When I was running Manhattan prep, I stepped down as CEO to start a venture for America. In 2011. And I have to say the organization did not skip a beat and I need you. And I thought to myself. Wow. It turns out. I was not that important. And, you know, there was some part of me that was a little bit crestfallen where I was like, oh, I'll make myself available to the incoming executive director, head of the company or whatnot. And you know what?
Else happens. The person you bring in as your successor never calls you. Or if they do call, you is just with a concrete ask because it turns out, they don't really want your advice. They want you to get lost. That's not totally do the way that most people operate in life and a lot of people listening this probably been through this, like, let's say that you have a new head of a company. The first thing people think to themselves is, how does this affect me? You know, and so then people are just like, oh my going to be okay. And then as soon as you're like, yeah, you're fine.
Okay,
you know, who's the, who's the new person this person? I like, like most people immediately are just like, okay, as long as my stuff is more or less stable. Like I'll just get used to the new reality. I think strong organizations can do without the founder. And I'm so proud of the fact that Venture for America has been going strong. Now, for years without me. I think that actually is the highest Mark of Entrepreneurship is that you can build something and then step away and then it drives without
You? Yes, I do like it a bit to Parenting. It's like you don't want a kid who fucking needs you. I mean, yeah, that's not a good pair of day. You like the kid gets to, you know, 25 and is like hey, you know, like, you know Mom, yeah, like screw in the light bulb for me or whatever. The thing is, you're like, you know do it yourself. So you want the org to be the same way.
This week on for the podcast. We talk about founder syndrome in the wake of Jack Dorsey. Stepping down from Twitter, Omicron ominous and also the
politicization of the economy. The fact that people now have an opinion about the economy.
Upon how they feel about the party in power. Yeah. I know. That's that's happening this week on forward.
We are back on the forward podcast, this week. Who knows what the fuck were going to talk about? When you talk about it first, and then, we'll do the intro later. The magic is going to let it the magic of not. So live entertainment. Gonna let it take us where our hearts desire brother happily. I hope your Thanksgiving was good, man. Yeah, it was great, family food, a lot of food. Definitely the best holiday. No pressure, you know, no presents.
Yeah, it was lovely. I hope everyone had a wonderful Thanksgiving. So, news of the week, Jack Dorsey stepping down as CEO of Twitter. And then he's taking the next step and leaving the board, about six months from now unusual, for someone to step away, fully read his note on Twitter about his resignation, and I need to back drop this by saying that we are friendly
Ends with Jack doors, friend of the show friend of the show. Yes. You can look up my combo with Jack Dorsey last year to get a sense as to who he is. I thought that podcast interview with them, which was one of our highest rated episodes was an unusual Glimpse because it's not like Jack ordinarily does interviews like that ordinarily. It's a different type of environment. So I like, Jack, I appreciate Jack, I admire him. I'm indebted to him.
Him, he's been one of the biggest champions of universal basic income and that includes supporting the cash relief efforts of humanity forward during the pandemic. So, if you are looking for someone who's somehow, you know, not not friends with Jack. This is not the,
like,
not the condo for the anti Jack takes probably on us. We like Jack. Yeah, we like Jack and he's someone who just openly came out and said,
Look, we're making decisions that we shouldn't be making. And at this point technology companies, the government media organizations and nonprofit should get together, right? And try to establish some guidelines. I thought that was very reasonable. You know, it's unreasonable. Now is that our government is way behind the curve and then foisting various decisions on private Enterprises saying hey do this do that. You screwed this up. Frankly. There is no way to draw a line, if you're a Twitter, that's
Not going to piss someone off and then the the hearings are completely inane and nonsensical mean that they're like legitimate issues. But Jack's been one of the good ones in my mind saying, like, yeah, there are legitimate issues and let's try to get together on this. I have a certain level of empathy for these Tech Founders, because they build something with a great idea, obviously. And then it becomes something that no one could have either fat ever fathomed. And so they're stuck with this.
Okay, what do we do with this? How do we monitor? How do we want to use the word? I mean sensor is what thrown around, but how do you navigate the hate and the love and the the free-for-all that is the what the internet was when they first started and still is today and the government's been out to lunch doing nothing. What did you think? I think we ever talk about this? What did you think when they kick Trump off? Aren't you ever had public thoughts on that?
I think, at that
point, it was the right move mean, he was legitimately inciting violence, right? And lives were lost. You know, like what was before you'd consider it somewhat political had kind of gone into another area. And I will say that the
World has been a little bit less noisy and more Lucid with Trump off of the major social media platforms. Now, there are people that will look at that and say oh that's the wrong decision. It's censorship and freedom of speech and the rest of it, right? The thing that people don't understand is that
the First Amendment freedom of speech is says, that government shall not abridge people's freedom of speech. Newsflash, Twitter is not the US government. Twitter is a private company that can have terms of service and do what it wants. Its like if you went to a restaurant and started doing things that were against our restaurants term, two terms of service mean whatever it is and they can be like, hey get lost and that's allowed and you can't be like, hey, I can say whatever I want because of the First Amendment, that's not the way it works. Right? It's like the
It's not supposed to abridge, your freedom. But if a private firm makes a decision that you're not, not wearing, I don't I was gonna joke saying like wearing a shirt because that's what I think of in the restaurant. Like I'm not sure if there's a wearing a shirt equivalent. Yeah, where it share it, like, where it's like there's like, you know, you have a right to bear your torso. So so a private firm making a decision like that.
I thought was appropriate right? If if, I mean if it was a comedy club where people are like I'm trying to get like a more accurate analogy, where the role of the participants, or the talent, there is to say whatever they want. Their Comedy Club. Kick someone out that saying something offensive? Right? That crosses a line. Yeah. I mean, hopefully other snapping Comedy Club, I feel like Comedy Club. Yeah, I agree. That's not the best environment but maybe, but that's the point there probably is a line for comedy clubs, right? Where your man, inciting violence, and yeah, I suppose, if you were just if you were legitimately inciting violence.
