean, yeah, I don't know if I'm an optimist, but
what comes next?
It'll be interesting, but I'm excited about
as long as you're excited. Jewel. I'm excited to yes.
I think that's all we have today. I think we went over everything right?
Yes. Yes. We did. Awesome. Awesome. Have a great week,
everyone. Have a great week.
