What our family it's episode 109 of the genius life?
What up, everybody? Hope this episode of the show finds you in good health and in good spirits. I'm Max Luca Veer filmmaker health and science journalist. And the author of The New York Times best-selling book genius foods and the national bestseller the genius life on this episode of the show. I'm super excited to welcome a truly heavy hitter in the health and nutrition space David a Kessler he served
As commissioner of the US Food and Drug Administration aka the FDA under President George HW Bush and Bill Clinton. He's a pediatrician and has been the dean of the medical schools at Yale and the University of California San Francisco and his latest book is called Fast carbs slow carbs the simple truth about food weight and disease this episode of the show is all about the very nature of food processing and how ultra-processed Foods above and beyond the calorie.
Content that they possess are in a way inherently fattening. We also talked about his views on cardiovascular disease and he takes a very strong stance against a hotly debated Topic in health discourse cholesterol, and we also talked about the healthy at any size movement and you get a guy who has been steeped in public health policy for decades at this point giving you his thoughts on whether or not you can truly be healthy at any size which
What some people especially on social media seem to Advocate these days? So we're going to talk about a lot. There's a lot of really good information in this episode and through it all. I want you to remember to think critically this episode of the show is brought to you by my good friends at Magic spoon magic spoon makes a line of super tasty high-protein grain free sugar free cereals. That's right cereals. When was the last time you thought you could have cereal while living the genius Live Well, I love magic spoon as
they treat it is it basically tastes like the cereals that I grew, you know, the cereal that I grew up with cinnamon toast crunch Frosted Flakes, but without any of the garbage ingredients and honestly the cereals they taste amazing. It's like the equivalent of having a protein shake but in the form of cereal, I love to throw some ice cold almond milk in there and their new formulation. Actually the flavoring bleeds out like comes out into the milk. So you get that if you go for their chocolate flavor you get chocolate flavored milk.
After you've eaten all the cereal so it's super tasty. It's a great way to boost your protein intake. I know I was having a conversation with my friend Sal over at mind pump who is also a big fan of magic spoon great way to hit your protein macros. If you've got protein goals that you've set for yourself and and again just super tasty as a treat. They've taken the place of any sort of like dessert for me after dinner if you'd like to try any of magic spoons flavors.
Again, I think my favorites are I go back and forth. Sometimes I prefer the cinnamon other times. I prefer frosted. They're all really really tasty. You can go to magic spoon.com and use promo code genius and you'll get to save on shipping free shipping. If you use promo code genius at Magic spoon.com. So head over there and yeah, thank you to Magic spoon for sponsoring this episode of the show. All right, we're just seconds away from my chat with pediatrician author former FDA commissioner, David Kessler.
Again, this is a I mean, this is a really excellent conversation that we had. I'm excited for you to listen to it before we get to that. I want to show some love to cat in San Fran who left this glowing review of the show on iTunes cat and send friend wrote Max Luca viewers, the genius life provides positive science-based easy self care tips from a wide variety of Wellness practitioners who he invites to his podcast for each episode expect to be challenged nurtured challenge.
Nurtured and motivated to make Positive Choices on your daily path moving forward and check out Max has outstanding book books genius foods and the genius life, which have helped me immensely. Thank you. Thank you Kat and San Fran I really appreciate that. You've taken the time to leave that rating and review means a lot to me that, you know, all this work that I put into the podcast into writing. My books is not in vain and and I just I love hearing that so thank you and to all you guys out there who've taken the time to leave a rating and review. I see you I hear you. I appreciate
It you thank you so much for spreading the word about what we're doing here. The show is growing week by week. It's just it's so amazing to have new ears on the show and to see your responses on social media. It's incredible. So just keep doing what you're doing. It's phenomenal and and it does not go unnoticed. So now without further Ado, let's dive in to this chat with David Kessler author of fast carbs slow carbs and
Yeah, let's do it. Well, dr. David Kessler. Thank you so much for being with me on the genius life. Welcome to the
show. Thanks for having me.
Well, I'm really excited to do a deep dive into your research and your background and and to talk about your new book called Fast carbs slow carbs. This is very apropos timing I think because I've recently just become very interested in what you write about in your book and that is the nature of food processing and the and the
Food system as it currently stands and how that's contributing to chronic disease and obesity and things like that. So so yeah, I'm excited. I mean, why don't we begin with your background? I mean, you've got this extensive history and would love to just kind of share with my readers where you're where you're coming
from.