Right, it's just what I think. I know it's January 6 that really, that really did it, right. I also want to say to that Jack runs two major tech companies to me. That's the thing that now surround square, right? Yeah. So, and either of those jobs is enormous. No. No, I mean, big jobs, like they're, they're both public companies worth tens of billions of dollars, have hundreds or thousands of people working for them touch millions of people.
Having any individual in charge of two of those Enterprises, at the same time, strikes me as frankly, kind of superhuman. Now, there are other examples of this. I mean, elon's running Tesla, and SpaceX and a couple of other things. So, to the extent that you are one of these Founders and you manage to put yourself in in that particular position mean I'm not intrinsically.
Against that sort of arrangement. If that's, you know, the the best approach I will say though that having run various organizations. It strikes me as like a whole lot for any individual. It's a little bit. Like if you're a sports fan where the NBA has done away with this President role, where you're both the GM and the coach because they've decided, you know, what, you should probably have two different people doing those jobs. So,
It's not like Jack doesn't have a massive set of responsibilities that he immediately that is turning to. He's right now dividing his time between these two huge firms. I used to have a boss when I was at UBS. We used to.
He was like a field guy used to manage. We hit was as wealth managers who manage financial advisors and they were managers of those financial advisors and treat up and they were 7,000 of them. So there's a lot of people to manage, plus their teams and all the employees. And I'll people look up to you, and they were certain roles use hiring. And he'd be like, yep. That's a big job and those level you'd still that person only have a couple thousand, find a couple as it is small but a couple a few thousand financial advisors and then all the managers that report up to him or her and
Even that was big. So the concept to me of and it's right. What is a big job mean? It's taking all of your time. You're traveling probably a lot. You've got a lot of people depending on you their livelihood, mouths to feed all these things, your decisions affect the lives, of frankly, Millions, if you do the trickle-down, so the concept being CEO of to Tech conglomerates is mind-blowing to me. You probably have to have really good. People doing some of the operational work and day-to-day decision-making, I could be wrong. Maybe they are superhuman, they do it themselves, but well, I from my
Limited exposure to Jack. I do get the sense that he's extraordinary at streamlining. Yeah, responsibilities in time where I think you just goes in and focuses on the most important things and has excellent people around him, right, but that's from the outside looking in, right? So I wanted to ask you about founder syndrome because I come from in the nonprofit, social Enterprise world and you spent some time there too. And that world. It's
Great and exciting young nonprofits are so founder driven because their job to just exude the energy and optimism and raise money and everybody who's donating to a big nonprofit wants to meet the founder. So they end up being like the only player in many ways. You can't Outsource a lot of the founder role and you end up treating the org a bit like it's your child like it's your baby or like a part of you and maybe that's similar to being treated like a child. Did you, I'm sure you felt this in your own way but want
That experience Founders engine-wise at Venture for America because you eventually left in the Orga still thriving. What did you, how did you experience that? Our friend said to me a while ago, and he's right nonprofits, run out of passion. And so, when you're the founder, you are excluding passion for the mission, that's too. By the way, you get people to work with you to, you not just donors or supporters are board members or parting ways. Yeah, its employees. Like what the heck's going to join this farm and you have to really believe
Leave. I started Venture for America and 2011 and ran it for six years. And so there was a lot of love. Like you said it, you felt like you were the head of an extended family and it's very, very difficult to leave because you feel almost a sense of like abandonment to your point. In my case. I left to run for president of the United States and I I'm actually going to share something so I ran.
Education company for a similar length of time and we five years and leaving that farm was very, very hard. Because I also felt like the head of that household. And so I needed to do something very purpose-driven in order to justify leaving frankly. Like I wouldn't have been able to live with myself. If I was just saying like, hey guys, I'm leaving as head of the company so I can you know, chill out.
Or find myself or any of those things. I mean, you know, nothing against people who do that. Right? But I just would have felt like I was shirking and so in my case I left to start this nonprofit that was going to help create thousands of jobs and I give rise to this culture of Entrepreneurship. And so that was something that I could say and feel very good about and I felt the same way leaving Venture for America where it's like, okay. I'm leaving to run for president on universal basic income and that was a very big Noble someone.
Likely Mission and and then. So if someone adventure for America was like, okay, Andrews doing this. I actually thought that my presidential run was in some ways meant to serve as an example, for folks, who are in Venture for America where it's like, okay, someone can do something big and ambitious and actually succeed on some level and I'll say to you, Zach that I felt an immense pressure because
The folks at Venture for America saw me leave to run for president and then if I fell flat on my face, I'd feel really bad because I would have brought a bunch of America's like hey, you know, our founder left to do this stupid thing. I mean it was a flop. So that was one of the things that drove me to try and make a Mark was like, oh man, if I left the fa this org that I spent years building to do something. I'd better do it. Well,
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I've seen this a lot. So if you're the founder of this org and your the passion, you're growing it, and you're hiring people. It's very, very, very difficult to leave. You were made managed to leave with even higher and let's call it different Ambitions. You went from for-profit or nonprofit, from nonprofit to politics. Like you're one of the probably one of, the only ones I've ever done it. Well, most of the time, it's a really awkward transition because let's say, you've been selling this, we're going to cure, you know, we're going to give drinking clean drinking water to the entire.
Our world even selling this in everybody's buying buying what you're selling and then you leave. It's like you gave up right? When in reality. You've been doing it for 10 years, seven years. Like, you may just want a life change, right? And then the other thing is, if you're a really successful charity, you're raising tons and tons of money. You're now at the upper echelons of society, right? Your mingling with the world's richest, wealthiest most famous people and you're not rich yourself and it's a little bit of a that is chat is hard, especially when you're clearly.
Smart enough to make money and smart enough to be kind of thriving in the capitalist Society. So, I don't know if you ever felt if that was ever part of it or have you ever thought about the money aspect? Well, I made a comment that that's what politicians feel where they're all we have done with this Village has raised rich people and then you're like, I'm just as important and smart and capable as you are and then the rich people are like yeah you are. Hey, let's cut you in on this deal. Hey, do this video? Yeah, let's do it. And one of the mysteries of our time is how people are getting.
So rich in office in d.c. You notice that? Yeah. It's like they go in is relatively normal people, making salaries of X and then come back multi millionaires. And you're like, how like, how the heck did that happen? Like I can look up your salary. Like, it's either insider trading or advisory shares on boards. Probably a combo. I don't know. Well, but I have been in these environments and there are very wealthy people that do want to be your friends, and they do want to cut you in on various things. Right? And so I think that's where it goes.
Those you know, you hear about politicians being on boards and being in various deals, man, and a lot of political figures haven't necessarily made money in business or you know, and so if you're around these donor types, but you're right on the nonprofit side as well. I knew a lot of founders of nonprofits who were doing the right thing and then at some point they look up and say, wait this isn't sustainable for me if I want to
A family if I want to do this. And that's a very, very difficult transition for a lot of people to make. I've, you know, the tough part two, is it be the founder of the nonprofit? You're not allowed to acknowledge that in most environments? Like I was the head of venture for America and I'd be sitting with the head of a another nonprofit and they would be talking to me about how like, hey I'm trying to propose to my girlfriend, but I don't think I can afford this. And like I'm worried that they're not going to to
be able to Envision a future with me because we live in this small place. And you know, like we're driving this used car and like blah blah blah and I would hear this stuff and frankly in my case or just make me like go home and just be grateful because in my case I had at least made some money as a private Company CEO and entrepreneur before I decided to go non-profit, but someone who just been in the nonprofit world and worked their hearts out, you know that they would be struggling.
And then they wouldn't be able to say that openly because oh by the way, they're supposed to be martyrs. They're supposed to be driven by the work, like the work is the privilege. Know that I might want to take this one step further to mean, there are a lot of creatives who are in a similar boat, like, you're about the art and then you're not allowed to complain about, it's like, hey, you know, I'm not making much money here as a musician or actor or playwright or whatever. The thing is. Yeah. So the nonprofit founder syndrome is
Very, very tough and very, very real. I was extraordinarily fortunate that there was an awesome person ready to take on the CEO role as I stepped away. I do remember going to my board in early 2017 saying, hey guys, I'm leaving to run for president and the reactions. You can imagine we're all over the map, but they got with the program quickly where there were like, Andrews leaving and then they were like, oh, let's figure out what the next Arrow looks like. And I'm
Happy to say, that Venture for America is just continued to go on that a couple of years. After I left. We're actually some of the best years. I used to joke that, you know, I must have been holding it back. We'd A lotta is one of my favorite, tuck is a TED Talk called uncharitable. He's a thought leader in the space. He's exceptional exceptional, public speaker. But one of the things he says, is we have a problem in the United States of America where people make a ton of money doing good. We have a problem with that is not okay. It's not acceptable, but we have no
No problem. If you make a ton of money doing bad doing terrible, things, like if you Frack your way to billions and billions of dollars and destroy the environment in the process, we'll put you on the cover of Forbes. Will praise that you're a billionaire. Like if you want to run for president will tell you what media cover you like your Superstar, but if you make a million dollars running the sea being the CEO of the boys and girls club, which is helping millions of kids, right? If you streamline that triple revenues and make a million dollars compared to a billion, we're talking about will literally crucify you and we have I think in 2010 they got
The boys and girls CEO was fired for having a million dollar total compensation in paying their Executives. Well, even though their track record was pretty great at the time. And now I don't think you know, and no one wants their donations going to pay for Andrew Yang's yacht at Venture for America or something like that, but there's gotta be a happy medium because in order to run anything, any talent and you gotta have incentivizing on for Norm. I don't know. I remembered a lot of Ted talk to where he was, he was talking about. How have you
Went to a fancy business school and your option was either, start a non-profit or make lots of money and then join the board of a non-profit. Everyone would do the ladder. Yeah, and as we praise that to, it's like, oh, it's all it's like smarter. Yeah, because, you know, then you don't have to actually make massive Financial sacrifices. You just give a little bit of money and then you're there, bossing around the person who actually put your name on the door, right? No executive director, gets their name on the door, or the name on the building.
It's usually the donor.
Yeah, you and I live versions of this man. People don't appreciate Zach. Here started a non-profit for underprivileged. Kids saw suit called Su top. That's been doing great work for a decade and he managed to do that. In addition to all of his other stuff. That was my we talked about a bit. But I like one of the things we had like, the founder syndrome of this actually real wear that.
So when I joined The Campaign, which is you and me and a couple of others in 2018, I transitioned suit up basic gave the keys to a new hire. Her name is Lauren Riley and and she's exceptional, but it was hard for me to give.
The ropes to someone to like let give your it's like, you're handing your kid over, you know, and it was you find myself like biting my tongue a lot. Like, don't do that or do this or trying to give advice or maybe I shouldn't have. And it was a, it was a good transition for us. But did you feel that when you left vfa, or you able, because president was so time-consuming able to just go cold turkey and like good luck Venture for America. Well, I've had a couple of experiences here where when I was running Manhattan prep. I stepped down as CEO to start a venture for America and 2011.
And I have to say the organization did not skip a beat and I need you. And I thought to myself that psycho. Like I'm important here, you know, like have a lot of experience and relationships and like the org did not skip a beat and so the lesson I took one that is like, wow, it turns out I was not that important. And you know, there was some part of me that was a little bit crestfallen where I was like, oh, I'll make myself available to the incoming.
Executive director head of the company or what not. And you know, what else happens? The person you bring in as your successor, never calls you, or if they do call, you is just with a concrete ask because it turns out they don't really want your advice. They want you to get lost that's not totally do so because I'd been through that experience when I left Venture for America and I was a much more integral part of venture for America. Then I was Manhattan prep, even though I was a CEO, you know, president of Manhattan prep.