So I'm a pediatrician was commissioner of the Food and Drug Administration and wet wall commissioner, you know engage in some of the great public health issues. When I started as FDA commissioner, there was only one drug for HIV on the market didn't work very well. And by the time I left there were 17.
Rugs on the market changed not a cure but change that from a death sentence. We also took on probably the most controversial battle that we had was the battle against cigarettes to try to regulate e-cigarettes as drugs and that led to a significant change Public Health over the last several decades.
Decades, but one of the things we also did was you know, when you pick up a package food or almost any product in the supermarket, you see the nutrition facts label. So we did that a while at FDA to give consumers information and a lot of people use that every day in some ways. It's become iconic.
But over the last several decades the issue is, you know, most Americans on average continue to gain weight. We have this epidemic of both pre-diabetes and diabetes and cardiovascular disease. So we really haven't gotten to the really the root of much of this metabolic chaos that we're inflicting on.
On ourselves. So that was really the background in which I decided to spend the last several years trying to get at the issue of why why why it's so hard to control our weight. I struggle with it personally.
Yeah. I mean, I just want to commend you and everybody involved for the for the u.s. Nutritions nutrition facts label. I mean we were so privileged today that you know, we love to
Hate on the label for all of the you know, I guess the the shortcomings of the label right? But I mean you really start to appreciate the u.s. Nutrition facts label when you travel abroad. I mean I get to travel a lot thanks to my you know to my work and when I'm looking at food packages abroad, I really miss the clarity and the practicality of the nutrition facts label because I mean seemingly when I go to other countries all I can see are the nutrition
Acts per 100 grams of food, which in my brain, I'd have no concept of how that's going to translate to what I'm actually ingesting.
You know that label that nutrition facts label almost didn't happen. We had a fight the food industry fact took it all the way up to the Oval Office because we wanted that nutrition facts information on all processed foods and the industry orbit of
Agriculture for thus and I still remember me picture the scene. It was President Bush the father Dan Quayle the vice president of the United States Marlin Fitzwater the press secretary James Baker who was Chief of Staff Madigan who was secretary of agriculture Sullivan, who was the Secretary of HHS six guys who've never cooked in their lives deciding
The faith of the food label and at one point the secretary of agriculture said, mr. President, you're not going to make literally millions and millions of packaged food products and the entire food industry change all those labels and I had been with the the kids to McDonald's and I don't know if you know that used to have tray liners.
Those paper tray liner is on on the trays and we had worked with them and got the nutrition facts panel for some of their Foods on those tray liners and took out that tray liner showed it to the president said mr. President if it's good enough for McDonald's. It should be good enough for the Department of Agriculture and the president sided with us and that's how we got the nutrition facts panel, but the nutrition facts panel.
Well, I think you know while certainly increased transparency to a considerable extent really miss the fundamental Missing Link in our diet nutrition facts panel focuses on calories. It focuses on fact and it focuses on sugar that is not where the certainly not the whole story. Hmm.
Yeah, well, I definitely want to get into that where I think you're heading is the the fact that our food today has become ultra-processed and that an ultra processed food affects our biology including our metabolism a lot differently than say the same number of calories from a minimally processed food. Is that an accurate statement?
That's exactly correct and you can tell that
From the food label and then the other thing you can tell from the food label is where the major The Missing Link made no doubt that fat sugar and salt are key and they go to palatability. But look where most of the calories are coming from.
Even if the majority of calories are coming from Stockbridge. Hmm, and we consume, you know, approximately a thousand calories a day. I mean think hamburger buns fries pizza dough baked goods and it's not just the starch. But as you said it's that Ultra processing of that starch, so it's the starch and the sugar
That together and sort of endless eating throughout the day. No one really asked scientifically. What's the effect of flooding our bodies with this constant stream of what that sugar and that starch end up being converted to that which is this rapidly absorbable glucose.
And what's that biological effect?
Meaning of all that glucose that we're absorbing when you know hundreds of years ago when we worked in the fields or hunted for our food and we were not in a positive energy balance that we were lucky to have enough food to eat. Right and we'll wait stayed in either. We were you know, fighting to maintain our weight or weight was relatively stable process, you know,
It's you know, we're not as big a problem. But now in the context of a positive energy balance, which most of us live in a me again, this doesn't apply to everybody and there's about 15 percent of the population who for whom food really is not and weight as is not much of an issue. They just eat in order to have a fuel
They don't struggle with their weight, but for the vast majority of Americans mean for whom weight is an issue. The fact is it's that starch and sugar those fast carbs that rapidly absorbable glucose. It's as if the poison were hiding in plain sight.
Wow, you know, I read an article. I believe it was in the New York Times that posited I forget.
Journal the article, you know, what's research the article was based on but it said that by the year 2030 half one and two adults are going to be obese not just overweight but obese and the you know another I think it was one in four going to be severely obese. So I mean this is shocking and the fact that 60 percent of our calories today now come from these foods that you're talking about ultra-processed Foods. It's clear that they are a major contributing.
Factor to disease so what you know, we've been processing foods for hundreds of thousands of years, right? I mean, we've been cooking food grinding our own grains and things like that. What is it about, you know modern times, you know, what's changed over the past hundred years that's leading to this epidemic of
Obesity and chronic and Associated chronic
diseases, right? I think there's several things that are different one is is we just talked about the most of us are in this positive energy balance. So again when I didn't have enough food this rapidly absorbable glucose didn't have is great effect. Now when I'm in this positive energy balance and rapidly
probable glucose this constant strain
You know more calories than I need more calories that I'm burning I have to do something with that rapidly absorbable glucose. I can't just burn them. I can't just exercises and you know, the body functions are not going to use them all up. So when you add that rapidly absorbable glucose those processed carbs, they drive me again. There's a number of different mechanisms by
I think which they work but those process crops add that them to a pre-diabetic or you know even worse. I mean people who have diabetes and you're just adding fuel to the fire. All right, many of our body what we've done this to ourselves. I mean for the vast majority our bodies are in metabolic chaos only about 12% of us are metabolically.
Healthy when you look at basic guidelines for weight or blood lipids or blood pressure. So and this is all the the result of in an environment of Plenty ending these process carbs this rapidly absorbable glucose and you see the mechanism how these work is that they first of all processes
Assessing makes food soft. You don't have to chew, it goes down in a rush. It probably is related to eating rate. So I eat faster and I can I can the eating rate so I consume more but the the food gets absorbed so early on in the GI tract that stimulates certain GI hormones that stimulates my insulin creates this insulin.
Resistance insulin doesn't work as well. I get caught in this vicious cycle of hyperinsulinemia, but it's also that the food get so rapidly absorbed. Not only do I absorb a hundred percent of the calories, but the food doesn't get down to the lower part of my GI tract. So I don't stimulate these other GI hormones that give me any sense of satiety or film fullness so I get caught in this vicious cycle.
Big no mistake. It's this rapidly absorbable glucose. They were just flooding our bodies with and it's become such a large part of our diet. I mean you could almost have predicted that this would be the what would happen. If we think about how we became as a country this agricultural Powerhouse made once the backbone of our agricultural economy.
It goes back to George Washington days. Go to Mount Vernon look at at the main house and you can see the wheat carved into the ceiling with the hope that we would become the wheat the grain provider to the world and what we've done is to take that kernel of wheat, which occurs you know in a very
Pat granule and through food processing destroyed the structure of that food so that we increase the surface area so that it is rapidly absorb. It is absorbed higher-energy. I track that stimulates this hyperinsulinemia that again wasn't a problem when we were living, you know barely had enough calories.
But once we got to that Tipping Point where we had more calories that we needed that really was the poison in the
diet. Wow, you know, I love talking to you because not only are you a scientist in a medical doctor, but you're just steeped in the public health implications of you know, dietary guidelines and and ultimately food marketing and things like that so to play and I love you know that
Our that you express the Nuance of this all being context-dependent. So whoa, I mean, what would you say to you like, you know Skeptics who would argue that in a hypo caloric condition that there's which you've which you've already expressed but in a hypochlorite condition that you know processed food is not harmful, you know, it's merely a function of calories in calories out, you know.
If you're if you're eating too much, then it becomes a problem. But if you're just simply moderating your portions and there's nothing inherently wrong with eating a processed food.
Maybe I'm not sure we know enough what's the effect of that rapidly absorbable glucose and bombarding even in a hypo caloric state?
This constant rise this rise and fall constantly of insulin. What are they? What does that rapidly absorbable glucose due to the beta cells, you know, we always thought of the pancreas we've always thought that okay the pancreas can handle everything but we're seeing insulin resistance, which is really when insulin, you know stops functioning as well as it.