But I was more tied to the life's blood of venture for America, but I still thought like, you know what, they're going to be. Okay without me and the way that most people operate in life and a lot of people listening this probably been through this, like, let's say that you have a new head of a company. The first thing people think to themselves is how does this affect me? You know, and so then people are saying oh my going to be okay and then as soon as you're like, yeah, you're fine. The my God, okay.
You know, who's the, who's the new person this person? I like, like most people immediately are just like, okay, as long as my stuff is more or less stable. Like, I'll just get used to the new reality and that, that took again a bit of adjustment because you're like, oh, like, isn't it important that it be me and then Sia, not really. So, having been through that with
One company, and then a non-profit, I think strong organizations can do without the founder. And I'm so proud of the fact that Venture for America has been going strong. Now, for years, without me. I think that actually is the highest Mark of Entrepreneurship is that you can build something and then step away and then it thrives without you. Yes. I do like it a bit to Parenting. It's like, you don't want a kid who fucking needs you. I mean, yeah, that's not a good parent. A good kid gets.
You know, 25 and is like hey, you know like Mom, yeah, like screwing this light bulb for me or whatever. The thing is you like, you know, do it yourself. So you want the org to be the same way.
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It's tough to try to cultivate new CEO or leader. And now, that's something that I think. If you were the head of an organization, you should always be be keeping an eye out for is like, okay. Is there someone who could actually make me irrelevant? Yeah. So the our CEO now. Lauren has been remarkable seat UPS like completely better in every way. Right? And we're now going to, we're going to be million dollar.
Next year, I double X. Fantastic. I feel like a proud. Do you want proud parent? I do like to toot our own horn, a bit or anyone's horns, like the goods. As a sign of good leadership is that when the founder leaves or leader leaves the or can still not only exist but Thrive and that it set up its credit to the culture of the, the idea or whatever it is. That that was as painful as I was like, for me, it was painful to see suit up doing well. And I was like, completely worthless and many ways, but it's also now at the point,
Pride right little time. I'm sure you feel that same way to write V, fa still doing great. You know, I have a number of marriage jokes here Zack where it's like, you know, of course, I can take Direction. I'm married but, you know, that's like, there's like a degree of acknowledgement of your own extraneous. Yes. I also think comes along with being. I said that to my dad, I was like, is the point, but when men get married, they just have someone, if they get married to a woman like you
Have someone the rest of your life, that just points out your flaws, as just there for you to just to say hey, you got a gray hair. Hey, you've got XYZ wrong with you. Is that? Is that what is that? It, it's not quite like that. That is mean it's at least for me and Evelyn. It's like Evelyn is aware of things. I'm not aware of and sees things, I'm not aware of and so I was just like, hey do this pay attention to this? Do this, do this and you're like, okay. Okay. Yeah, and and you know, that that person is correct a whole lot.
It's also different when you like Carly is smarter than me. So that's like another. Like I can't win an argument with her unless I'm really really right. But other than that, like should just Wordsmith their way out of whatever argument. And so that's like a whole nother can of worms to. I am a shrug. Anyway, I'd I would do recommend marrying or getting dating and marrying someone smarter than you. It's a
If you win every argument, that's not funny either. Yeah, you know, ideally, you have someone who's like a like a partner to you where, you know, like you, I mean, certainly for me. It's like I want to share this joke to where I talk to my boys about how, they should appreciate Evelyn so much because she's such a great mom. And I say, if it was up to Dad, your companion would be an inflated balloon called inflate. Oh. And then every time you needed something, it would be.
Like, talk to inflate. Oh, and then, in Plato would just sit there, silent. I'd be like, that's how you'd learn to just do shit for yourself like so, you know, Soda
ha ha ha. So now, every once in a while,
the I household I just yell
inflate. Oh,
and then the boy started laughing because it says like, what? But I say it when they're frankly being, like, kind of needy or whiny, you know, and they're just like, hey, this happened
help me with this. I just yelling Play-Doh. So there's a show a new show on Netflix. I'm not going to recommend it. But if you guys are really desperate for Content, I'll you know throw this on your list. It's called Inside Job. It's animated show about like making fun of all the conspiracy using United States. They're like the Deep state, but there's one guy is like a super scientist genius. It's Kelly Slater is a voice of it and he didn't want to deal with his daughter. So he just made her like a giant bear, robot called Barrow and that's what that reminds me of. Yeah, to give her a hug. It's late. My kids like it's totally traumatizing.
From this. The other thing reminds me of is on the campaign. We're like one of the hardest part in the campaign running for president was like things would happen in HQ. And for me, like learning one What mattered at all. Like whether those things in HQ actually mattered and to whether they matter enough to bring up to you, right? And I did not always get this, right? And we didn't always get this right. We're learning as we go, which is going to beginning, but there was one time I'll never forget this.
This I told I brought something up and you just looked at me and goes act because I want you to do. I want you tell, whoever brought this up in HQ to go put a mannequin in the closet, in the back corner of our headquarters. And I want that man, again to have a sign. And every time things like this happen. I want to go check the mannequin. When I go check the mannequin, that old closet door and gonna walk in there and see the mannequin thing and see the sign and the sign is going to say. It doesn't fucking matter.
You remember this. Oh, yeah, of course.
Is it be leaders of tactic of
yours is happening prior organizations? Well, I mean, you know, it's just true some of the time. Yeah, so it's got themselves. So my little boys tend to get themselves into a tizzy over stuff that now frankly the didn't Merit and there were some people on HQ that have the same tendency. So it was. Yeah. The consult the sign campaigns are hard to because everything's happening at once. It was not a knock on anyone because it's, you know, there's a lot of stuff on campaigns that are just like table Stakes.