Should we see insulin resistance? Not just in obese, although that's certainly where there's a predominance but you do see some insulin resistance and people who are thin and you know the thought the the conventional wisdom was that you became obese and then you became insulin-resistant. I think there's some emerging science and it's not clear yet that this constant flooding of the
Lee with rapidly absorbable glucose which is the result of sugar which is the result of processed starch which is the result of this process starch in this altar processing. I mean, I just think that there is a real toxicity that we're seeing from having the diet be the these literally
Lee poison stem to the to the pancreatic cell is a real toxicity as glucose toxicity that I think can put us at risk see whether you're a beast. So you're not it not a tease and I think that the what's happened was, you know, we the food industry. I mean they deserve you know, a lot of credit food is safer. It could be shipped over long distances we can afford food.
There is not as much hunger as there was a hundred years or 200 years ago, but it's the destruction of the structure of the food. You just take that we Colonel, you know, look at the processing and look at how cereal is is made the kind of Extrusion the pressure the thermo mechanical forces on that.
Well that increase the surface area that make all that that endosperm that gold if you were in that wheat and we've been able to mine that endosperm that storage of that plant that is pure energy processing it you open up that Colonel to such an extent that the surface area is such that are enzymes devour all of it mean in an
That in a wish and that has real effects on blood glucose and the downstream effects of insulin and hyperinsulinemia in diabetes. Do we understand? This happens so fast in the body and simultaneously that it's hard sorting out exactly what drives why but I'm absolutely convinced for those of us who struggle with ro8 there were caught in this vicious cycle of obesity.
City rapidly processed highly absorbable glucose elevated blood glucose elevated insulin insulin resistance. We get caught in those Vicious Cycles and that's why once you start struggling with your weight and gaining your weight. You find it very difficult to keep it off. I mean and we done this to ourselves. This is a man-made epidemic.
Yeah, I couldn't agree more and you also mention the fact that the mere processing effects satiety signals in the body. And of course the fact that these foods are often hyper palatable like they're just difficult to they take real mental muscle to moderate our consumption of these
Foods. Well, you know, look at what drives that palatability no doubt that that palatability is fat and sugar fat and Salt Fat sugar and salt but what's the
Harrier
Of that fat sugar and soul mean what's the the base? I mean you look at starch and you say well starch is this Bland? You remember kindergarten we used to play with starch and make it into a paste and had virtually no taste where the food industry is learned to do is to use that starch actually to chemically modify it so it's a functional but to add fat and sugar and salt to that starch but
That starch is as much the problem and you look at what's the driver of obesity and diabetes. It's not just the fat sugar and salt it's the fat sugar installed on that base of this endless amount of starch hamburger rolls pizza dough fries that were consuming
one of the other holes that you poked in the the obsession.
Ian or I think the when people place too much focus on calories as the sole metric by which they used to assess food quality, you point out in the book that not all of the calories that we consume are actually absorbed by us and the mere processing of food dictates the proportion of calories that we will actually end up ultimately absorbing.
Processed foods you can be sure you're absorbing a hundred percent of the calories may eat whole food. I with with the fiber and the structure the food relatively intact obviously have to have some cooking in some processing to be able to digest and make the food palatable. But if you can get food to the lower part of your GI tract, you know much of that fiber is not a that
Is not absorbed and there are resistant starches that are transformed by the bacteria in the low of God, but it's not a one-for-one calorie consumption made but processed foods, you can be sure for every calorie that enters your mouth you're absorbing. That's not the case when you're eating Foods or whole foods that have structure to it that are
Unprocessed.
I think this is a great opportunity to bring up a study that just came out. I believe from the USDA and they found that nuts have a significantly lower calorie burden than was previously thought cashews. They detailed have about 16 percent fewer calories walnuts have 21 percent fewer almonds have 32 percent fewer and they did this they found this by pretty gross study, but I mean needed to be done. They
looked at the amount of calories that it was assumed that that subjects were consuming based on the amount of nuts that they consumed and then they looked at their stool and they found that there was still a significant proportion of there was a significant number of calories in the stool after consuming whole nuts and so is amazing because if you just think about the calories count on on your serving size it offers you nothing in terms of what
What may or may not be absorbed in your GI tract and yeah, just just utterly fascinating
destroy the structure of the food destroy the structure of the Integrity of that food. Right and the food's going to get more rapidly absorbed leave some of that structure intact don't increase the surface area of the cop its complex structural physiology and how enzymes
James can get into food and digest it and how quickly that can work. But if you can get food lower onto down your GI tract without it because it's not been rapidly processed. You always certainly going to have an increase senses of fullness your GI hormones. The GOP ones will give you a greater sense of satiety and and you're not going to be absorbing one-for-one the number of
calories. Yeah.
And unfortunately the that that that recount doesn't apply to nut Butters why because peanut butters are processed because they're essentially predigested for you. But when you take the whole nut and you chew it though, you know, you're leaving particles that as you mentioned, you know, remain undigested through the through the GI tract
and no one asks who has two hundred years. No one asked. What what's the real?
fact of that processing, you know, we always be divided food up in the fat and sugar and two complex carbohydrates into protein but complex carbohydrate, you know, it was just the the chemical entity was what we were focusing on we weren't focusing on the structure of the food and how that structure affected our physiology and yet you can't tell from looking at
At the food label. This is this thing called carbohydrates, but you can't tell what percentage of bad a processed carbohydrates fact, you can tell at all what the extent of the processing is.
So let's go into what you know, what are some examples of fast carbs in the modern food environment and then on the flip side some examples of slow carbs and the kinds of foods that you recommend basing one's diet
around
to virtually anything in a box you have to assume is a has fast carbs in the important thing is, you know, I will take some responsibility then there's you know, a lot of focus on sugar and no doubt that Sugar dry is this
but it's all the starches as well as the sugar that's where the processing is. And the reality is that much of that is flour. And it doesn't, you know, we talked about Ultra processing but you know most baked goods that that flower is going to be gelatinize and went to rapidly absorbent and no one's going to cut it out. I think it's impossible to say, you know, cut out all fast car.
Cut out all sugar all starch and you know the the show, but the fact is that that flour and starch and sugar and all that white stuff does add up I mean and convert into rapidly absorbable, hookah. So what are you left with look the the best slow carb is vegetables and legumes?
I mean those are carbohydrates but there's there's either less starch or their structure so that those vegetables and legumes. I mean are clearly carbohydrates, but they are slowly digested if they did just that at all because they have high in fact, they're high in fiber so you can be sure that vegetables and starches that there are searching grains. The sure has not
Destroyed, you know Rye buckwheat Winona that do not have the amount of rapidly absorbable glucose associated with that but the safest slow carbs are vegetables and legumes
vegetables love that you blow the lid off of the notion that a whole grain or whole wheat bread. You know that these
Are are actually Health Foods. Is it is there any bread? I mean, I personally don't consume bread. And if I do it's going to be usually a bread made with a, you know, a course like almond flour or a coconut flour, but for people that you know that enjoy bread. I mean, what recommendation would you make is there? Is there any safe bread?
Well, there are breads that you know certain bakeries are focusing on more whole intact.
Grains as the components the traditional German Pumpernickel rye bread not you know the commercial types, but that bread that has that increased density where that Colonel has not just been pulverized that is key. But you're right. I mean, it's just you know, and I'm not saying you have to cut out all
all you know all flour or bread but I think markedly cutting back especially if you struggle with weight, it's one of the reasons why we haven't, you know talked about it and I think they get a lock right? It's not the whole story but this push toward low carb, right? I mean, I think that is the reason why low carb what sir?
When you look at wait, certainly if you look at treating diabetes the best way to treat a diabetic is to put them on a low-carb diet. Now, there's some important caveats what we mean by a low-carb diet, but the reality is that flower that is making up that bread that's adding to that rapidly absorbable glucose and we have to
face that
Yeah, well, what would those what would those I'm glad you brought up the low carb diet because a lot of my listeners, you know are interested in low carb eating. What would you say some of those caveats are
well, the issue is what are we agree on? What are we don't agree. The one thing I think we can agree on and I think most people in the nutrition Community. I think we've been very confusing is we have to reduce or eliminate rapidly absorbable.
And reduce the amount of fats carbs. I think there's I think I can probably get almost Universal agreement among the nutrition Community. They haven't come out and said it but I think that's the first step the problem is what do you substitute if you cut that out?
So I've spent a lot of time studying not only weight not only metabolic disease such as diabetes. But as a clinician I care a lot about cardiovascular disease and here's the rub. Here's where the complexity, you know increases exponentially we can
If we put our minds to it in our lifetimes eliminate after ask Roddick cardiovascular disease, and that's a big statement, but I'm not one for women by engaging in hype. We now know.
That the number of LDL particles I'm talking I'm not talking specifically about cholesterol because it's really not cholesterol, but they are LDL number more specifically something scientifically called April B, which is a protein on the surface of those LDL particles.