So it's a zero-sum game, right? You either need to get really getting on about our you're not or you're either, you know, we're knocking on doors today. We're not at that sort of thing. But when you're in that moment doesn't feel like a zero to one game. It feels like the whole gray in between matters and that's like by the hard. Well, you know, it's tough. I mean it's tough when you're disconnected from the candidate or field and you're like, oh they should be doing this. They should be doing that and then there's, you know, the field you'd be like a guys, like we kind of have our hands full and I don't work, you know, doing things and your suggestion by the way, is not good. It's
Terrible try that. Stop asking we tried that for weeks ago at the end of it immediately, that is the hard part and it's it was harder for us to you because you're not, you have robot tendencies in many ways, but you're not a political robot in a sense that you'll go up and just read the script and not think twice about it. Right? Like I couldn't you have the comps team. Be like, all right, answer is guys say this and I'll be like, yeah. I tried a massage it a bit. Like, do you got to give it a Andrews? I give it an Andrew and you're like, what is this is trash. I'm not doing this. And it's like, all right, like what you think because you're a human, you know, there are but they're working.
It's and I was somewhat jealous of them from a campaign manager standpoint. They would just read the script and a lot, all of those lost frankly and the best candidates particularly in the top three or four or let's top six to seven. Usually thought for themselves. Even Joe like he wasn't even known for gas because he would go off script and sometimes that's when he was great, too. Anyways, we somehow got Jack. Dorsey has sparked a whole number of conversations. So thank you, Jack, preciate that good luck at Square.
Jack, Good Luck. Good Luck is. How are small businesses? Thank you for supporting me and oh Lord. Thank you for your money. Thank you for creating an addictive app for better for worse. All right. Well, we, you know, I should say, certainly the Yang Yang was Twitter, great deal. I think so Twitter is a tough place, but but is but Twitter, definitely helped fuel the rise of our campaign. I like to think that we're still a very, very positive.
On Twitter. So yeah, thank you for that too. I mean, that's the thing about these tech apps, right? The the upside the good coming out of this remarkable, right? And it is kind of on the government, help them mitigate the bad right? Speaking of mitigating the bad Omicron, I say that right? Yes, my craw macron covid variant. This is variant number. God knows what I think our macron is the 15th Greek letter in the alphabet. I have no idea, but they
I skipped a few. They skip the the one that was x i z chi chi. See I'm terrible. Greek letters guys. Don't quote me on this. They skip that because I don't think it'd be good. I think they're mean there's rational reasons. I think. Anyway, they skipped a few. Yeah. I don't know if it's a fifteen parent. Yeah. I don't know. New York City is now requiring their strongly recommending the wear masks indoors in public places, which sucks. I want to ask you, and
You do you think this thing is ever going away?
There is going to be
a push and pull between humans and the coronavirus variants out into the foreseeable future and I would measure that future in months and years. So anyone who imagine that, hopefully we'd be done with this thing. There are number of reasons why we will not be done with this thing the most
Obvious. Are that one. There's a significant body of humans around the world that are not vaccinated and their their ample places for this to mutate. Number two, is that the world is now interconnected. So guess what? I'm sure. I macrons already alive and well in the United States Army and I think Canada just reported a case. I mean, the odds is being contained to where's reported a recording. This Monday, this airs Thursday, they'll definitely a case by then, right? Yeah, that would probably be a case.
A yeah, and then there's also like a critical mass of unvaccinated people here in the US. And so you put all this together and the odds of this coming here to the us and being a significant factor are very, very high. And oh, by the way, if it's not Omicron, it'll be the next one. Greek letter after that, the Greek letter after that. So what we should be doing in my mind is accepting that this is
The new way of things and the new reality and then try to mitigate, but live our lives. But by the way, we shouldn't let it obsess us. We shouldn't let it, let it keep us from living Our Lives, you know, that like there's there's a risk-reward ratio to everything and the just the risk is going to be with us for a while, but we should not try and say to ourselves that like the risk is total to a point where it
The changes are behaviors or our relationships. It's all the other thing just add on that. Is that even if you are vaccinated? People are. So you're still getting it. And some people still dying from the vax is doing good, but it's not. It's not it's not foolproof at least right now, right? Yeah. That mean that, that's what the concern is about Omicron is that it's got a bunch of mutations that would make it likely to infect, someone who has certain antibodies based upon existing.
Vaccines. Now, you can have an Omicron specific vaccine that gets developed and then that would be more helpful. So that's what they're going to work on right now and we can look forward to all you're going out and getting that vaccine. Incidentally, if you're listening to this. I think that vaccines are great idea and if you're still not vaccinated, please do strongly consider doing so because it'll protect you. Hey, you might even make
Well
in the sense that maybe you'll get like the cool new Omicron or you'll get some vaccines that are, you know, like a little bit more developed or with it. Who knows. But, you know, I think vaccines are good. Good countermeasure. Just for your personal safety and health. So I was looking at the graph is the New York Times. So take that we will. But the graph of case, new cases of covid, Since since it started. Let's call it March 2nd of 2020.
How do you know when the peak of covid cases were?
Probably early last year. It was early. It was late 2020. And then the actual Peak is January 9th 2021 early this year. So it wasn't in March. What I thought was that that was the spike, the actual Spike at least Court in this like if you just Google covid cases and what they're for the New York Times, it seemed like such an outbreak and it was because we were not prepared for it. But we still and then the second we still are getting a ton of cases post vaccine and post our guests. This
Post vaccine. But in the winter months and then the second Peak was actually the summer of this year. 2021 in August and early September. So covid, still real. I think it's frustrating. I think it's frustrating for all of us. Said, this is a nuanced, right? I'm curious your take response to this. So on one hand, covid bad. It's deadly. People are dying. They're getting really sick. It's been politicized. The vaccine itself has been put aside. That is not fun.
On the other hand, this is where my questions coming. Like. We're not a we're not a communist Society. We believe in capitalism. So if people want really to live in United States, you have to work generally speaking. And if they want to work, they got to go outside and they have to work with others and that risks more covid exposure. Right? So those who can move till I got just this lifestyle I think have right. There are plenty of folks who had the means and those who wanted to were afraid of covid a and they could move they have. They moved to the suburbs. I moved to.