I mean we want to you want to wipe out a thorough strata card disease or you want to get this is always going to be some residual be they be a 20-30 percent residual amount, but we can wipe out just as we did with tobacco and have an effect on lung cancer and heart disease if we can get everyone's LDL down in this country.
We could basically see the vast majority of atherosclerosis and heart disease disappear. So, what does that mean from a nutrition perspective?
How do you reduce LDL so there's really two choices the most effective diet to reduce LDL is a vegetarian diet that reduces LDL by about on average it can reduce to 40% or so. And now that may not be enough and for some people to get their LDL down even more significantly. They want to go on drugs and
You know, so be it for them. The problem with the low carb Community is the many of them have also embraced the idea that cutout blow carbs could cut out a fast carbs I go low carb, but you can eat as much saturated fat as you want and the problem with that when you look at the clinical data, it's that saturated fat.
Either keeps your LDL pretty flat or increases it somewhere between on average about ten percent. Some people are more, you know as up to 30% So I my goal as a clinician is to get everyone else's LDL down. If we want to wipe out cardiovascular disease and saturated fat is certainly not going in that direction. Now, my first priority is to cut out all these fast carbs, but I think that at the end of the day if there's three simple
This is the purpose meaning of the book many of their there's three simple things that you can do to dramatically affect your health and I'm not talking about any puffy. These are things that could transform Health in the United States, you know markedly reduced fast carbs lower LDL and engage in moderate intensity exercise to keep your insulin sensitivity.
T if we all did those three things now again, they take different strategies to do each one. And the problem with diets is they tend to focus on one thing reduce this reduce pass carbs, but you can't just do that yet. You have to also watch your LDL and if your L you want to mean if you see your LDL go up you have to address the way you can reduce.
Sure risk of cardiovascular disease of heart attacks. I mean in stroke getting your LDL down is absolutely key. We now know that the number of LDL particles is causal as it relates to heart disease and if we get it mean eliminate fast carbs, but if you're eating saturated fat and your LDL is not is not down.
You know pretty low. You need to go see your doctor and it just get that
adjusted.
Now you you brought up the number of particles. So when people are looking at their labs, for example, what specifically are we what numbers are we specifically talking about? Are we talking about the LDL P.
So again, people are not going to bail DLP a probie. That's the you know, I don't think we're going to make people into
The pathologist nor should they be but I think you know and this may be aggressive but if you can get LDL and ldl-c down which is a common measurement down certainly below a hundred. If not, and if you're at risk factors down to 70, I mean, that's the real goal. I mean talk to any cardiologist and they will privately tell you that they're monitoring moderating their LDL numbers.
L DL P apob those are for the researchers. Just get your LDL down
interesting. Yeah, I mean I would place myself in the in the camp of people who advocate for low, you know low carb diets, and I've never been you know, I've never advocated for consumption of you know, excessive amounts of saturated fat because I'm with you, you know, and people are different people have different genes that dictate how they metabolize these fats.
And you know what these fats are going to do to their lipids. So I think that's a that's a you know, I like that that recommendation. What does the source of saturated fat matter in your view? I mean, you know, you take a while. Yeah, sorry,
you know, I'm interrupting you. I apologize. You know, I wish I wish I was smart enough some of the epidemiology tends to suggest the dairy does.
Doesn't have the same kind of Burden with the overall goal is again get your LDL down. The fact is the lower you get your LDL the lower you can your risk will be. I mean every time we do another clinical study and this all comes from the you know, the large clinical studies that we mandated when I was at FDA to study cardiovascular drug, and I'm not here pushing.
Products that's not that's the last thing that I do, but the fact is when you look at the clinical data.
The lower you get LDL will lower the risk and it keeps on going it's dramatic and it's not just that than its other lipid-lowering drugs the Newell lipid-lowering drugs you get LDL down and now I have some questions about safety. I mean down in the 2030 range. It doesn't seem to be any major effects. I mean, there are some some concerns some signals may be here there but they haven't been borne out. But for the you know, the majority of
Us we get our LDL down either by diet or by pharmacology. I don't care because if we can get her ldls down we can wipe out cardiovascular. I throw strata cardiovascular
disease very interesting going back to slow carbs. There is a role for fibrous non-starchy fiber containing fruits and vegetables in the lowering of LDL cholesterol right isn't there.
When we consume higher fiber foods don't they have the effect of being able to trap LDL in the gut so that we pass it
exactly and it mean if there is any hero in this nutrition World in this modern environment of positive energy balance where our bodies are in metabolic chaos. It's the natural fiber and food. I'm not a big believer.
Her and you know just taking processed foods and adding some soluble fiber to it and saying its high fiber. That's not what I'm talking about. I think those are gimmicky and that's not where I want to go. But as part of the structure of foods you are you've hit the nail on the
head.
Yeah, I love the mechanism there. I mean if you could explain it that would be that would be amazing when we eat high fiber foods. Basically, it causes this release of or they the fibers essentially trapped bile acids, which disallows LDL which is used to create these acids right from from getting resorbed. Is that is that
correct? Yeah. I mean II think the fatty acids in
Certainly a part of that LDL much of the LDL is made internally and we used to think it was just cholesterol. That was the problem is really not cholesterol. It's the LDL particle, you know, the certainly a cholesterol is a part of that particle, but you're right you decrease those saturated fatty acids from entering being absorbed me through that fiber trapping those fatty acids your
going to be able to lower your LDL and whether that's enough clinically, you know, the the problem we have is you know, what I've you know, I've talked to the great cardiologist the the you know, the statins and those drugs are very powerful. The fact is you can't I wish I could just tell you to worry about one nutrient, but that's just not the when you have diseases that are as diverse is obesity and diabetes.
CDs and after sclerotic heart disease, there are a number of factors that go in to that idealogy
just to play devil's advocate for a second. I mean like LDL is is being made by our livers on a constant basis. The I mean the way you talked about LDL it makes it sound like it's all bad but isn't LDL something that we need to sustain life.
The LDL particle is
Is is in fact the garbage particle? You don't need that now you may be thinking about cholesterol that goes into certain membrane formation and other lipids but the LDL particle you don't need. In fact people who are born without them have virtually no cardiovascular disease those who have with something called a beta lipoprotein
anemia.
Super interesting. Well a lots lots of food for thought in the book Fast Car slow carbs. You also talked about the healthy at any size movement and it becomes clear pretty quickly that you're not you're not a big fan of that messaging. Can you talk a little bit about that?
I would love to be able to reassure reassure people that you can be Abby's and you can be healthy and I wish I could reassure myself.
Myself of that that you know at a certain point in your life that may be true. But when you study the data and I have done this as we age that catches up with us and I think that that excess energy that we carry around really has profound complications, especially over decades.
each of carrying that
excess weight
very interesting yeah there's I mean there's definitely a push online you know on social media I think too you know for body well there seems to be to conflate conflating ideas that are that are becoming increasingly conflated one that there is you can be healthy at any size but then also that you you know that there's this morale
you know Factor that's thrown into the mix and I think you know it too it's a conversation that requires Nuance nobody should be shamed for their for their weight obviously because they I think most people have well as you talk about you know have inherited a food environment that basically implores them to overeat at every turn but that being said I think we need to take accountability for our for our health and
You know get shifting our way to a more positive state is an important part of that prescription. Yeah,
you know, I am the first one and I think
real real concern that minutes. It's absolutely imperative that we this is not a moral judgment. This is not a failing, you know, every my struggle with weight occurred began when I laid down those neural Pathways that responded to food
And during my childhood and my adolescence. This is not a moral failure. And I don't think we've made it simple for people. I mean the fact is that the vast majority of what we consume I mean is the problem again wasn't a problem when we you know, didn't have enough food to eat. But in an environment the Plenty this we're talking about these fast car.
Herbs are the poison in the dime and that's not a fault of anybody. That's you know, that's something that we really have not put front and center and leveled with the American public lay down those wires that have me to respond to Fat sugar and soul where I'm cute and true.
Bird and have those brain Pathways. It's the way I calm myself and you know, then it's the way I get triggered. You know, I focus on that chocolate chip cookie, that's going to make me feel better. I want it. I can't get that thought out of my head. What am I going to you know, I always find myself thinking about something. I want to eat while I'm eating something else and what I'm going to eat.
Next and you know, those are Pathways that get laid down that's not a moral sailing that's the result of conditioning and what we've done to
ourselves couldn't agree more. We're almost at a time. I wanted to ask you one question just because I'm not I'm not actually sure if you cover in your book, but I would be curious to get your thoughts on it your thoughts on the the organic.
Conventional movement in regard to produce, you know, because we're advocating for the consumption of pro, you know, fresh fruits and vegetables vegetables and things like that. Do you have any dog in that fight? I mean or perspective on the matter?