Places with outdoor less people more outdoor space, but many have not or cannot so. My question. I'm really want to talk about the policy ideas here. Given that this, I think you just kind of outline. This is probably our new normal for the next five years, like, maybe that's too far but it's not great. Several years and several. Yeah, number of years. If this thing's Gonna Keep mutating and we all keep
Getting sick. What are the policy ideas? I have a couple. But what what do you do if you're in charge to navigate this? Because I think what we're doing now is unsustainable where it's like don't mask up. No, no mask out. We got freaked out. Like, people are like, oh, we're coming back are not coming back. I think, I don't know. I don't know if you bigger policy ideas that navigate this new normal. Well, I heard one thing that was not great, which is that apparently there are issues of confidence.
The CDC not just in the public but in the government. Yeah, but they don't want to turn the CDC into a punching bag. And so you're looking at it being like, you know, but unfortunately public confidence is already been shaken. So if you make various recommendations, it's you know, it's tough. As you're describing. It's like wait. What did you say? What like, what did you say last time? Yeah. So the thing we have to acknowledge is that people are human. People have limited.
Ability to absorb different messages and and guidance, and, and the rest of it. And so, we should set out some broad principles around who you are. What your vulnerability level is and take it from there in my opinion. So if you're a normal person, you should expect that, you know, getting vaccinated is a good idea and that if you're vaccinated, they'll be some risk associated with certain activities.
Is that if you're not a vulnerable population, that risk will probably not be know. Anything. You can't recover from, I will say, I have friends and family members who have had long covid and it is a beast. Oh, man, toggle. Yeah, like it's terrible and they will recover. I, most people know I had covid and so I recovered fully there was a period when I was short of breath afterwards, when I was like, this had better go away. That's kind of a way. Yeah.
And then it did go away and I was very, very thankful. But you know, I know people who have still been struggling with it. I attended a memorial service of someone's mother who died of breakthrough covid. I mean I was freaking terrible and there are times I look at my mom was in her 70s and just like, retro. I mean she's been vaccinated, but you don't want, you know, anything to break through. So you want to be accepting of the limitations and fallibility of humans.
And then lay out a number of things that can be done. That could genuinely mitigate the harm. So if you are in a particular environment, I'll give an example. I went to a Dave Chappelle Show the other day concert and then they tested the heck out of us on the way in. I thought that was fine, you know, and then anyone who is in there, literally got a test and you stood there for 10 minutes while they gave you the result in Black - and so then you so then you were with a bunch of people where you had a fairly high confidence level, that they were all
Native, I think that's a fine type of ongoing precaution. Right? And then there's that accepted level of risk that we all probably need to start accepting. Is that Cobra thing, but we're not going to sit at home all day. So we're still going to go to sporting events. And so to go to concerts and restaurants and that should be the public policy guidance. It's like look there is risk, but you can't eliminate the risk, you can mitigate it. You can do various things. And so that, that should be the guidance.
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So a couple policy suggestion, my thoughts on is there a play? So one of the things you suggested on climate change was to move, Focus to Higher Ground, and press gave us some shit for that and now they're suggesting it themselves. Here we are, is, I mean, they, this is ridiculous. But I like talking about really ridiculous ideas. Is there a way to move vulnerable, populations outside of vulnerable areas. And is that worthwhile for the government to spend money on, right? So vulnerable, populations be one, older, senior?
Teens who are in highly urban areas that want to but cannot afford to move folks that are in a or maybe immuno, compromised or vulnerable. But in a close living space or something like that where they could they are they can be gainfully employed, but rather do it in a less populated urban center. Is that something we could do? Or like there's that just something that government can never execute in this idea and practice would be a hot mess. Well, you referred earlier to the fact that a lot of people have been making
Various decisions already. Yeah, I mean, people know that I'm all for putting money into people's hands. I'd be for putting money into people's hands in the lane and make it look all. Yeah. Okay. Well, I'd answer my question way simpler than I thought that yeah, you're right though. You could say, you could do something like that. Like look, here's your moving. Stipend everyone, you can do whatever you want it, but from that, but then we're reopening the economy. So if you're not in the situation, this is my needs to be used for XYZ. I don't know, or are we recommend? But you do what you want with it. I think the economy is going to be open.
For the foreseeable as well, I think in part because and there's the politics of it. We're shutting the economy down on behalf of covid is a political loser and I think politics unfortunately are. So prevalent today that Democrats are going to want to avoid that as a step. So I don't think that's going to be in the main conversation.
So this is my next kind of Concepts. Like is it just Live and Let Live then this is what Florida has been doing there. Like we take care of our most vulnerable, but the reality is we're not closing down the economy because it's impossible and there's too many businesses you'd hurt. They're already going to be hurt because people can't like people are reluctant to go outside. We can't hand strung them or answering them anymore live in that live like this is these are the risks but we have. This is our new normal Republican state or Governors have been doing this to frankly, like, ignore the mainstream. Press is Hammer them.
Are there still winning their elections and they're staying in power and with high a decent approval. Like to Santa's say, we want about him is approved reason for like five or last check pretty good. Is that where we're going like? Is that you can see the left start to be more Live and Let Live or is this I think that it's their people are going to have more forgiving attitude because of the fatigue factor, I do I think and also the politics like if you poll people and say Hey, where's covid in your issue set?
And it used to be number one. Now. It's nowhere. Near number 14, for better, for worse mean politics is driving. A lot of things nowadays. So I don't think you're going to see people go as hard and you know who I feel really bad for. I feel really bad for the health care workers. Yeah, i--'cause I know folks who are in these settings and they say, look no one's talking about it, but my hospitals overrun, like my colleagues are quitting, like my friends are all traumatized. I'm
It's like you hear that and you're like, oh no, and sometimes in environments was like I didn't even know that covid-19 through that community in that way. Yeah. So the suffering is happening in those environments and those facilities, regardless of whether the Press makes a big deal out of it or not. I feel bad for anybody working in restaurants right now or bars because you have to wear a mask in mostly States. So you're like this is faceless servant that you can't really interact with because they have a mask on. Can't wait to hear them, but the people in there don't have to worry.
Mask, which to me? I guess. It's really you're eating in a restaurant. So you're not wearing masks. Yeah, but that but like, but yeah, I don't have to wear masks if I walk in there anything either. It's not but I don't know why. That's why I think those jobs are already hard and then to be kind of like other din that way, you know, where they're so feel so separate, I guess. I don't know. It's less enjoyable experience. We can't get to know your waiter. My opinion. Maybe I'm just a awkward dad joke, type that likes it make friends. The waiter. Last thing I want to touch on your conversation with Derek.
Day talking about. And it's kind of related to this where the economy itself is now political. And you wrote an email on this and we talked we touched on a lot of my guys, guys. I think this is one of the most important ideas. I've run across in quite some time. Yeah, and it is scary as shit. It's that, you know, you imagine that that two parties are at least kind of contesting various ideas as to how to drive the economy forward, like how to make our lives better, but it turns out that at this point your opinion,
On how the economy is is contingent upon how you feel about the party in power. And so if you missed it.
When I sat down with Derek Thompson, and he pointed out this that to me, so the University of Michigan has been running consumer confidence, surveys for years and decades and there has always been
some split between how
Democrats and Republicans have perceived the economy, but that split has grown into a golf. The biggest golf ever recorded. We're right now Democrats who are asked about the economy. Say it's going great, and then
Applicants are like, oh it's terrible and there's a 49 point gap in this scale. Democrats are plus 49. Republicans, like terrible independent somewhere in between Independence. I think are a little bit closer to Democrats. I can pull the numbers up. Okay? Okay. So the number is from University of Michigan. The Democrats are at 88.4 Republicans at 37.8 for a record difference of 49 points. Independence. We're at 70. So a bit closer to
But not nearly as high. So that plus 49 is the biggest Gap in recorded history of the University of Michigan consumer, survey gap of who thinks the economy is doing well. Yes, actual question. Yes, and and so, then you think okay. Well maybe Democrats is live in flourishing areas on the coast blah blah blah, but it turns out that the Gap in October 2019. The second biggest ever recorded was Republicans at 119.
Add 70, 1.6 and Independence at 100. So Republicans were plus 47 in October of 2019. I think about October 20 1998, Trump. So when Donald Trump is President, Republicans are like, things are great and Democrats alike. God things suck and then it switches. And now it's like and you know why this is, I mean, here's the working Theory. I have as to why this is that if you turn on Fox news right now, what do you see?
Record inflation, people stat Democratic Leadership and Democratic Leadership. And then you get a call from the University of Michigan being like, hey, how're things going like, oh, they're terrible. Mmm, you know, and if you turn on the news on the other side, they'll be like, oh there's some inflation, but it's supply chain disruptions and it's going to ease and you know, the markets are good and you know, like the economic performance. So like we're getting fed alternate versions of reality now that are so powerful.
They actually have overridden, any kind of day-to-day exposure to the economy in terms of your perception of how things are going. Hmm, that this is some dark shit because it means that the parties aren't even going to have to pretend to argue to compete on policy. It's literally just whose narrative is stronger and a journalist in Politico and 2020. Michael Grunwald wrote. There is a line of thinking that America has entered a kind of postmodern political era, where the appearance of
Governing is just as politically powerful as actual governing. Because most Americans now live in partisan, spin, bubbles, that insulate, insulate them from facts, on the ground. That's awful. And I quoted this in my book, because I thought it was such a powerful idea, where it's like, hey, it turns out that actual policies immaterial is just, how do I make you feel? How are the aligned media organizations broadcasting? How you should feel about the economy?
So this is scary shit. This is a very, very dystopian and Derek. Also was frightened by it because + 47 + 49 based upon party. What Derek said was, I don't even need to ask you about what you think about the economy. I can just ask you, how you feel about Joe Biden, and if you like Joe Biden, you'll be like, dammit like economy great. And if you don't like Joe, Biden, demand economy, terrible,
The internet right now.
Gives us all. And now particularly the younger Generations was growing up with it in their DNA, in a way, right? Part of who their personalities. It gives us all, essentially, whatever we want whenever we want it, like, not everything. But it's getting in that place, right? Whether it's I want food on a man. I want to close on the man. I want to watch this video. I watched Capital like what? Like whatever I love, it's my human instinct. And normally that's, in my opinion. That's bad for, let's call human morality and
Savior in the sense that most humans, like, patience is a good virtue. I think anyone that the single biggest determining your success in life is your ability to delay gratification. Yeah. It's the, what is it? The marshmallow test? Yeah, which is one reason why I get so irritated on my kids because they failed the mushroom like you had a very bad at this time man. You got time now, they're so young. The marshmallow test apparently is for kids though. Yeah. That's it - yeah. Anyway continue. I'm sure most of the youth in America are filling the marshmallow test right now and tough to blame them because you'd
Ed on the trail parents are outgunned, great parents. And I mean, the only way to be a truly great parent. I guess, is to keep the kids away from the internet and this have it whenever you want and that's almost impossible nowadays to. So my point is, if that's the trend, we get whatever we want, when we want it, whatever you want, when we want over and over and over, it probably isn't going to change. Like, I mean, my question for you is like play that out and what does it look like? It probably looks like we're talking about 10 50, 100 years from now.
People start to join their own virtual governments because that's what they want when they want it. Their virtual societies their, their new friends and for only people that agree with them because that's what they want when they want it. Like what do and new businesses and Brands and companies start catering to these like Niche personality types, where Joe Biden is King and Donald Trump's a devil and vice versa and the other end, and that and it's going to be wait. Wait, wait, wait, I've got a trap laid out. I've got it. I've got it. You know, how there was a joke. It wasn't even a joke, I think.
When Donald Trump stopped being president, where they were just going to build them a new Oval Office in Florida, and then he's just going to govern from there. Yeah, there was a joke. They're building in, Marla go or never. Yeah, we what we should do is we should just have different versions of reality and broadcast to people, you know, I was just thinking to myself, like, how could you get everyone to think the economy is great, just like, just to have to White House's. It does have like, here's your reality. You happy. They're like, yeah, like great one. Yeah, my name is not that bad. I mean it.