Now I think eating Whole Foods I think eating minimally processed foods is is the key eating vegetables legumes. I think that's what's key. No doubt. I mean if you can afford it, you know how that food is grown in the environment what pesticides are used those things are always important, but I think the first step is
To cut out the processing and at least get to that step and if we can even do that we can change the health of this country.
Yeah, that's I would agree with you there and then exercise you are you do talk in the book about exercise. Do you have a specific recommendation or is it more just whatever form of exercise you most enjoy just get out there and do it. The
other thing that is absolutely clear and it's important for a
A number of reasons you can't maintain any weight loss without exercise. I mean that's just the fact is that I that exercise acts as the safety valve that burns those excess calories that you're taking in after you've lost weight. You're a smaller furnace and that gives at least a sink to where those calories can go but more importantly exercise maintains insulin sensitivity and
so when working and that is key to metabolic health I think that you know I think to start any form of exercise is good but the reality is you need to achieve in order to maintain that insulin sensitivity and I know this is hard you take somebody who is significantly overweight and you say go engage in moderate intensity exercise and they have every right to look at me like who Do You Think You Are
but I will tell you in the end of the day to maintain insulin sensitivity some form of moderate-intensity exercise whatever that is is key but that probably means breaking a sweat while you do it and that is absolutely that's as important as any of the other recommendations reduce fast carbs lower your LDL engage in
intensity exercise boy we can become much healthier if we focus on those three takeaways
yeah I love it such great takeaways I guess finally the I mean the last question going back to the you know the LDL and your view and your views on that animal protein things like that I know in the book you have you actually you advocate for meals so it's clear that you're not advocating that people jump
pain like a vegetarian or vegan bandwagon do you personally do consume meat things like
that I do but I'm very focused on not eating processed foods to the extent that that's possible and I am very you know I focus on on my LDL and I'm out there
Sizing a good five days a week. I think they're real people should have choices and you want to lower your LDL more, you know, a vegetarian diet certainly is going to do that. So if you were talking about an optimal diet, and I know, you know, I don't think such a thing exists and you as long as you cut out those fast carbs you want to get your LDL.
All diet. No doubt a vegetarian diet can do that but there are unhealthy vegetarian diets that are higher and fast carbs and and fried foods. So just saying something is vegetarian doesn't mean that it's necessarily healthy.
Yeah, I couldn't agree more. Well, we are just about out of time where can listeners pick up your book for one and then if they want to reach out or Find You On
on the internet are you on social media etc etc
Max has been great to be on and I really appreciate the kind of in-depth discussion and your understanding that there are no Simple Solutions here and there are many nuances but there's a real opportunity to affect people's health and get the word out and make it clear make it simple what you know this things that we don't know but the things that we do know so the
the book is just come out last day in March it's available from you know from all the traditional book sellers online
yeah it's a great book and it's not just a diet book I mean you really go into the science and you're very tempered in your in your recommendations I like that you present both sides I noticed there was a healthy debate on the carbohydrate insulin model of obesity but then you were very quick to state that that hasn't really been
you know that there's there's debate even within the Obesity research community that refutes the you know the carbohydrate insulin model of obesity so it's a really great book and and I also appreciate that the chapters are short so you can for people with limited attention spans like myself I mean it's great you can you can it's just a it's a it's a very easy read for a book that is so packed with with science
I appreciate that
the goal was to cut through all that noise there's a lot we don't know but can we really take advantage of what we do know and you know there's an enormous opportunity for those of us who have struggled for decades with the weight and metabolic conditions and hypertension and elevated lipids we really can affect our health dramatically
Couldn't agree more I will dr. Kessler. The last question that gets asked to everybody on the genius life is more philosophical question. You can take it wherever you like. What does it mean to you to live a genius life
to me? The great opportunity is to ask questions and try to seek answers and try to see if we can do that in a way that can be of benefit.
to others so you know my life has always been about public health and you know some of the great opportunities was involved in the battle on Tobacco and I think this is Battle about regaining control of the metabolic chaos and what we've done to our bodies and try to make ourselves healthier I think it's asking question and trying to get the answers
that's to me what the genius life was
about I loved and I would add to that remain open-minded and always be willing to challenge your beliefs and assumptions
absolutely yeah so well that's a wrap thank you dr. Kessler for being here with me and to all you out there in The Ether thank you for listening to The Genius life as always I value your time and attention and I will catch you on the next episode Peace