Is it? I mean, this is I maybe it's that level propaganda to own order to do it. I don't know. But play my. What's my fear is like how this plays stop at to why not have fun at 5.20. Yeah, and if you're talking about you know what I think I want to do some more research on our takes, we haven't given you our takes on web 3 in the metaverse. So for you crypto nerds and I say nerds as if it's not going to be mainstream sooner rather than later, but for those of you who are passionate about that, I think we will dive in but not necess owed, but I think if this
You virtual world start becoming a thing and if that's where Facebook's going and Black Mirror episodes become real life for you. Can just upload your subconscious to different parts of reality. Why not? I don't know. Like we just force ourselves to make this reality. So terrible and that's where it goes. Well, I made this argument in the war on normal people. I said, billions of dollars going to be spent on making these Virtual Worlds that are extraordinarily enticing and pleasant now, and the real world is going to get less and less Pleasant.
You know, this is before covid and the rest of it, that's true. And so which do you think is going to win over time? And I thought it was obvious that eventually a lot of people are going to be plugged into Virtual Worlds because the virtual world can be whatever you want and you know, the president can be whoever you want to maybe, I mean into this point - turns out that how you feel about who's in Power Parent? Like really affects how you think that everything is going. So, I think your vision is well-taken Zack. Is that like
Why do I care who's in that white house when I can just put the goggles on and then I got a new one. And if the only thing that really matters in that equation and that scenario is that you're buying more Bounty paper towels on Amazon or buying whatever hypercar, you know, like you're still consuming in the attention economy. Then it will happen, right? Like I you know, well, this is one very compelling reason to why when people are like, oh, I don't pay attention to politics. It's entirely rational. It's like if
If you pay a lot of attention to politics, it can depress you. It can infuriate does not. Can it statistically proven to lower your happiness by like 8 to 11%? Yeah. So people like, oh, I don't pay attention to that shit and be like, I am aren't that smart. So that's why a lot of people don't pay attention politics. Like you there. He's just kind of trolling everybody. Yeah. I got that. I mean for me to it's like I pay attention to this stuff but one of the things I really try and do is not let it affect my mood. Yeah, which is, you know, like it's not
Always easy. And I think that's one of the things about forward to, which is like, look, we're Lucid. We're rational. We just don't want to let this stuff. Make me sad and mad and turn me against other people and generally be distraught. Mmm, you know, it which is a highly unusual approach to politics because the most effective emotions right. Now people can use on, you are fear and anger now. And so, if we're not trying to make you afraid or angry,
You know, I will say there are times when I do get angry at, just how ridiculous our system is and how dysfunctional at all is, and the incentives around polarization are so strong, like the billions billions of dollars. And like, what we have to go create our own marketplace around votes and media and donors like you billion dollar market places on either side of you. And then you're going to try and create this new one, which by the way is totally vital and it turns out that, you know, 62 percent of Americans want some version of
44% you know would love to have another tent to rest under so but it turns out that those people are disproportionately smart enough to stay the fuck away from politics.
Ha ha like that. That's like the great
irony of it. Yeah, the fear I have in the metaverse. We will dive in - but it's like
If capitalism in the markets are untethered and just able to build this, you know, with no government anything, you know, they'll build it, you know, it'll happen. Like, I mean, they'll find a way to make VR better and like, I mean, it's not it's not a matter of if it's when, right? And I still like the world, we live in, I know, I mean there's plenty people don't and that's maybe part of what's driving it, but I still think what we got is worth saving. I know you do too.
Much rather invest in trying to make the real world more pleasant and harmonious and habitable rather than head to the virtual world. I make one up. Yea yea, though, the virtual world is going to exist. It's going to be real, you know, we have to try and make it as good as it can be. But between those two priorities certainly the real world is a lot more important in my opinion. Amen. I don't want Ready Player one. We're heading to Ready Player one. I'm a very smooth.
I wasn't positive for a wrap. What do what make you happy this week? I had a wonderful holiday. So I'm actually going to throw out something that cool that idea for. I hope that listeners find this interesting. So I'm considering co-authoring a political thriller about 2024 that's going to try and forecast. Some of the likely scenarios, of course, you'd fictionalize it and you know, change names and like smash.
Characters together. But I think this could be a public service and fascinating because if you look at what's going to happen, it's not going to be great. So we might as well start trying to play it out. I kind of want to play it out for myself. So if you're interested in novel political thriller like this, you know, like I might be trying to bring it to you. I don't know if that's fun. I love that Andrew Yang. The political thriller writer. I hope it is.
Somewhat. I hope it's almost as good as your first thriller concept which is blood caucus which I think we've talked about on this podcast. So blood comes out first Concepts. If you like this, you like his book. There's a movie idea where it was a horror movie, set in Iowa on the presidential candidates. Get killed one by one. Yep, which would be a great fucking movie and they give me a hilarious movie. Judd. Apatow if you listen to this, I think it's got your name written all over it. So blood clot.
This is one thought 2024 the novel be another. Yeah, like, you know always exciting things and with a purpose behind them. It's good fun here at forward. I love that. And on a more fun note, the Buffalo Bills, play the new play, the New England Patriots, New England Patriots Monday Night Football in Buffalo. I'm going let me just say this. I doubled build all the time here, but I can feel like I have a specific time to talk about it right now because everyone hates the Patriots. And so we're all Buffalo Bills fans.
America this Monday. And I'll be there in person. It's going to be 20 degrees outside and probably sleeting, or whatever. It's going to do in Lake near Lake Erie, but go bills. Screw the paths. I'm excited. Anyway, that's the give me happy. That's why I need the real verse not the metaverse because I gotta watch my bills in real life, you know. Yes, let's
go real world. All right guys. We love you. Thank you for tuning in. We'll see you Monday.
